Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022

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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#81 » by LuDux1 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:04 pm

Will Curry will be great defender, Tall, lengthy, fast. Needs to improve shooting.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#82 » by nate33 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:08 pm

bbalnation wrote:
nate33 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:Currently the in the last 15 games, the opposing PG or whoever Curry is guarding is only shooting 32FG%, with only Trea Young and Ja Morant able to shoot above 50FG% in their games against Curry.

Source?

Is this from player tracking data with Curry isolated against these guys? Or are you just looking at box scores that show these guys haven't scored well when facing the Warriors? There's a big difference between the two. First, is Curry actually guarding these guys, or are they parking Curry onto a secondary offensive player? And how much help is Curry getting from teammates? And how often is it Gary Payton who is actually shutting these guys down?


Gary Payton II is averaging 14 minutes a game.

I dont know about the other stats as im curious too, but keep in mind, you're asking the other poster to bring sources and/or context to the stats hes presenting, then bringing up a player who plays a quarter of a game up in the context of superstar guards who play 33+ mins.

Didn't mean to imply that Gary Payton is the primary factor. Just one of the many. Certainly, Golden State has had a long history of guarding PG's with Klay or Iggy rather than Curry. I haven't watched them play as much this year so I don't know if they are still guarding PG's with non-Curry players.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#83 » by bbalnation » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:13 pm

nate33 wrote:
bbalnation wrote:
nate33 wrote:Source?

Is this from player tracking data with Curry isolated against these guys? Or are you just looking at box scores that show these guys haven't scored well when facing the Warriors? There's a big difference between the two. First, is Curry actually guarding these guys, or are they parking Curry onto a secondary offensive player? And how much help is Curry getting from teammates? And how often is it Gary Payton who is actually shutting these guys down?


Gary Payton II is averaging 14 minutes a game.

I dont know about the other stats as im curious too, but keep in mind, you're asking the other poster to bring sources and/or context to the stats hes presenting, then bringing up a player who plays a quarter of a game up in the context of superstar guards who play 33+ mins.

Didn't mean to imply that Gary Payton is the primary factor. Just one of the many. Certainly, Golden State has had a long history of guarding PG's with Klay or Iggy rather than Curry. I haven't watched them play as much this year so I don't know if they are still guarding PG's with non-Curry players.


Sources? You're not wrong. I think its been way overstated though.

So, show me the stats. You asked the other poster to. I implore you to do the same.

I dont feel I have to show any sources to prove my point of it being overstated. His defense this year (though massively massively improved) is showing us that he holds his own without Klay or Iggy.

He was targeted because he was the weakest defender on a great defensive team. It doesn't mean he was a BAD defender.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#84 » by nate33 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:17 pm

bbalnation wrote:
nate33 wrote:
bbalnation wrote:
Gary Payton II is averaging 14 minutes a game.

I dont know about the other stats as im curious too, but keep in mind, you're asking the other poster to bring sources and/or context to the stats hes presenting, then bringing up a player who plays a quarter of a game up in the context of superstar guards who play 33+ mins.

Didn't mean to imply that Gary Payton is the primary factor. Just one of the many. Certainly, Golden State has had a long history of guarding PG's with Klay or Iggy rather than Curry. I haven't watched them play as much this year so I don't know if they are still guarding PG's with non-Curry players.


Sources?

Source for what? Klay Thompson guarded PG's all the freaking time during the last 5 years.
Here's a video of Game 5 of Warriors/Cavs 2017. Right from the opening tap, Klay is on Kyrie and Curry is on J.R. Smith.

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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#85 » by bbalnation » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:20 pm

nate33 wrote:
bbalnation wrote:
nate33 wrote:Didn't mean to imply that Gary Payton is the primary factor. Just one of the many. Certainly, Golden State has had a long history of guarding PG's with Klay or Iggy rather than Curry. I haven't watched them play as much this year so I don't know if they are still guarding PG's with non-Curry players.


Sources?

Source for what? Klay Thompson guarded PG's all the freaking time during the last 5 years.
Here's a video of Game 5 of Warriors/Cavs 2017. Right from the opening tap, Klay is on Kyrie and Curry is on J.R. Smith.



I edited my comments. Klay did guard opposing PGs. Its reckless to say that Steph spent no time during those 5 years guarding superstar PGs though: its not all or nothing in a 48 minute game.

The Warriors were a switch heavy team. Steph is a guard in the perimeter.

What was Stephs opposing % against superstar guards during that time? What about in isolation matchups?

If thats not enough for you, what about when the warriors were bad these couple years?
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#86 » by nate33 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:43 pm

Great. You just ceded that the Warriors are a switch heavy team and that the whole team basically works together to stop opposing offenses. With that the case, why on Earth would you assume that Steph Curry is the guy who deserves to be on the All Defense team? Nobody considers Curry to be even among the top 3 or 4 defensive players on that roster. Certainly Draymond, Wiggins, Iggy, Looney and Payton are better.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#87 » by Harry Garris » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:47 pm

Big J wrote:
dockingsched wrote:This is an insult to true elite defenders like Alex Caruso.


Caruso got absolutely cooked when he tried guarding Curry.


So has everyone that's tried to guard Curry.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#88 » by bbalnation » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:52 pm

nate33 wrote:Great. You just ceded that the Warriors are a switch heavy team and that the whole team basically works together to stop opposing offenses. With that the case, why on Earth would you assume that Steph Curry is the guy who deserves to be on the All Defense team? Nobody considers Curry to be even among the top 3 or 4 defensive players on that roster. Certainly Draymond, Wiggins, Iggy, Looney and Payton are better.


You just told us you don't watch Warriors games in 2021.

I also question your current ability to read this situation with stats, with context because you're insistently mentioning Payton (14 minutes) and 2021 Iggy who isn't doing much moving around anymore, aka the forward role for the warriors and not the guard/perimeter role in this switch heavy defensive scheme, like Draymond (and plays about 20 minutes a game).

What are you basing your opinion on? You've mentioned a youtube video from a Finals game from 5 years ago so far, after asking a poster for advanced stats.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#89 » by nate33 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:58 pm

bbalnation wrote:
nate33 wrote:Great. You just ceded that the Warriors are a switch heavy team and that the whole team basically works together to stop opposing offenses. With that the case, why on Earth would you assume that Steph Curry is the guy who deserves to be on the All Defense team? Nobody considers Curry to be even among the top 3 or 4 defensive players on that roster. Certainly Draymond, Wiggins, Iggy, Looney and Payton are better.


You just told us you don't watch Warriors games.

I also question your current ability to read this situation with stats, with context because you're insistently mentioning Payton (14 minutes) and 2021 Iggy who isn't doing much moving around anymore, aka the forward role for the warriors and not the guard/perimeter role, like Draymond/Looney (and plays about 20 minutes a game).

What are you basing your opinion on? You've mentioned a youtube video from a Finals game from 5 years ago so far, after asking a poster for advanced stats.

That's not the way this works. I don't need to prove that Curry shouldn't make an All-Defense Team. You (or the OP) need to prove that he should make the All Defensive Team. All the OP cites is numbers showing that a handful of opposing PG's have not scored all that much. Hell, he didn't even post stats. He just made a generic reference.

I asked if the defensive stats are from player tracking, which would actually be somewhat meaningful, or merely from the box score. If they're from the box score, there are any number of reasons why all the credit should not go to Curry. You yourself ceded the point that defense is a team concept and the Warriors in particularly are unusually good at it because of how much they switch.

I'll wait for you to prove why Curry deserves to be on All-Defense. I will not be forced to prove why he shouldn't. This conversation has wasted enough time already.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#90 » by bbalnation » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:02 pm

nate33 wrote:
bbalnation wrote:
nate33 wrote:Great. You just ceded that the Warriors are a switch heavy team and that the whole team basically works together to stop opposing offenses. With that the case, why on Earth would you assume that Steph Curry is the guy who deserves to be on the All Defense team? Nobody considers Curry to be even among the top 3 or 4 defensive players on that roster. Certainly Draymond, Wiggins, Iggy, Looney and Payton are better.


You just told us you don't watch Warriors games.

I also question your current ability to read this situation with stats, with context because you're insistently mentioning Payton (14 minutes) and 2021 Iggy who isn't doing much moving around anymore, aka the forward role for the warriors and not the guard/perimeter role, like Draymond/Looney (and plays about 20 minutes a game).

What are you basing your opinion on? You've mentioned a youtube video from a Finals game from 5 years ago so far, after asking a poster for advanced stats.

That's not the way this works. I don't need to prove that Curry shouldn't make an All-Defense Team. You (or the OP) need to prove that he should make the All Defensive Team. All the OP cites is numbers showing that a handful of opposing PG's have not scored all that much. Hell, he didn't even post stats. He just made a generic reference.

I asked if the defensive stats are from player tracking, which would actually be somewhat meaningful, or merely from the box score. If they're from the box score, there are any number of reasons why all the credit should not go to Curry. You yourself ceded the point that defense is a team concept and the Warriors in particularly are unusually good at it because of how much they switch.

I'll wait for you to prove why Curry deserves to be on All-Defense. I will not be forced to prove why he shouldn't. This conversation has wasted enough time already.


I gave my observations earlier in the thread. Read them or don't. It doesnt matter much to me either way.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#91 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:09 pm

nate33 wrote:Great. You just ceded that the Warriors are a switch heavy team and that the whole team basically works together to stop opposing offenses. With that the case, why on Earth would you assume that Steph Curry is the guy who deserves to be on the All Defense team? Nobody considers Curry to be even among the top 3 or 4 defensive players on that roster. Certainly Draymond, Wiggins, Iggy, Looney and Payton are better.


Currently 538's defenisve RAPTOR has curry as 3rd on the team behind Iggy and Bjelica who both play too few minutes to really be considered here. Daymond come in behind Curry pretty clearly shows the metric is noisy and not that useful at the moment. Bottom line is at least so far into the season, there's at least data supporting Curry is currently playing at a level defensively worthy of considerations for all nba defense.

I doubt it'll last but who knows.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#92 » by JN61 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:44 pm

nate33 wrote:
bbalnation wrote:
nate33 wrote:Didn't mean to imply that Gary Payton is the primary factor. Just one of the many. Certainly, Golden State has had a long history of guarding PG's with Klay or Iggy rather than Curry. I haven't watched them play as much this year so I don't know if they are still guarding PG's with non-Curry players.


Sources?

Source for what? Klay Thompson guarded PG's all the freaking time during the last 5 years.
Here's a video of Game 5 of Warriors/Cavs 2017. Right from the opening tap, Klay is on Kyrie and Curry is on J.R. Smith.



Curry pretty much stands in corner as most PGs do these days on the defense.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#93 » by ellobo » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:10 pm

No chance.

Evan Mobley already has all the first and second team slots locked up.
Just because it happened to you, doesn't make it interesting.

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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#94 » by NoBias » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:18 pm

If he gets a nod over Fred Vanvleet I will riot.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#95 » by NoBias » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:19 pm

Harry Garris wrote:
Big J wrote:
dockingsched wrote:This is an insult to true elite defenders like Alex Caruso.


Caruso got absolutely cooked when he tried guarding Curry.


So has everyone that's tried to guard Curry.


Except Fred Vanvleet.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#96 » by JujitsuFlip » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:24 pm

nate33 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:Currently the in the last 15 games, the opposing PG or whoever Curry is guarding is only shooting 32FG%, with only Trea Young and Ja Morant able to shoot above 50FG% in their games against Curry.

Source?

Is this from player tracking data with Curry isolated against these guys? Or are you just looking at box scores that show these guys haven't scored well when facing the Warriors? There's a big difference between the two. First, is Curry actually guarding these guys, or are they parking Curry onto a secondary offensive player? And how much help is Curry getting from teammates? And how often is it Gary Payton who is actually shutting these guys down?


I highly doubt that poster can prove it. Just a quick look at the Hawks and Grizzlies games vs the Warriors, that poster 100% used box score.

Not specific to either example from that poster but Steph gets isolated on defense 9.9% so far this season and is scored on 73% of the time in those situations. He gives shooting fouls 20% raising the eFG% in these situations to 77.3%. Essentially if a team needs a bucket, just have Curry be the primary defender in isolation.

When guarding the PnR ball handler, which happens 20.5% of the time this season, Steph is much better against this play. Opponents only scores 22.6% of the time.

Curry guards spot up shooters 40.4% of the time in the young season, only allowing the opponent to shoot 24%. He only fouls 3.3% of the time which slightly bumps the eFG% to 32.4%, he does well against this play type.

These are the only three defensive play types NBA.com has available through the young season for Steph Curry. The other ~29% of his defensive plays will probably be available as the season goes on and more data is recorded.

These numbers shouldn't be Earth shattering for Curry stans or Curry haters. Curry isn't a good on-ball defender when isolated but can be hid on defense within the scheme so not to get cooked every possession down. He knows his role and is able to execute it.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#97 » by Big J » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:27 pm

NoBias wrote:
Harry Garris wrote:
Big J wrote:
Caruso got absolutely cooked when he tried guarding Curry.


So has everyone that's tried to guard Curry.


Except Fred Vanvleet.


That was a box and one.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#98 » by bbalnation » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:41 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:
nate33 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:Currently the in the last 15 games, the opposing PG or whoever Curry is guarding is only shooting 32FG%, with only Trea Young and Ja Morant able to shoot above 50FG% in their games against Curry.

Source?

Is this from player tracking data with Curry isolated against these guys? Or are you just looking at box scores that show these guys haven't scored well when facing the Warriors? There's a big difference between the two. First, is Curry actually guarding these guys, or are they parking Curry onto a secondary offensive player? And how much help is Curry getting from teammates? And how often is it Gary Payton who is actually shutting these guys down?


I highly doubt that poster can prove it. Just a quick look at the Hawks and Grizzlies games vs the Warriors, that poster 100% used box score.

Not specific to either example from that poster but Steph gets isolated on defense 9.9% so far this season and is scored on 73% of the time in those situations. He gives shooting fouls 20% raising the eFG% in these situations to 77.3%. Essentially if a team needs a bucket, just have Curry be the primary defender in isolation.

When guarding the PnR ball handler, which happens 20.5% of the time this season, Steph is much better against this play. Opponents only scores 22.6% of the time.

Curry guards spot up shooters 40.4% of the time in the young season, only allowing the opponent to shoot 24%. He only fouls 3.3% of the time which slightly bumps the eFG% to 32.4%, he does well against this play type.

These are the only three defensive play types NBA.com has available through the young season for Steph Curry. The other ~29% of his defensive plays will probably be available as the season goes on and more data is recorded.

These numbers shouldn't be Earth shattering for Curry stans or Curry haters. Curry isn't a good on-ball defender when isolated but can be hid on defense within the scheme so not to get cooked every possession down. He knows his role and is able to execute it.


Where did you get this stat? I haven't been able to find it on NBA.com: not questioning your sources, it's an eye opening stat. I want to see how it compares to the rest of the league guards, even if team defenses differ and other variables exist.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#99 » by JujitsuFlip » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:58 pm

bbalnation wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:
nate33 wrote:Source?

Is this from player tracking data with Curry isolated against these guys? Or are you just looking at box scores that show these guys haven't scored well when facing the Warriors? There's a big difference between the two. First, is Curry actually guarding these guys, or are they parking Curry onto a secondary offensive player? And how much help is Curry getting from teammates? And how often is it Gary Payton who is actually shutting these guys down?


I highly doubt that poster can prove it. Just a quick look at the Hawks and Grizzlies games vs the Warriors, that poster 100% used box score.

Not specific to either example from that poster but Steph gets isolated on defense 9.9% so far this season and is scored on 73% of the time in those situations. He gives shooting fouls 20% raising the eFG% in these situations to 77.3%. Essentially if a team needs a bucket, just have Curry be the primary defender in isolation.

When guarding the PnR ball handler, which happens 20.5% of the time this season, Steph is much better against this play. Opponents only scores 22.6% of the time.

Curry guards spot up shooters 40.4% of the time in the young season, only allowing the opponent to shoot 24%. He only fouls 3.3% of the time which slightly bumps the eFG% to 32.4%, he does well against this play type.

These are the only three defensive play types NBA.com has available through the young season for Steph Curry. The other ~29% of his defensive plays will probably be available as the season goes on and more data is recorded.

These numbers shouldn't be Earth shattering for Curry stans or Curry haters. Curry isn't a good on-ball defender when isolated but can be hid on defense within the scheme so not to get cooked every possession down. He knows his role and is able to execute it.


Where did you get this stat? I haven't been able to find it on NBA.com: not questioning your sources, it's an eye opening stat. I want to see how it compares to the rest of the league guards, even if team defenses differ and other variables exist.


Of course, here is the link. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/isolation/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive

If you start shuffling between play types, just be sure to toggle the defensive filter back on, it removes it every time play type is changed at the top.

I provided a screenshot as well just to show you what the landing page should be for Syngery isolation defensive metrics. If the link doesn't work or redirects you, I'll try to see if there is a different way to get you there.

Looks like Steph is in the bottom 4.5% of the league as an isolation defender.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#100 » by The-Power » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:06 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:Looks like Steph is in the bottom 4.5% of the league as an isolation defender.

You do realize that they have captured 16 * 0.9 = 14.4 possessions in isolation for Curry, right? That's not a meaningful sample size by any stretch of the imagination.

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