Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think?

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Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#1 » by dirkdiggler4177 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:24 pm

Jason Kidd might be the most hated coach by RealGM. When the Mavs lost Rick Carlisle I was like fu**, and when we got Jason Kidd I was like double fu**.

Well, he has worked miracles when it comes to KP. In the last 9 games, he has averaged 24ppg, 51%, 9rpg, 2apg, 1bpg, and 1spg. He looks like a completely different player. Rick Carlisle wanted him to float on the outside because the stats showed that was the most efficient way he could play. Kidd has gone a completely different route. He makes KP drive, shoot mid-range shots, post-up, and everything Rick Carlisle considered low efficient. On the other hand, the team itself has struggled as far as stats go. They are 23 out of 30 teams when it comes to ppg and 21 out of 30 on team score differential, being -1.2.

They are now 10-7 after just winning 1 out of the last 4, but all away games against playoff teams and 3 games without Luka. The games were all close until the last 5 minutes.



CLIFF NOTES:
Do you prefer a player-coach vs. stat coach?
What do you think of Jason Kidd so far?
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#2 » by Statlanta » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:27 pm

I think Carlisle could have gotten this out of KP.

I think Indiana is suffering because of underlying problems.

I don’t think Kidd is a bad coach just an inexperienced one.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#3 » by KhalilS » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:33 pm

KP was brilliant in the bubble under RC, and last year he wasn't moving right after coming back early from miniscus surgery. I don't think it's fair to blame RC for KP struggles.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#4 » by anotherhomer » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:40 pm

this is more so KP is healthy....
but Kidd has the street creds to smooth things over with KP
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#5 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:49 pm

LOL. KPs problem isn't that he can't play. It's that he can't stay healthy.

The ORTG of 107.1 is not good.

The past two seasons its been 115.4 and 116.7.

Dallas is 21st in the league in Net RTG.

Winning a few close games seems to have you re-imagining what this team has been so far: a pretty notable disappointment.



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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#6 » by nikster » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:49 pm

KP has had stretches even better than this before. He was fantastic the last 20 games of 19-20, leading up the break and including the bubble. Even from last year the only difference statically is an increase in Offensive boards. Think the main difference is that Porzingis is healthy.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#7 » by reamily » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:00 pm

Porzingis was healthy enough in first round of olayoffs last year but rc decided to shut him down and make him a corner guy
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#8 » by Woodsanity » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:04 pm

Kidd is better than I thought but its not like the Mavs are doing well overall.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#9 » by KGtabake » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:05 pm

In the first season under Kidd the Bucks improved to a 41-41 record and made the playoffs after an abysmal 13-69 record the season prior. They followed this with a 33-49 season and a 42-40 season two years later.
Definition of a treadmill team with no significant upside.
Then they hired Budenholzer who may not be Phil Jackson but compared to Kidd, he's at least 2 levels better.

It's logical that a new coach can bring extra effort from players who want to Impress the coach. After the honeymoon is over, the results won't lie.

Jason Kidd is hated for reasons outside basketball but he's not a good coach either.
Maybe Carlisle is not the coach he used to be but still i would have picked him 10/10 times over Kidd.

Don't get too excited. Kidd will be judged next season. As for KP, his problems are two.
1) durability
2) the fit with Luka is still questionable.
Kidd has little to do with this.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#10 » by CIN-C-STAR » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:07 pm

The head coach's priority should be to win games, not to make KP look good -- unless there is a mandate from the FO to rebuild his trade value.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#11 » by Lalouie » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:27 pm

i wouldn't want either as a next door neighbor
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#12 » by Hello Brooklyn » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:30 pm

Mavs are doing well considering Luka has been hurt and out of shape.

Still early but results so far have not been bad.

Kidd was awful in Milwaukee. But people change. Maybe hes learned from his mistakes.

I certainly thought he would be terrible.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#13 » by DreamTeam09 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:38 pm

Well RC refused to put KP in the dirk action and wanted him to be a spot up shooter or something.

I do feel like Kidd is a better player manager than than recent RC behavior would lead me to believe. I'm happy for Kidd. Keep it up
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#14 » by Wagonband » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:44 pm

At this level being an expert and being a "players coach" becomes very close in value. These guys all live and breathe basketball, they know how to play, so it's quite important for a coach to be someone the players want to play with. Carlsile is probably a better coach in terms of knowledge about the game, but if he can't keep players engaged with his aloof demeanor that value goes down a lot.

I've been surprised with Kidd so far to be honest. I've watched most of the Mavs games, and it seems to me that despite the fact that Luka isn't playing up to his usual level, and despite the fact that they seem to be bricking every open shot, that they are actually playing quite well, and winning games despite the mentioned issues.

People that don't watch the games probably don't know just how atrocious the Mavs center rotation is, basically both Powell and WCS are huge negatives on the court on both sides, and the team being still 10-7, Kidd must know what he is doing.

So yeah so far Rick is the better coach in my mind, but if Dallas stars hitting their shots they might actually make it deeper in the playoffs than with Rick with basically the same players, so i could change my mind.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#15 » by RGM_SU » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:44 pm

HurricaneKid wrote:The ORTG of 107.1 is not good.

The past two seasons its been 115.4 and 116.7.

Their offensive rating is an interesting case for the question of how much of it is coaching and how much of it is players not making makeable shots.

Dallas right now is terrible at making shots considered "open" (nearest defender between 4-6 feet away). They are #26 in FG% on threes at 27.8% and in terms of eFG on all field goals on those kind of shots at #25 with 47.5% eFG.

Last year they were #9 for threes at 36.9% and #5 in eFG at 56.0%. 2 years ago they were again #9 for threes at 35.5% and #8 in eFG at 54.6%.

Especially poor this year are THJ and Dorian Finney-Smith. THJ dropped from 39.0% and 40.6% on open threes the last two years to 28.1%, while Finney-Smith went from 27.8% and 29.5% to 15.4%.

If they'd make these shots at a league-median rate this year of 51.0% - which is still significantly lower than in prior years - their offensive rating would jump up by around 2 points and they'd rank around 11-12 in offensive rating instead of #20.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#16 » by Mr B » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:45 pm

Carlisle and Kidd are two totally different types of coaches. Complete opposites to be honest. Carlisle is superior to Kidd when it comes to X’s and O’s. He’s old school. He believes you must show it in practice and be consistent there before he will ever allow you to step on the court in an actual game. Also Carlisle is a prick. He’s a total a-hole to the players (and the media). He’s very abrasive and holds grudges. Not every player can play for a guy like that. Once you’re in his dog house it’s nearly impossible to get out.

Kidd may not be better at the X’s and O’s but he builds great relationships with players, especially star bigs. Before the season he talked about wanting to put KP in positions that will allow him to play like he did when he was with the Knicks. He didn’t want him just camped out behind the arch. KP had a slow start to this season but has played extremely well the last 5-6 games. And he is playing similar to how he played in NY. He’s moving a lot more and has been healthy.

Carlisle had a very long run in Dallas and it was time for a change. So far the Mavs are in 4th place which is right where most thought they would be (between 3-5). And they are finally getting to a point where both KP and Luka are healthy and playing well. I also expect them to be active at the trade deadline.

So far the switch from Carlisle to Kidd has worked.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#17 » by matt6715 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:06 pm

Chemistry is way better, vibes are better, defense is better. Offense is clunky but I have more faith in the offense being able to take it up a notch than I do betting on a defense that can't get stops. Clutch offense had been better before Luka got hurt. 10-7 in a competitive Western Conference despite multi game absences from KP, Luka, and Maxi (who is a big glue guy for this team).

It was time for RC to go and I've been pleasantly surprised by Kidd.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#18 » by Mr B » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:13 pm

matt6715 wrote:Chemistry is way better, vibes are better, defense is better. Offense is clunky but I have more faith in the offense being able to take it up a notch than I do betting on a defense that can't get stops. Clutch offense had been better before Luka got hurt. 10-7 in a competitive Western Conference despite multi game absences from KP, Luka, and Maxi (who is a big glue guy for this team).

It was time for RC to go and I've been pleasantly surprised by Kidd.

The Mavs have been much better at winning ugly. The offense will eventually come around.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#19 » by PistolPeteJR » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:40 pm

CIN-C-STAR wrote:The head coach's priority should be to win games, not to make KP look good -- unless there is a mandate from the FO to rebuild his trade value.


This is what I was thinking about.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#20 » by bwgood77 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:41 pm

How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.

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