Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think?

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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#41 » by dirkforpres » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:14 am

bwgood77 wrote:
dirkforpres wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.


I said it ad nauseam for the last 3 years of the Carlisle era in Dallas… he is divisive, plays favorites, and is an absolute garbage head coach without a top 5 player on his team.


Yeah, but lots of fans of teams complain about their coach regarding everything.

I agree he may wear out his welcome with some.

However, take the Pistons for example. He took that team with no names before he got there (Billups, Rip, Prince, Ben Wallace) and made them a near contender instantly.

Now you gift him Rasheed Wallace the next year like Larry Brown got, he likely wins it all, but for whatever reason Larry Brown got to take the credit of something Carlisle basically built.

Carlisle did win a championship in 2011 against all odds. Everyone credits Dirk and only Dirk but you gotta give the coach some credit for basically winning every series, dominating the Lakers and Thunder. That took a lot from the coach too to get the most out of an aging supporting cast.

Then his team in Indy looked like the best team in the east that year until the Malice in the Palace and all the suspensions.


I won’t sit here and say Carlisle was never a good coach, because that is ridiculous. I do think it’s fair to say the game passed him up as the game moved further and further away from the rim though.

As for why it’s failing in Indiana, I just think he tries too much to control everything. The Mavs succeeded in 2011 because he finally let Jason Kidd do what he does best being an on-court coach. It took 3 years, but when he finally did it was GREAT. I highly doubt he has given the keys to Brogdon yet or will anytime soon and it’s likely why they look so inconsistent each game thus far
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#42 » by J_T » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:22 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:I'm also sure KP has had similar 7 game stretches in prior seasons.

During last game it was said that it's career first 7-game streak of at least 20 (or whatever it was) points.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#43 » by Trey24 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:44 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Trey24 wrote:Kidd seems to get the best out of individuals but not for the full benefit of the team. Carlisle seems to get the opposite.

I think they both have done "just ok" with their new jobs. Kidd has more talent at the top of his roster.

I think Carlisle is overrated, however, I watched him out coach Borrego with the bottom of his bench vs. Hornets starters the other night so he obviously is still an excellent situational coach. Not that Borrego is best coach in the league but the circumstance itself was interesting, ballsy, and impressive.

The slight regression of Sabonis is entirely on Carlisle though, they barely even involve Sabonis on offense recently as their best overall talent. He had 28 pts in 13 mins to start the season and they have been featuring him less and less since then. Maybe Pacers fans can chime in here. Sabonis needs way more touches on offense. He is shooting a better percentage from 2 this year, but yet taking 2.3 less shots per game.

They need to go through him on offense and instead they are going through Brogdon to incredibly mixed results.


Sabonis is taking 1.4 less shots per 100 possessions. And he's far more efficient on those shots. That's a good thing. The goal of the offense isn't to juice Sabonis' box-score stats.



As evidenced by both the eye test and their record right? Nah. 12 shots a game is not enough for Sabonis when he shoots 57%.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#44 » by LAL1947 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:26 am

dirkforpres wrote:I won’t sit here and say Carlisle was never a good coach, because that is ridiculous. I do think it’s fair to say the game passed him up as the game moved further and further away from the rim though.

As for why it’s failing in Indiana, I just think he tries too much to control everything. The Mavs succeeded in 2011 because he finally let Jason Kidd do what he does best being an on-court coach. It took 3 years, but when he finally did it was GREAT. I highly doubt he has given the keys to Brogdon yet or will anytime soon and it’s likely why they look so inconsistent each game thus far

Agreed, Carlisle was a good coach and still is. I can't agree with saying, "the game passed him up as the game moved further and further away from the rim", though... because Rick Carlisle led the Mavs to the best offensive rating ever using a 5-out offense just 2 seasons ago. We're seeing how bad the rest of the Mavs roster is now as Kidd forces them to do more... but Carlisle made it work with what he had. The issue AFAIC with Rick (+Don, +Cuban) is how they put together the roster: making so many bad picks in the draft, giving up picks for past-it players, moving the team ahead of schedule after getting Luka instead of building like Atlanta. Should Don Nelson and Mark Cuban get more blame for that than Carlisle? Sure. I can't imagine it was all done w/o his input though.

Btw, Brogdon and McConnell aren't that great at being the main play-maker IMO... that's why the Pacers look inconsistent... not because Carlisle hasn't "given them the keys".
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#45 » by DroseReturnChi » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:34 am

kp just sucks. nothing to do with rc.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#46 » by NRSV » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:36 am

Here’s an opinion: coaches, for the most part, don’t matter in the NBA.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#47 » by Mr B » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:25 am

dirkforpres wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
dirkforpres wrote:
I said it ad nauseam for the last 3 years of the Carlisle era in Dallas… he is divisive, plays favorites, and is an absolute garbage head coach without a top 5 player on his team.


Yeah, but lots of fans of teams complain about their coach regarding everything.

I agree he may wear out his welcome with some.

However, take the Pistons for example. He took that team with no names before he got there (Billups, Rip, Prince, Ben Wallace) and made them a near contender instantly.

Now you gift him Rasheed Wallace the next year like Larry Brown got, he likely wins it all, but for whatever reason Larry Brown got to take the credit of something Carlisle basically built.

Carlisle did win a championship in 2011 against all odds. Everyone credits Dirk and only Dirk but you gotta give the coach some credit for basically winning every series, dominating the Lakers and Thunder. That took a lot from the coach too to get the most out of an aging supporting cast.

Then his team in Indy looked like the best team in the east that year until the Malice in the Palace and all the suspensions.


I won’t sit here and say Carlisle was never a good coach, because that is ridiculous. I do think it’s fair to say the game passed him up as the game moved further and further away from the rim though.

As for why it’s failing in Indiana, I just think he tries too much to control everything. The Mavs succeeded in 2011 because he finally let Jason Kidd do what he does best being an on-court coach. It took 3 years, but when he finally did it was GREAT. I highly doubt he has given the keys to Brogdon yet or will anytime soon and it’s likely why they look so inconsistent each game thus far

He didn’t get along with Kidd either when the Mavs brought him back. Eventually he couldn’t deny anymore that Kidd actually knows what he’s doing on the court. Once he gave Kidd the reigns the Mavs were contenders. It’s the reason Rondo didn’t work out, that and Rondo is a bitch. Carlisle wouldn’t give him the reigns.

Carlisle is still a great coach in spite of his flaws. If Brogdon and the other guards can play for Carlisle and buy completely into his system he will do wonders for their career. I don’t think the Pacers have their PG yet though. Not Carlisle’s PG anyways. He’s always had his best success when he’s had a elite PG.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#48 » by Mr B » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:33 am

LAL1947 wrote:
dirkforpres wrote:I won’t sit here and say Carlisle was never a good coach, because that is ridiculous. I do think it’s fair to say the game passed him up as the game moved further and further away from the rim though.

As for why it’s failing in Indiana, I just think he tries too much to control everything. The Mavs succeeded in 2011 because he finally let Jason Kidd do what he does best being an on-court coach. It took 3 years, but when he finally did it was GREAT. I highly doubt he has given the keys to Brogdon yet or will anytime soon and it’s likely why they look so inconsistent each game thus far

Agreed, Carlisle was a good coach and still is. I can't agree with saying, "the game passed him up as the game moved further and further away from the rim", though... because Rick Carlisle led the Mavs to the best offensive rating ever using a 5-out offense just 2 seasons ago. We're seeing how bad the rest of the Mavs roster is now as Kidd forces them to do more... but Carlisle made it work with what he had. The issue AFAIC with Rick (+Don, +Cuban) is how they put together the roster: making so many bad picks in the draft, giving up picks for past-it players, moving the team ahead of schedule after getting Luka instead of building like Atlanta. Should Don Nelson and Mark Cuban get more blame for that than Carlisle? Sure. I can't imagine it was all done w/o his input though.

Btw, Brogdon and McConnell aren't that great at being the main play-maker IMO... that's why the Pacers look inconsistent... not because Carlisle hasn't "given them the keys".

I agree, Carlisle just doesn’t have his PG yet. If I’m Nico and Cuban I’m seeing if Carlisle is interested in Brunson. I would love to keep Brunson but the Mavs could really use one of those bigs (Turner or Sabonis). Is there a package centered around Brunson that could land the Mavs one of those two guys.

Even if it’s not Brunson though Carlisle still needs to find his PG. He’s had his best success with elite PG’s. I’m not sure who that would be of how they would acquire him.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#49 » by Sofia » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:41 am

Kidd by knock out - he has the experience under his belt.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#50 » by feyki » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:04 pm

Everybody is better than Carlisle. Kidd is not a good coach, though.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#51 » by Mr B » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:56 pm

feyki wrote:Everybody is better than Carlisle. Kidd is not a good coach, though.

His team is 10-7 and currently in 4th place. I’d say Kidd is a good coach.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#52 » by GusFring » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:59 pm

Hello Brooklyn wrote:Mavs are doing well considering Luka has been hurt and out of shape.

Still early but results so far have not been bad.

Kidd was awful in Milwaukee. But people change. Maybe hes learned from his mistakes.

I certainly thought he would be terrible.


Agreed, this Mavs team isn't stacked or even close, they're about what they should be. Luka looks so heavy though when I watch him, hope the weight comes off
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#53 » by reamily » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:46 pm

To be fair kp still averaged 20 despite despite forcing to do off the dribble beyond three point line certainly can do better now with that improved shooting. Still defensive liability but kidd is doing more empathy than analytics on his players. As for Ric he is better with a star less lineup imo..a team that will not be upset if he doesnt have score 20 every game..
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#54 » by Archx » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:04 pm

Kidd and Kokoskov, who is responsible for Mavs offense, have taken a step further and made Mavs offense better than it ever was. Problem is, the team is bricking a lot of shots.

From NBA.com stats

Mavs are #1 in the NBA in generating open looks, but 27th in eFG% on those shots. Plus it looks like Kidd managed to "unlock" KP and Brunson, players who will be vital to any Mavs success.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#55 » by vxmike » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:49 am

Unless Kidd is functioning as the team physician I don’t think he has anything to do with it. KP is healthy now and that was Dallas’ #1 problem.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#56 » by monopoman » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:09 am

The mavericks are at a -1.3 on point differential and have a winning record they are getting extremely lucky.

Teams usually don't do well with a negative point differential, and they rarely make the playoffs. When teams like that do they are usually the 8th seed or something. The teams with the highest positive point differential usually are in the top 2 seeds 99% of the time. Good teams should have a high positive point differential, lucky teams can do well with a bad one but that luck usually turns.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#57 » by _qubik » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:22 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.


The Pacers are #12 in the league in net rating (the Mavs are #21).

Even fully healthy (which they haven't been), do the Pacers have a lot of talent? That's debatable.


They probably need a top option, but a starting lineup that can have (with everyboy healthy) Brogdon, Levert, TJ Warren, Sabonis and Turner is freaking solid. Sabonis is one of the best passing bigs alongside Jokic and Bam, he contributes a lot, Turner is a great shot blocker and can hit one or 2 3s a game. The other 3 guys can score in bunchs, Brogdon also is very versatile, can play on and off the ball, is efficiente and a good defender. Dont know why this team cant have more success, they look good enough
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#58 » by jamaalstar21 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:24 am

Archx wrote:Kidd and Kokoskov, who is responsible for Mavs offense, have taken a step further and made Mavs offense better than it ever was.


You remember the offense from 2 years ago right? 1st in the NBA, +6.1 rOrtg ?

Do you think some missed open looks so far this year is the only difference between a 19th ranked offense (-0.9 rOrtg) and an all-time great one? I'll concede making shots, rather than missing them, is what makes an offense great, but that's a pretty big swing.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#59 » by Archx » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:50 am

jamaalstar21 wrote:
Archx wrote:Kidd and Kokoskov, who is responsible for Mavs offense, have taken a step further and made Mavs offense better than it ever was.


You remember the offense from 2 years ago right? 1st in the NBA, +6.1 rOrtg ?

Do you think some missed open looks so far this year is the only difference between a 19th ranked offense (-0.9 rOrtg) and an all-time great one? I'll concede making shots, rather than missing them, is what makes an offense great, but that's a pretty big swing.


Yes, i think it would be a huge difference if Mavs were shooting better. You can't be almost dead last on open looks and have a better and easier shot selection in Kokoskov offense. The difference is also in Doncic. If he played up to his standards, Mavs would look much better aswell. I'm not saying Kidd is a better coach overall but offense is looking a bit more fluid. Also, Mavs have other issues like wrong personal for example... If you're forced to play WCS, Burke and Sterling Brown at the same time in the 3rd Q, you have serious problems. That's a garbage time lineup.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#60 » by bwgood77 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:50 am

_qubik wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.


The Pacers are #12 in the league in net rating (the Mavs are #21).

Even fully healthy (which they haven't been), do the Pacers have a lot of talent? That's debatable.


They probably need a top option, but a starting lineup that can have (with everyboy healthy) Brogdon, Levert, TJ Warren, Sabonis and Turner is freaking solid. Sabonis is one of the best passing bigs alongside Jokic and Bam, he contributes a lot, Turner is a great shot blocker and can hit one or 2 3s a game. The other 3 guys can score in bunchs, Brogdon also is very versatile, can play on and off the ball, is efficiente and a good defender. Dont know why this team cant have more success, they look good enough


Yeah, I don't see it happening, but if those guys could stay healthy...seriously, it's almost rare that two of those 3 are healthy, but if all 3 of them and the 2 bigs were healthy all season plus Lamb, Duarte, Holiday, McConnell, that's a solid deep team.

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