Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think?

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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#21 » by Rapcity_11 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:00 pm

bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.


The Pacers are #12 in the league in net rating (the Mavs are #21).

Even fully healthy (which they haven't been), do the Pacers have a lot of talent? That's debatable.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#22 » by bwgood77 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:04 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.


The Pacers are #12 in the league in net rating (the Mavs are #21).

Even fully healthy (which they haven't been), do the Pacers have a lot of talent? That's debatable.


Well, for starters I think Sabonis and Turner are two solid bigs with different strengths. Then I think Brogdon, LeVert and Warren are all very solid. Then some decent role players in Lamb, Holiday, McConnell, Craig.

Obviously part of it is that Warren is out and LeVert was out until recently..I think Lamb too so they were very depleted but Carlisle was always a guy who made teams better and got more out of less, at least initially when he came in.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#23 » by Rapcity_11 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:11 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.


The Pacers are #12 in the league in net rating (the Mavs are #21).

Even fully healthy (which they haven't been), do the Pacers have a lot of talent? That's debatable.


Well, for starters I think Sabonis and Turner are two solid bigs with different strengths. Then I think Brogdon, LeVert and Warren are all very solid. Then some decent role players in Lamb, Holiday, McConnell, Craig.

Obviously part of it is that Warren is out and LeVert was out until recently..I think Lamb too so they were very depleted but Carlisle was always a guy who made teams better and got more out of less, at least initially when he came in.


I would argue that being #12 in net rating is precisely doing more with less, considering the injuries. Brogdon has missed some time as well.

Also note that Turner/Sabonis/Brogdon have a +11 net rating in their minutes together.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#24 » by boomershadow » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:24 pm

bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.


Our record sucks, but we are like 6 points away from being three wins better. That hurt a lot.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#25 » by matt6715 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:27 pm

CIN-C-STAR wrote:The head coach's priority should be to win games, not to make KP look good -- unless there is a mandate from the FO to rebuild his trade value.


KP has been playing legit 2-way star ball in the last 10 games and has been super efficient. It's not really about 'making him look good' its about 'KP playing well gives this team the best chance of winning" especially with Luka out.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#26 » by bwgood77 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:29 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
The Pacers are #12 in the league in net rating (the Mavs are #21).

Even fully healthy (which they haven't been), do the Pacers have a lot of talent? That's debatable.


Well, for starters I think Sabonis and Turner are two solid bigs with different strengths. Then I think Brogdon, LeVert and Warren are all very solid. Then some decent role players in Lamb, Holiday, McConnell, Craig.

Obviously part of it is that Warren is out and LeVert was out until recently..I think Lamb too so they were very depleted but Carlisle was always a guy who made teams better and got more out of less, at least initially when he came in.


I would argue that being #12 in net rating is precisely doing more with less, considering the injuries. Brogdon has missed some time as well.

Also note that Turner/Sabonis/Brogdon have a +11 net rating in their minutes together.


OK, it just doesn't translate to the W/L, but I think that has some to do with a tough schedule and some close tough losses as well as not only the guys who missed games, but I think Brogdon has as well. Unfortunately between him, LeVert and Warren, you rarely have all of them healthy.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#27 » by matt6715 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:39 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
The Pacers are #12 in the league in net rating (the Mavs are #21).

Even fully healthy (which they haven't been), do the Pacers have a lot of talent? That's debatable.


Well, for starters I think Sabonis and Turner are two solid bigs with different strengths. Then I think Brogdon, LeVert and Warren are all very solid. Then some decent role players in Lamb, Holiday, McConnell, Craig.

Obviously part of it is that Warren is out and LeVert was out until recently..I think Lamb too so they were very depleted but Carlisle was always a guy who made teams better and got more out of less, at least initially when he came in.


I would argue that being #12 in net rating is precisely doing more with less, considering the injuries. Brogdon has missed some time as well.

Also note that Turner/Sabonis/Brogdon have a +11 net rating in their minutes together.



Interesting trend. Mavs with Carlisle (post-Dirk) typically struggled to close clutch games. I wonder if this is going to keep up as a trend for the Pacers
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#28 » by MrGoat » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:00 pm

This is a complicated question for a Mavs fan. To be honest I was happy to see Carlisle go but he was beloved and maybe even overrated because of 2011. After that title Dwane Casey was poached from our staff and our defense has been dreadful ever since. Kidd has been a noticeable improvement on the defensive end when it comes to coaching, but Kidd has also so far been a downgrade on the offensive end. RC also butted heads with a lot of players and I won't even go in to how he ruined DSJ's career. However, right now things are looking pretty good because Kidd was hired to be a KP whisperer, so much so after he was hired Kidd spent a lot of the offseason in Latvia clearly to build a relationship with KP. KP rather than Luka was the number one priority. It makes some sense, Luka is Luka but if this team is to go anywhere with this current roster we need KP to live up to his contract. We can't do anything about how easily he breaks but KP hasn't exactly made it a secret that he's happy Carlisle is gone. My worry about Kidd is that Milwaukee made a huge defensive jump in his first season there but after that it collapsed when other coaches figured out his scheme and he didn't adjust. If that happens again after this season that could turn into trouble pretty quickly. I'm hoping he picked up some new tricks working for Vogel and can make more adjustments than he did before
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#29 » by dirkforpres » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:02 pm

bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.


I said it ad nauseam for the last 3 years of the Carlisle era in Dallas… he is divisive, plays favorites, and is an absolute garbage head coach without a top 5 player on his team.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#30 » by Trey24 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:06 pm

Kidd seems to get the best out of individuals but not for the full benefit of the team. Carlisle seems to get the opposite.

I think they both have done "just ok" with their new jobs. Kidd has more talent at the top of his roster.

I think Carlisle is overrated, however, I watched him out coach Borrego with the bottom of his bench vs. Hornets starters the other night so he obviously is still an excellent situational coach. Not that Borrego is best coach in the league but the circumstance itself was interesting, ballsy, and impressive.

The slight regression of Sabonis is entirely on Carlisle though, they barely even involve Sabonis on offense recently as their best overall talent. He had 28 pts in 13 mins to start the season and they have been featuring him less and less since then. Maybe Pacers fans can chime in here. Sabonis needs way more touches on offense. He is shooting a better percentage from 2 this year, but yet taking 2.3 less shots per game.

They need to go through him on offense and instead they are going through Brogdon to incredibly mixed results.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#31 » by Mr B » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:09 pm

bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.

They haven’t completely bought in to his system or playing style. He needs an elite PG to run his system. Also he’s very hard on the players so they could still be adjusting to him.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#32 » by Mr B » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:11 pm

matt6715 wrote:
CIN-C-STAR wrote:The head coach's priority should be to win games, not to make KP look good -- unless there is a mandate from the FO to rebuild his trade value.


KP has been playing legit 2-way star ball in the last 10 games and has been super efficient. It's not really about 'making him look good' its about 'KP playing well gives this team the best chance of winning" especially with Luka out.

Especially with Luka in too.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#33 » by bwgood77 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:14 pm

dirkforpres wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:How is Rick Carlisle doing so bad with the Pacers? They have a lot of talent. I always thought he was one of the best coaches.


I said it ad nauseam for the last 3 years of the Carlisle era in Dallas… he is divisive, plays favorites, and is an absolute garbage head coach without a top 5 player on his team.


Yeah, but lots of fans of teams complain about their coach regarding everything.

I agree he may wear out his welcome with some.

However, take the Pistons for example. He took that team with no names before he got there (Billups, Rip, Prince, Ben Wallace) and made them a near contender instantly.

Now you gift him Rasheed Wallace the next year like Larry Brown got, he likely wins it all, but for whatever reason Larry Brown got to take the credit of something Carlisle basically built.

Carlisle did win a championship in 2011 against all odds. Everyone credits Dirk and only Dirk but you gotta give the coach some credit for basically winning every series, dominating the Lakers and Thunder. That took a lot from the coach too to get the most out of an aging supporting cast.

Then his team in Indy looked like the best team in the east that year until the Malice in the Palace and all the suspensions.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#34 » by Mr B » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:17 pm

MrGoat wrote:This is a complicated question for a Mavs fan. To be honest I was happy to see Carlisle go but he was beloved and maybe even overrated because of 2011. After that title Dwane Casey was poached from our staff and our defense has been dreadful ever since. Kidd has been a noticeable improvement on the defensive end when it comes to coaching, but Kidd has also so far been a downgrade on the offensive end. RC also butted heads with a lot of players and I won't even go in to how he ruined DSJ's career. However, right now things are looking pretty good because Kidd was hired to be a KP whisperer, so much so after he was hired Kidd spent a lot of the offseason in Latvia clearly to build a relationship with KP. KP rather than Luka was the number one priority. It makes some sense, Luka is Luka but if this team is to go anywhere with this current roster we need KP to live up to his contract. We can't do anything about how easily he breaks but KP hasn't exactly made it a secret that he's happy Carlisle is gone. My worry about Kidd is that Milwaukee made a huge defensive jump in his first season there but after that it collapsed when other coaches figured out his scheme and he didn't adjust. If that happens again after this season that could turn into trouble pretty quickly. I'm hoping he picked up some new tricks working for Vogel and can make more adjustments than he did before

What Kidd is doing with KP is saving the Mavs future. Either by keeping a much better KP or by increasing his trade value enough to trade him for a star that fits well with Luka.

And if Kidd ends up just being a stepping stone to a title the way he was in Milwaukee I’m cool with that. If it ends up with the Mavs winning a title in the long run.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#35 » by Rapcity_11 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:09 pm

MrGoat wrote:This is a complicated question for a Mavs fan. To be honest I was happy to see Carlisle go but he was beloved and maybe even overrated because of 2011. After that title Dwane Casey was poached from our staff and our defense has been dreadful ever since. Kidd has been a noticeable improvement on the defensive end when it comes to coaching, but Kidd has also so far been a downgrade on the offensive end. RC also butted heads with a lot of players and I won't even go in to how he ruined DSJ's career. However, right now things are looking pretty good because Kidd was hired to be a KP whisperer, so much so after he was hired Kidd spent a lot of the offseason in Latvia clearly to build a relationship with KP. KP rather than Luka was the number one priority. It makes some sense, Luka is Luka but if this team is to go anywhere with this current roster we need KP to live up to his contract. We can't do anything about how easily he breaks but KP hasn't exactly made it a secret that he's happy Carlisle is gone. My worry about Kidd is that Milwaukee made a huge defensive jump in his first season there but after that it collapsed when other coaches figured out his scheme and he didn't adjust. If that happens again after this season that could turn into trouble pretty quickly. I'm hoping he picked up some new tricks working for Vogel and can make more adjustments than he did before


What has improved defensively?

The Mavs Drtg rank by year:

'22: 18
'21: 21
'20: 18
'19: 18
'18: 16
'17: 13

Also, Porzingis is putting up very similar numbers to the past few years.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#36 » by Rapcity_11 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:11 pm

Trey24 wrote:Kidd seems to get the best out of individuals but not for the full benefit of the team. Carlisle seems to get the opposite.

I think they both have done "just ok" with their new jobs. Kidd has more talent at the top of his roster.

I think Carlisle is overrated, however, I watched him out coach Borrego with the bottom of his bench vs. Hornets starters the other night so he obviously is still an excellent situational coach. Not that Borrego is best coach in the league but the circumstance itself was interesting, ballsy, and impressive.

The slight regression of Sabonis is entirely on Carlisle though, they barely even involve Sabonis on offense recently as their best overall talent. He had 28 pts in 13 mins to start the season and they have been featuring him less and less since then. Maybe Pacers fans can chime in here. Sabonis needs way more touches on offense. He is shooting a better percentage from 2 this year, but yet taking 2.3 less shots per game.

They need to go through him on offense and instead they are going through Brogdon to incredibly mixed results.


Sabonis is taking 1.4 less shots per 100 possessions. And he's far more efficient on those shots. That's a good thing. The goal of the offense isn't to juice Sabonis' box-score stats.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#37 » by MrGoat » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:24 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
MrGoat wrote:This is a complicated question for a Mavs fan. To be honest I was happy to see Carlisle go but he was beloved and maybe even overrated because of 2011. After that title Dwane Casey was poached from our staff and our defense has been dreadful ever since. Kidd has been a noticeable improvement on the defensive end when it comes to coaching, but Kidd has also so far been a downgrade on the offensive end. RC also butted heads with a lot of players and I won't even go in to how he ruined DSJ's career. However, right now things are looking pretty good because Kidd was hired to be a KP whisperer, so much so after he was hired Kidd spent a lot of the offseason in Latvia clearly to build a relationship with KP. KP rather than Luka was the number one priority. It makes some sense, Luka is Luka but if this team is to go anywhere with this current roster we need KP to live up to his contract. We can't do anything about how easily he breaks but KP hasn't exactly made it a secret that he's happy Carlisle is gone. My worry about Kidd is that Milwaukee made a huge defensive jump in his first season there but after that it collapsed when other coaches figured out his scheme and he didn't adjust. If that happens again after this season that could turn into trouble pretty quickly. I'm hoping he picked up some new tricks working for Vogel and can make more adjustments than he did before


What has improved defensively?

The Mavs Drtg rank by year:

'22: 18
'21: 21
'20: 18
'19: 18
'18: 16
'17: 13

Also, Porzingis is putting up very similar numbers to the past few years.


You have to watch the games to see it. The Mavs took some blowout losses that skewed their statistics but in their wins they've been noticeably better, that may get smoothed out as the season goes on or maybe just they have a tendency to pack it in hard when they know they're going to lose but that's why going by drtg this early in the season doesn't mean much. And KP's issues with Rick really came to a head late in the last season, and KP made a noticeable jump in play over the last 7 games that is better than last season's averages.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#38 » by Rapcity_11 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:42 pm

MrGoat wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
MrGoat wrote:This is a complicated question for a Mavs fan. To be honest I was happy to see Carlisle go but he was beloved and maybe even overrated because of 2011. After that title Dwane Casey was poached from our staff and our defense has been dreadful ever since. Kidd has been a noticeable improvement on the defensive end when it comes to coaching, but Kidd has also so far been a downgrade on the offensive end. RC also butted heads with a lot of players and I won't even go in to how he ruined DSJ's career. However, right now things are looking pretty good because Kidd was hired to be a KP whisperer, so much so after he was hired Kidd spent a lot of the offseason in Latvia clearly to build a relationship with KP. KP rather than Luka was the number one priority. It makes some sense, Luka is Luka but if this team is to go anywhere with this current roster we need KP to live up to his contract. We can't do anything about how easily he breaks but KP hasn't exactly made it a secret that he's happy Carlisle is gone. My worry about Kidd is that Milwaukee made a huge defensive jump in his first season there but after that it collapsed when other coaches figured out his scheme and he didn't adjust. If that happens again after this season that could turn into trouble pretty quickly. I'm hoping he picked up some new tricks working for Vogel and can make more adjustments than he did before


What has improved defensively?

The Mavs Drtg rank by year:

'22: 18
'21: 21
'20: 18
'19: 18
'18: 16
'17: 13

Also, Porzingis is putting up very similar numbers to the past few years.


You have to watch the games to see it. The Mavs took some blowout losses that skewed their statistics but in their wins they've been noticeably better, that may get smoothed out as the season goes on or maybe just they have a tendency to pack it in hard when they know they're going to lose but that's why going by drtg this early in the season doesn't mean much. And KP's issues with Rick really came to a head late in the last season, and KP made a noticeable jump in play over the last 7 games that is better than last season's averages.


The defense has looked mediocre to average in the games I've seen.

All teams look noticeably better in wins and have some blowout losses. The Mavs aren't an exception there. And fwiw, they're #26 in Drtg for games in which teams won.

I'm also sure KP has had similar 7 game stretches in prior seasons.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#39 » by Mr B » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:43 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
MrGoat wrote:This is a complicated question for a Mavs fan. To be honest I was happy to see Carlisle go but he was beloved and maybe even overrated because of 2011. After that title Dwane Casey was poached from our staff and our defense has been dreadful ever since. Kidd has been a noticeable improvement on the defensive end when it comes to coaching, but Kidd has also so far been a downgrade on the offensive end. RC also butted heads with a lot of players and I won't even go in to how he ruined DSJ's career. However, right now things are looking pretty good because Kidd was hired to be a KP whisperer, so much so after he was hired Kidd spent a lot of the offseason in Latvia clearly to build a relationship with KP. KP rather than Luka was the number one priority. It makes some sense, Luka is Luka but if this team is to go anywhere with this current roster we need KP to live up to his contract. We can't do anything about how easily he breaks but KP hasn't exactly made it a secret that he's happy Carlisle is gone. My worry about Kidd is that Milwaukee made a huge defensive jump in his first season there but after that it collapsed when other coaches figured out his scheme and he didn't adjust. If that happens again after this season that could turn into trouble pretty quickly. I'm hoping he picked up some new tricks working for Vogel and can make more adjustments than he did before


What has improved defensively?

The Mavs Drtg rank by year:

'22: 18
'21: 21
'20: 18
'19: 18
'18: 16
'17: 13

Also, Porzingis is putting up very similar numbers to the past few years.

You have to look at more than just his numbers. It’s his fit within the offense. It’s his chemistry with Luka. It’s his movement and his defense. All have been vastly improved since the beginning of the season and especially compared to last season.
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Re: Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think? 

Post#40 » by Edrees » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:44 pm

I assume the Mavs made their change due to first round playoff exits. Jason Kidd will have to get further for it to be considered anything but a lateral move.

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