Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think?

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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#41 » by CIN-C-STAR » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:43 pm

Lonnie Walker.
Great athleticism but hasn't been effective in transition.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#42 » by mattao313 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:52 pm

QingJames wrote:Stanimal Johnson.

Great physical gifts. Bad at basketball.
You talking about Stanley Johnson? He has a muscular build but probably is a below average athlete NBA wise.

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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#43 » by Pelly24 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:28 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
Black Jack wrote:I hate these threads because it always comes down to the fallacy that having the highest vertical means you should be the most dominant. In that case, Darvin Ham should be headed to the hall of fame right?

Athleticism is a multifaced thing. Hand-eye coordination, body control, footwork, quickness, etc. are all part of it. A guy who doesn't jump out of the gym might be able to smoke a guy who jumps really high, not just using skill but skill based on being able to do things with his floor game the jumper cannot.

So - saying a guy is a "great athlete but not using it" misses that jumping is just one part of athleticism for a basketball player.


I think people might take it this way, but I don't. To me, Gerald Green, in addition to not being skilled at all, was also very stiff compared to someone like KD, so therefore a bit less athletic. I would argue that someone like Kyrie is more athletic than PG because relative to position, he has less limitations (mainly because it's more important to be fast, shifty and flexible for your position than have a 40-inch vertical, but be kinda slow).

But if you look at someone like KAT, who has great lateral quickness, vertical and all-around agility and his defense has really never been good. That's someone who doesn't use their athleticism the way I think they would. Dame has good lateral quickness but has always been a bad defender, not even becoming a neutral defender over these years.

There are more. I'd say Wiggins actually lacks fluidity and some balance in addition to skill, so I'd say to some degree he's less athletic than people think, so I don't count him.


You have to look at what they cant do athletically for these kinds of players. Kat is a great example because he looks like a BEAST athlete on some plays, while on others, he looks slow and weak. Kat has a crazy long first step and is super fast sprinting in a straight line. But changing directions he often looks clumsy, weak, and unbalanced. KAT has freaky long legs, giant feet, and a high center of gravity. There are clear gaping holes in his strength profile and his overall athleticism rather than him just not using his gifts properly. Better 1-footed jumper than 2 (like old man Lebron), also the opposite of Aaron Gordon, who is strong and explosive off 2 feet, but looks unathletic jumping off 1 a lot of the time. KAT always looks bad changing directions, especially playing defense on the backline.

Wiggins has no balance problems, but he is physically super skinny, so he cant battering ram to the hoop to any great effect; he gets knocked off his spot pretty easily.


Yeah everyone has some issues unless they're MJ or LeBron. For Wiggins, I'd say that its more than balance, its that he looks like an absolute robot compared to, say Kobe Bryant or DWade or MJ.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#44 » by GusFring » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:51 pm

seems like Wiggins would be the best answer of recent, something clearly went wrong upstairs
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#45 » by jamaalstar21 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:02 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
I think people might take it this way, but I don't. To me, Gerald Green, in addition to not being skilled at all, was also very stiff compared to someone like KD, so therefore a bit less athletic. I would argue that someone like Kyrie is more athletic than PG because relative to position, he has less limitations (mainly because it's more important to be fast, shifty and flexible for your position than have a 40-inch vertical, but be kinda slow).

But if you look at someone like KAT, who has great lateral quickness, vertical and all-around agility and his defense has really never been good. That's someone who doesn't use their athleticism the way I think they would. Dame has good lateral quickness but has always been a bad defender, not even becoming a neutral defender over these years.

There are more. I'd say Wiggins actually lacks fluidity and some balance in addition to skill, so I'd say to some degree he's less athletic than people think, so I don't count him.


You have to look at what they cant do athletically for these kinds of players. Kat is a great example because he looks like a BEAST athlete on some plays, while on others, he looks slow and weak. Kat has a crazy long first step and is super fast sprinting in a straight line. But changing directions he often looks clumsy, weak, and unbalanced. KAT has freaky long legs, giant feet, and a high center of gravity. There are clear gaping holes in his strength profile and his overall athleticism rather than him just not using his gifts properly. Better 1-footed jumper than 2 (like old man Lebron), also the opposite of Aaron Gordon, who is strong and explosive off 2 feet, but looks unathletic jumping off 1 a lot of the time. KAT always looks bad changing directions, especially playing defense on the backline.

Wiggins has no balance problems, but he is physically super skinny, so he cant battering ram to the hoop to any great effect; he gets knocked off his spot pretty easily.


Yeah everyone has some issues unless they're MJ or LeBron. For Wiggins, I'd say that its more than balance, its that he looks like an absolute robot compared to, say Kobe Bryant or DWade or MJ.


I don't disagree with the robot comp. I'm a Canadian who has followed Wiggins since he was 16, and a Wolves fan who saw him try and fail to become an NBA star. I don't think he has a specific athletic limitation compared to Kobe or Wade (or even MJ or Lebron). He's just not in the same world from a skill standpoint. Wiggins has weak handles and mediocre shooting touch. Combine that with a pronounced lack of competitiveness and you have Maple Jordan. Wiggins is a good soldier for Steve Kerr and is executing a well designed role right now, but he's not a good basketball player though. Athletically though... he's pretty perfect. He's extremely light on his feet, moves in every direction very easily, has explosive hops, even accelerates and decelerates at an acceptable level. He could lack flexibility (we never see him get low when he attacks like the uber flexible Jaylen Green), but I think that's his technique more than a physical limitation.

P3 sports had the following to say about Wiggins:
When evaluating Andrew's unique athletic gifts and movement skills through the lens of scientific data, the thing that stands out most is his relaxation and utilization of the stretch shortening cycle (SSC). During the passive or free-fall phase of the counter movement jump (CMJ), Andrew almost completely un-weights himself. There is almost no resistance or coactivation from opposing muscle groups. His relative free fall of 12.85 n/kg is the greatest we've seen from an NBA or pre-draft athlete tested at P3 and almost 2 standard deviations above the NBA mean.


Andrew is able to effortlessly sink into his powerful hips and store a great deal elastic energy, ultimately leading to him being able to produce an insane amount of vertical concentric force.


In fact, Andrew produces more relative peak concentric force in this movement than any NBA or pre-draft athlete that we have tested at P3. Additionally, he gets 604.2 deg of hip extension velocity, which is a full standard deviation above the NBA mean.


Relaxation or the ability to not hold tension is critical to peak power and velocity. Andrew happens to have some of the best relaxation and movement skills we have ever seen at P3. Relaxation can be trained. Fortunately for Andrew he was born with it along with some other athletic gifts.


Special athlete. Basically a 1% NBA athlete. Just a very unspecial game/skill-set.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#47 » by Fencer reregistered » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:08 pm

BostonCouchGM wrote:Bill Russell. The guy wasn't a very good basketball player despite being extremely blessed physically. He clearly didn't work on much of his game.


Long-ago reporting stresses how much effort Russell and K. C. Jones put into inventing new approaches to defense. And of course, whatever we think of the training methods of the day, Russell had elite jumping athleticism, by world standards rather than just NBA ones.

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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#48 » by Pelly24 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:21 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:
You have to look at what they cant do athletically for these kinds of players. Kat is a great example because he looks like a BEAST athlete on some plays, while on others, he looks slow and weak. Kat has a crazy long first step and is super fast sprinting in a straight line. But changing directions he often looks clumsy, weak, and unbalanced. KAT has freaky long legs, giant feet, and a high center of gravity. There are clear gaping holes in his strength profile and his overall athleticism rather than him just not using his gifts properly. Better 1-footed jumper than 2 (like old man Lebron), also the opposite of Aaron Gordon, who is strong and explosive off 2 feet, but looks unathletic jumping off 1 a lot of the time. KAT always looks bad changing directions, especially playing defense on the backline.

Wiggins has no balance problems, but he is physically super skinny, so he cant battering ram to the hoop to any great effect; he gets knocked off his spot pretty easily.


Yeah everyone has some issues unless they're MJ or LeBron. For Wiggins, I'd say that its more than balance, its that he looks like an absolute robot compared to, say Kobe Bryant or DWade or MJ.


I don't disagree with the robot comp. I'm a Canadian who has followed Wiggins since he was 16, and a Wolves fan who saw him try and fail to become an NBA star. I don't think he has a specific athletic limitation compared to Kobe or Wade (or even MJ or Lebron). He's just not in the same world from a skill standpoint. Wiggins has weak handles and mediocre shooting touch. Combine that with a pronounced lack of competitiveness and you have Maple Jordan. Wiggins is a good soldier for Steve Kerr and is executing a well designed role right now, but he's not a good basketball player though. Athletically though... he's pretty perfect. He's extremely light on his feet, moves in every direction very easily, has explosive hops, even accelerates and decelerates at an acceptable level. He could lack flexibility (we never see him get low when he attacks like the uber flexible Jaylen Green), but I think that's his technique more than a physical limitation.

P3 sports had the following to say about Wiggins:
When evaluating Andrew's unique athletic gifts and movement skills through the lens of scientific data, the thing that stands out most is his relaxation and utilization of the stretch shortening cycle (SSC). During the passive or free-fall phase of the counter movement jump (CMJ), Andrew almost completely un-weights himself. There is almost no resistance or coactivation from opposing muscle groups. His relative free fall of 12.85 n/kg is the greatest we've seen from an NBA or pre-draft athlete tested at P3 and almost 2 standard deviations above the NBA mean.


Andrew is able to effortlessly sink into his powerful hips and store a great deal elastic energy, ultimately leading to him being able to produce an insane amount of vertical concentric force.


In fact, Andrew produces more relative peak concentric force in this movement than any NBA or pre-draft athlete that we have tested at P3. Additionally, he gets 604.2 deg of hip extension velocity, which is a full standard deviation above the NBA mean.


Relaxation or the ability to not hold tension is critical to peak power and velocity. Andrew happens to have some of the best relaxation and movement skills we have ever seen at P3. Relaxation can be trained. Fortunately for Andrew he was born with it along with some other athletic gifts.


Special athlete. Basically a 1% NBA athlete. Just a very unspecial game/skill-set.



Yeah it can be hard to untangle. His burst, and his speed and his quickness and bounce are incredible, and I actually think he's very strong naturally. He is light on his feet. But when I see a guy can't play low and get into a sprinter stance with the ball, though, that's a big limitation in my eyes, and I think some of it is a fundamental athletic flaw, maybe even something to do with coordination. It's hard to quantify though. Wiggins just looks clumsy, and his hips look very inflexible. He literally looks like a big lumbering big man a good amount of the time. He doesn't pass the eye test for me in comparison to where he should be based on what P3 says. Based on P3, he's up there with MJ. But in reality, to me, he's merely an "elite" athlete when he should be a GOAT athlete. I think there's also a level of functional athleticism MJ and LeBron have that Wiggins never did. The ability to be running full speed and stop and like jump backwards and square your shoulders up to finish. The ability to be running full speed and make an abrupt stop to catch the ball, and then gather yourself in one motion to finish a reverse layup even though a defender is like 8 feet behind you. The ability to take off both legs equally well, etc. That's why really, even though 2018 or maybe even 2020, I never thought Wiggins was as athletic as LeBron. LeBron is more skilled, but also just more fluid in some ways and more coordinated, with better body control.

I think an example of someone who probably exemplifies what P3 is talking bout while also having this functional athleticism/better cutting ability/agility is Anthony Edwards. Edwards is much more fluid with his movements and he's got feet like a running back in addition to having a 45-inch vertical, being fast af and powerful af. That's an athlete you can compare to MJ and LeBron. Wiggins was never that way, even though he's still a great athlete.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#49 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:39 pm

mattao313 wrote:
QingJames wrote:Stanimal Johnson.

Great physical gifts. Bad at basketball.
You talking about Stanley Johnson? He has a muscular build but probably is a below average athlete NBA wise.

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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#50 » by mattao313 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:46 pm

GreatWhiteStiff wrote:
mattao313 wrote:
QingJames wrote:Stanimal Johnson.

Great physical gifts. Bad at basketball.
You talking about Stanley Johnson? He has a muscular build but probably is a below average athlete NBA wise.

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He can kick the rim. Kick the rim. Mediate on that, holmes.
Eh he had no lift going to the rim or much burst off the dribble in Detroit.

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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#51 » by XTC » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:10 pm

Lockdown504090 wrote:
XTC wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:you do realize he came back from a torn achilles right? it takes a ton of work to do that. hes also 35, it takes a lot of work to have the fitness to be in the nba at that age.


I'm obviously not talking about Rudy right now.

I'm moreso talking about Rudy Gay in his Memphis/Toronto/Sacramento years. He should have been much better than what he was. He's was/still is a solid player, but he never really lived up to his potential.

Part of the reason why is because he loves his mid range jumpers far too often. In his young days, dude should of been living in the paint and free throw line with his length + athleticism.

which is true, but is weird because by all accounts Rudy gay is a first guy in and last out the gym training type of dude. He was just a guy who was trapped in his own mind. could have been a superstar in memphis if he was more aggressive.


I don't doubt the guys work ethic whatsoever. It just becomes an IQ thing with Rudy Gay. He doesn't know how to use his athleticism to his advantage. I don't think Rudy Gay is a lazy player at all.

But if we're asking "which player is a great athlete who can't use their athleticism in game"... My answer is Rudy Gay. Dude should of been an yearly allstar with his length and athleticism.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#52 » by Black Jack » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:17 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
I think people might take it this way, but I don't. To me, Gerald Green, in addition to not being skilled at all, was also very stiff compared to someone like KD, so therefore a bit less athletic. I would argue that someone like Kyrie is more athletic than PG because relative to position, he has less limitations (mainly because it's more important to be fast, shifty and flexible for your position than have a 40-inch vertical, but be kinda slow).

But if you look at someone like KAT, who has great lateral quickness, vertical and all-around agility and his defense has really never been good. That's someone who doesn't use their athleticism the way I think they would. Dame has good lateral quickness but has always been a bad defender, not even becoming a neutral defender over these years.

There are more. I'd say Wiggins actually lacks fluidity and some balance in addition to skill, so I'd say to some degree he's less athletic than people think, so I don't count him.


You have to look at what they cant do athletically for these kinds of players. Kat is a great example because he looks like a BEAST athlete on some plays, while on others, he looks slow and weak. Kat has a crazy long first step and is super fast sprinting in a straight line. But changing directions he often looks clumsy, weak, and unbalanced. KAT has freaky long legs, giant feet, and a high center of gravity. There are clear gaping holes in his strength profile and his overall athleticism rather than him just not using his gifts properly. Better 1-footed jumper than 2 (like old man Lebron), also the opposite of Aaron Gordon, who is strong and explosive off 2 feet, but looks unathletic jumping off 1 a lot of the time. KAT always looks bad changing directions, especially playing defense on the backline.

Wiggins has no balance problems, but he is physically super skinny, so he cant battering ram to the hoop to any great effect; he gets knocked off his spot pretty easily.


Yeah everyone has some issues unless they're MJ or LeBron. For Wiggins, I'd say that its more than balance, its that he looks like an absolute robot compared to, say Kobe Bryant or DWade or MJ.


If I was Santa Claus I would make sure every NBA fan plays one pickup game with a few pros. We have to keep perspective here, if you've been on the court with just total bench players in the league or good D1 starters, you realize how amazing guys like Wiggins who we see obvious flaws (relative to GOAT tier guys like LeBron) really are.

Seriously if any of us got to just shot around a bit with Wiggins we'd come away raving about him :lol: Give these guys their props.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#53 » by IG2 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:27 pm

Most of the guys who don't "use their athleticism" the right way are not very functionally athletic to begin with. Andrew Wiggins is a prime example of this. There's more to athleticism than just running fast in a straight line and jumping high.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#54 » by Liver_Pooty » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:39 pm

Malik Monk
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#55 » by jamaalstar21 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:30 pm

Black Jack wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:
You have to look at what they cant do athletically for these kinds of players. Kat is a great example because he looks like a BEAST athlete on some plays, while on others, he looks slow and weak. Kat has a crazy long first step and is super fast sprinting in a straight line. But changing directions he often looks clumsy, weak, and unbalanced. KAT has freaky long legs, giant feet, and a high center of gravity. There are clear gaping holes in his strength profile and his overall athleticism rather than him just not using his gifts properly. Better 1-footed jumper than 2 (like old man Lebron), also the opposite of Aaron Gordon, who is strong and explosive off 2 feet, but looks unathletic jumping off 1 a lot of the time. KAT always looks bad changing directions, especially playing defense on the backline.

Wiggins has no balance problems, but he is physically super skinny, so he cant battering ram to the hoop to any great effect; he gets knocked off his spot pretty easily.


Yeah everyone has some issues unless they're MJ or LeBron. For Wiggins, I'd say that its more than balance, its that he looks like an absolute robot compared to, say Kobe Bryant or DWade or MJ.


If I was Santa Claus I would make sure every NBA fan plays one pickup game with a few pros. We have to keep perspective here, if you've been on the court with just total bench players in the league or good D1 starters, you realize how amazing guys like Wiggins who we see obvious flaws (relative to GOAT tier guys like LeBron) really are.

Seriously if any of us got to just shot around a bit with Wiggins we'd come away raving about him :lol: Give these guys their props.


I've played pick-up with Wiggins high school buddies and I got run out the gym. Spent the whole run just trying not to get dunked on. We all know NBA guys are on a whole other level, none of us are comparing NBA dudes to ourselves lol we're comparing them to other NBA players.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#56 » by dc » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:41 pm

GusFring wrote:seems like Wiggins would be the best answer of recent, something clearly went wrong upstairs


He's always been more of a straight line athlete. I thought that was evident even in his HS clips. He never exhibited any type of fluidity and he lacked countermoves. And in terms of body balance and ability to take hits and finish (which is the type of athletiicsm that really matters), he's fairly average to maybe slightly above average.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#57 » by dc » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:45 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:I've played pick-up with Wiggins high school buddies and I got run out the gym. Spent the whole run just trying not to get dunked on. We all know NBA guys are on a whole other level, none of us are comparing NBA dudes to ourselves lol we're comparing them to other NBA players.


Yeah the general public still has very little idea how good even an NBA end of bencher really is in absolute terms. Casual fans/observers would probably be stunned at just how good a 12th man in the G-League is.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#59 » by Tor_Raps » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:15 am

Zach Lavine for sure. He should be dunking all over everyone with his hops and skills but seems like he's not strong enough to take any contact.
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Re: Who Some Good Players Who are Great Athletes, but Can't Use Their Athleticism the way you'd think? 

Post#60 » by johanliebert » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:35 am

jamaalstar21 wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:
You have to look at what they cant do athletically for these kinds of players. Kat is a great example because he looks like a BEAST athlete on some plays, while on others, he looks slow and weak. Kat has a crazy long first step and is super fast sprinting in a straight line. But changing directions he often looks clumsy, weak, and unbalanced. KAT has freaky long legs, giant feet, and a high center of gravity. There are clear gaping holes in his strength profile and his overall athleticism rather than him just not using his gifts properly. Better 1-footed jumper than 2 (like old man Lebron), also the opposite of Aaron Gordon, who is strong and explosive off 2 feet, but looks unathletic jumping off 1 a lot of the time. KAT always looks bad changing directions, especially playing defense on the backline.

Wiggins has no balance problems, but he is physically super skinny, so he cant battering ram to the hoop to any great effect; he gets knocked off his spot pretty easily.


Yeah everyone has some issues unless they're MJ or LeBron. For Wiggins, I'd say that its more than balance, its that he looks like an absolute robot compared to, say Kobe Bryant or DWade or MJ.


I don't disagree with the robot comp. I'm a Canadian who has followed Wiggins since he was 16, and a Wolves fan who saw him try and fail to become an NBA star. I don't think he has a specific athletic limitation compared to Kobe or Wade (or even MJ or Lebron). He's just not in the same world from a skill standpoint. Wiggins has weak handles and mediocre shooting touch. Combine that with a pronounced lack of competitiveness and you have Maple Jordan. Wiggins is a good soldier for Steve Kerr and is executing a well designed role right now, but he's not a good basketball player though. Athletically though... he's pretty perfect. He's extremely light on his feet, moves in every direction very easily, has explosive hops, even accelerates and decelerates at an acceptable level. He could lack flexibility (we never see him get low when he attacks like the uber flexible Jaylen Green), but I think that's his technique more than a physical limitation.

P3 sports had the following to say about Wiggins:
When evaluating Andrew's unique athletic gifts and movement skills through the lens of scientific data, the thing that stands out most is his relaxation and utilization of the stretch shortening cycle (SSC). During the passive or free-fall phase of the counter movement jump (CMJ), Andrew almost completely un-weights himself. There is almost no resistance or coactivation from opposing muscle groups. His relative free fall of 12.85 n/kg is the greatest we've seen from an NBA or pre-draft athlete tested at P3 and almost 2 standard deviations above the NBA mean.


Andrew is able to effortlessly sink into his powerful hips and store a great deal elastic energy, ultimately leading to him being able to produce an insane amount of vertical concentric force.


In fact, Andrew produces more relative peak concentric force in this movement than any NBA or pre-draft athlete that we have tested at P3. Additionally, he gets 604.2 deg of hip extension velocity, which is a full standard deviation above the NBA mean.


Relaxation or the ability to not hold tension is critical to peak power and velocity. Andrew happens to have some of the best relaxation and movement skills we have ever seen at P3. Relaxation can be trained. Fortunately for Andrew he was born with it along with some other athletic gifts.


Special athlete. Basically a 1% NBA athlete. Just a very unspecial game/skill-set.

It’s one thing to say his careers been disappointing relative to his draft position but not a good basketball player? You basketball philosophers have to be better.

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