Hoopshype's "20 Greatest PGs ever" list

[ChettheJet]

Maravich was the guard with the ball because he was going to do the bulk of the scoring for his always awful team, so why bother having somebody else who wasn't as good a passer bring the ball up and try to get it back to Pete. Archibald was the typical PG passing the ball but he was the best shooter on those Kansas city teams (and if you're too young to remember KC having and NBA team, you're having trouble with this list). Lenny Wilkins the same. When you add in Walt Frazier's leadership of very veteran teams and his defense he should be higher. So should Dave Bing

Today on court leadership and defense are simply afterthoughts for PGs, there was a time when they were considered floor generals who directed their team and kept the game in their hands. West and Robertson could score but more often than not guided the ball to the guy who should get the big shot. Today Curry, Lillard, Westbrook, Parker just score their team out of trouble and that's not the same PG leadership

[GSWFan1994]

Walt Frazier's speed was pretty dominating and his ball handing was great and he was clutch and gritty.
Think Sidney Moncrief and if you are too young for Moncruef then Gary Payton.

Being faster and having the ball handling to get arround his man got Walt Frazier assists. I don't think Walt was truly great at court vision.

If you are too young for Payton the then Maybe a cross between Jason Kidd and Chris Paul, and Dame Lillard and Patrick Beverly and Tony Allen. Frazier had Chris Paul's ball handling without Chris Paul's court vision but was bigger than Chris Paul.

Yeah, I'm old enough to remember Payton. I've been following the league since 1991. I remember him well... pretty good player, and a very apt comparison as well, from what I read about Frazier.

Appreciate your posts here & on the Warriors board, man. Thanks for your time.

[CobraCommander]

Thomas is overrated for sacrificing his numbers to lead a dynastic team to multiple championship runs while taking over playoff games in the process?

Y'all keep pleasuring yourselves on OnlyStats.com. I'll keep reading stats AND watching actual games for context.

If you switch Thomas and Stockton, Detroit gets worse and the Jazz get better. Detroit loses its leader and Utah gains a guy who can take over games offensively, something they desperately needed to get over the hump.

Thomas isn’t as efficient as Stockton but Thomas won in the hardest era ever....PERIOD

Isiah had to deal with Jordan, Bird and Magic and he has RINGS.. you can’t overlook that or truly appreciate that until you think about WHO this man won against.

But When Neo is in the Matrix and he downloads “Perfect Point Guard skills” when he wants to play against Morpheus’s team, Neo downloads a combination of Stockton and CP3.

[dhsilv2]

Walt Frazier's speed was pretty dominating and his ball handing was great and he was clutch and gritty.
Think Sidney Moncrief and if you are too young for Moncruef then Gary Payton.

Being faster and having the ball handling to get arround his man got Walt Frazier assists. I don't think Walt was truly great at court vision.

If you are too young for Payton the then Maybe a cross between Jason Kidd and Chris Paul, and Dame Lillard and Patrick Beverly and Tony Allen. Frazier had Chris Paul's ball handling without Chris Paul's court vision but was bigger than Chris Paul.

Yeah, I'm old enough to remember Payton. I've been following the league since 1991. I remember him well... pretty good player, and a very apt comparison as well, from what I read about Frazier.

Appreciate your posts here & on the Warriors board, man. Thanks for your time.

There's a good amount of Knicks playoff games out there to see Frasier, he's one of the guys who it's rather sad to see get undervalued given his games are out there for the public to enjoy.

[dhsilv2]

Thomas is overrated for sacrificing his numbers to lead a dynastic team to multiple championship runs while taking over playoff games in the process?

Y'all keep pleasuring yourselves on OnlyStats.com. I'll keep reading stats AND watching actual games for context.

If you switch Thomas and Stockton, Detroit gets worse and the Jazz get better. Detroit loses its leader and Utah gains a guy who can take over games offensively, something they desperately needed to get over the hump.

Thomas isn’t as efficient as Stockton but Thomas won in the hardest era ever....PERIOD

Isiah had to deal with Jordan, Bird and Magic and he has RINGS.. you can’t overlook that or truly appreciate that until you think about WHO this man won against.

But When Neo is in the Matrix and he downloads “Perfect Point Guard skills” when he wants to play against Morpheus’s team, Neo downloads a combination of Stockton and CP3.

How was that the hardest era ever? Magic made like 9 NBA finals. Bird made 5. The pistons, one of the most loaded and deep teams of that era, made 3 straight finals at the end of peak bird and before Pippen had become a real superstar...

[CobraCommander]

Thomas is overrated for sacrificing his numbers to lead a dynastic team to multiple championship runs while taking over playoff games in the process?

Y'all keep pleasuring yourselves on OnlyStats.com. I'll keep reading stats AND watching actual games for context.

If you switch Thomas and Stockton, Detroit gets worse and the Jazz get better. Detroit loses its leader and Utah gains a guy who can take over games offensively, something they desperately needed to get over the hump.

Thomas isn’t as efficient as Stockton but Thomas won in the hardest era ever....PERIOD

Isiah had to deal with Jordan, Bird and Magic and he has RINGS.. you can’t overlook that or truly appreciate that until you think about WHO this man won against.

But When Neo is in the Matrix and he downloads “Perfect Point Guard skills” when he wants to play against Morpheus’s team, Neo downloads a combination of Stockton and CP3.

How was that the hardest era ever? Magic made like 9 NBA finals. Bird made 5. The pistons, one of the most loaded and deep teams of that era, made 3 straight finals at the end of peak bird and before Pippen had become a real superstar...

In my opinion, the time when Isiah was playing was difficult because he was playing at a time when allll time allll time greats were also playing.

Isiah had to win before jordan got going and if he didn’t win those rings at the end of The bird/magic, Isiah doesn’t get a ring.

[GSWFan1994]

There's a good amount of Knicks playoff games out there to see Frasier, he's one of the guys who it's rather sad to see get undervalued given his games are out there for the public to enjoy.

Yeah, I've seen like 4 or 5 of Frazier's games.

I have a DVD collection called "The NBA Dynasty Series: New York Knicks", it has full Knicks games across their history.

I'm sure you've heard of this DVD collection, they also have of other teams: Chicago, Lakers, Sixers and Boston. I believe those are the only 5 teams to be part of this collection. There's a great thread to be made about this, BTW.

Anyway, I agree with you that Frazier has somewhat became underrated as time passes. He was probably the best defensive guard in the whole 70's, and quite a great offensive player as well. And his team won 2 titles in a decade where, if I'm not mistaken, just one more team (Boston, 74/76) won more than 1 title too.

Cheers.

[dhsilv2]

Thomas isn’t as efficient as Stockton but Thomas won in the hardest era ever....PERIOD

Isiah had to deal with Jordan, Bird and Magic and he has RINGS.. you can’t overlook that or truly appreciate that until you think about WHO this man won against.

But When Neo is in the Matrix and he downloads “Perfect Point Guard skills” when he wants to play against Morpheus’s team, Neo downloads a combination of Stockton and CP3.

How was that the hardest era ever? Magic made like 9 NBA finals. Bird made 5. The pistons, one of the most loaded and deep teams of that era, made 3 straight finals at the end of peak bird and before Pippen had become a real superstar...

In my opinion, the time when Isiah was playing was difficult because he was playing at a time when allll time allll time greats were also playing.

Isiah had to win before jordan got going and if he didn’t win those rings at the end of The bird/magic, Isiah doesn’t get a ring.

When was there ever not an all time all time guy? The 70's are really the only team ever we didn't have dominate teams.

You go from Mikan to the celtics with Russell to Magic and Bird to MJ to Shaq vs Duncan to the warriors and Lebron. It's never easy to win, but it's a hell of a lot easier when you're in a VERY top heavy league like the late 80's and early 90's were...and you're one of the really top heavy teams with multiple hall of fame / current or former allstars all together and still not past their primes.

89 the team has Dumars in his prime, Aguire coming off of back to back allstar seasons, Rodman all nba 1st team defense (would win the next 2 DPOY awards), Laimbeer (4x allstar) just past his peak years but still very good.

That's one hell of a top 5 in playoff minutes. 5 guys who all made more than 1 allstar game in their career them all being between 25 and 31 years old (basketball reference age). And that team was so deep than in the playoffs nobody played even 38 minutes a game and only Thomas and Dumars played over 30! That was unheard of back then.

[dhsilv2]

There's a good amount of Knicks playoff games out there to see Frasier, he's one of the guys who it's rather sad to see get undervalued given his games are out there for the public to enjoy.

Yeah, I've seen like 4 or 5 of Frazier's games.

I have a DVD collection called "The NBA Dynasty Series: New York Knicks", it has full Knicks games across their history.

I'm sure you've heard of this DVD collection, they also have of other teams: Chicago, Lakers, Sixers and Boston. I believe those are the only 5 teams to be part of this collection. There's a great thread to be made about this, BTW.

Anyway, I agree with you that Frazier has somewhat became underrated as time passes. He was probably the best defensive guard in the whole 70's, and quite a great offensive player as well. And his team won 2 titles in a decade where, if I'm not mistaken, just one more team (Boston, 74/76) won more than 1 title too.

Cheers.

I have heard of those, but I must admit my video analysis is mostly youtube...the DVD's would certainly improve the enjoyment as they're better quality. Maybe I should look into adding those in a digital format.

I think one thing that hurt Frazier is that a LOT of knick players, imo due to knick media hype and not merit, both made the nba at 50 team and hall. As a result people see those teams as much more "spurs" like than star dominate.

[mitchco]

I'm old enough to have seen all of these PGs except for Cousy. The list is sound, and Yes, Jerry West definitely deserves his high ranking. He was a brilliant shooter (oh, how I wish he'd played in the 3-point era!) and a fantastic defender. I'm pleased to see Lenny Wilkens and Dave Bing make the list. I'd drop Kyrie in favour of Kyle Lowry, and advance Tony Parker.

Nice write up. Please post more! It's always interesting reading from people who have been following the NBA for decades (and I'm no slouch either, this year marked 30 years for me following the league).

I'd like to ask you, what are your thoughts on Walt Frazier? Please tell me more about him. Thanks & cheers from Brazil.

Thanks for the kind words. 'Clyde' Frazier was like a smaller Paul Pierce. He never dominated anyone physically, and looked awkward on occasion, but at game's end, his columns were always full. I suspect if more detailed defensive stats were maintained in his era, he'd be ranked one of the best ever. I don't remember him making many turnovers. A heady player, a coach on the floor.

Nice insight.

How do you feel Gary Payton is ranked on Hoopshype list? Do you feel as though his placing is accurate?

I tend to think he should still be in the top 10.