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What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:13 pm
by ceiling raiser
Is this in the back of your mind? Or just mine?
I'm one of Kobe's biggest detractors, however (I'm aging myself here), I watched Shaq from his rookie season. He was at the best combination of mobility and strength, and his conditioning peaked, however was he really that much better? Shaq really played at an MVP level from 93-94 to 02-03, and was top 10 in the league 92-93 and 03-05 (possibly 05-06 but by the playoffs he was a lower tier all-star imo).
The difference: Kobe Bryant.
Am I nuts?
(To a lesser degree, I credit Phil Jackson, and not facing the Stockton-Malone Jazz.)
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:16 pm
by theforumblue
I read here that any all star wing would've also won with Shaq, so Kobe wasn't all that.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:23 pm
by Dr Aki
Shaq played with a ton of all star wings
He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.
Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.
And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:26 pm
by payton2kemp
You are wrong. Shaq was the finals MVP for a reason, Kobe was the 2nd option on those teams for a reason. Also he didn't play with tonne of all star wings, the only other guy was Penny, unless you're counting Lebron when Shaq was way past his prime lol.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:31 pm
by gabri3l3
Kobe & Shaq needed each other. It's as simple as that.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:33 pm
by KembaWalker
it can be simultaneously true that Shaq was the best player on the team and also that he still needed Kobe to win the titles
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:37 pm
by Cavsfansince84
00-02 was pretty clearly Shaq's peak. Kobe was semi injured in 00 and only an all star yet the Lakers still won the title that year.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:37 pm
by Grumpy Heat Fan
therealozzykhan wrote:You are wrong. Shaq was the finals MVP for a reason, Kobe was the 2nd option on those teams for a reason. Also he didn't play with tonne of all star wings, the only other guy was Penny, unless you're counting Lebron when Shaq was way past his prime lol.
You forgot Dwyane Wade and the championship Shaq won with him?
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:55 pm
by Statlanta
Who got the bigger defensive matchups and attention?
Dikembe Mutumbo, Yao Ming, Greg Ostertag, Rik Smits, Vlade Divac, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Arvydas Sabonis, Ben Wallace
Aaron McKie, Cuttino Mobley, Jeff Hornacek, Jalen Rose, Doug Christie, Sean Elliot, Bruce Bowen, Steve Smith, Rip Hamilton
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:03 pm
by thebigbird
Shaq averaged 38/17 in the 2000 nba finals while Kobe averaged 15.6.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:09 pm
by ImSlower
Kobe was amazing.
Shaq was a world beater.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:14 pm
by Buckeye-NBAFan
Grumpy Heat Fan wrote:therealozzykhan wrote:You are wrong. Shaq was the finals MVP for a reason, Kobe was the 2nd option on those teams for a reason. Also he didn't play with tonne of all star wings, the only other guy was Penny, unless you're counting Lebron when Shaq was way past his prime lol.
You forgot Dwyane Wade and the championship Shaq won with him?
I think the op is arguing Wade is better than Kobe because Shaq was worse in 2006 than he was during the Kobe championship years.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:16 pm
by dhsilv2
Dr Aki wrote:Shaq played with a ton of all star wings
He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.
Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.
And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.
He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:38 pm
by Dr Aki
dhsilv2 wrote:Dr Aki wrote:Shaq played with a ton of all star wings
He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.
Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.
And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.
He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...
maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:42 pm
by dhsilv2
Dr Aki wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:Dr Aki wrote:Shaq played with a ton of all star wings
He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.
Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.
And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.
He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...
maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine
If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:45 pm
by Doranku
Kobe was a pretty clear #2 in 2000 (although he did bail Shaq out in game 7 against Portland), but he led the playoffs in both '01 and '02 in 4th quarter scoring @ 8 ppg on 49% shooting. He was the best closer in the game and you couldn't have just replaced him with Vince Carter or Ray Allen and expect a 3peat like some people seem to insinuate.
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:49 pm
by Dr Aki
dhsilv2 wrote:Dr Aki wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:
He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...
maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine
If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.
teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:52 pm
by BloodNinja
Dr Aki wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:Dr Aki wrote:
maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine
If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.
teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners
Teams also hang division champions banners
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:54 pm
by dhsilv2
Dr Aki wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:Dr Aki wrote:
maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine
If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.
teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners
You know teams DO hang conference championship banners, right? But you're now confusing PLAYER success measured by their team, and team success. They two aren't the same thing
Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:04 am
by Dr Aki
BloodNinja wrote:Dr Aki wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:
If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.
teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners
Teams also hang division champions banners
sorry, i was unaware some teams did such a thing