2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

Moderators: KingDavid, jamaalstar21, Harry Garris, Dirk, ken6199, infinite11285, Domejandro, bisme37, bwgood77, zimpy27

Who is the MVP so far? (Poll Re-set 1/14/22)

Stephen Curry
12
6%
Nikola Jokic
77
36%
Giannis Antetokounmpo
67
32%
Kevin Durant
5
2%
Joel Embiid
22
10%
Chris Paul
7
3%
Ja Morant
5
2%
Rudy Gobert
2
1%
DeMar Derozan
4
2%
LeBron James
10
5%
 
Total votes: 211

eyeatoma
RealGM
Posts: 17,339
And1: 3,926
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
Location: An Indian in Indonesia
     

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1101 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:10 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:My ballot right now is:
1. Giannis
2. KD
3. Steph
4. Jokic
5. Rudy Gobert (controversial i know)

I feel bad for Jokic, if his team was healthy he would be challenging for #1. His plus minus is insane and is almost singlehandedly carrying that team.


Even more controversial that EMbiid isn't in your top 5 lol.


Yea his case is similar to Jokic but Jokic has better numbers.
Sixers have a better record than the Nuggets and Embiid has been the best player in the NBA the last month.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk
Cubbies2120
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,943
And1: 2,872
Joined: Apr 20, 2012
Location: MD
       

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1102 » by Cubbies2120 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:48 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:

Also, he wasn't the frontrunner - LeBron was going into the all star break (according to all betting odds) at twice as likely as Embiid to win it.


Lol, wrong again.

https://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/31038407/joel-embiid-overtakes-lebron-james-favorite-win-mvp

Philadelphia 76ers star Joel Embiid overtook Los Angeles Lakers forward LeBron James last week and is now the consensus favorite to win the regular-season MVP award at sportsbooks around the nation. Embiid is listed at +200 to win MVP at Caesars Sportsbook by William Hill, followed by James at +225.


This was just not Ceaser's he was the betting favorite across all major betting sites heading into all-star break.

Yes, he did slow down after coming back from injury, but at that point the damage was done, and yes, Jokic did regain the lead. But that's not what I said was it, I said at the All-star break he was the favorite. If he hadn't missed time, he probably wouldn't have lost his rhythm, and would have had enough of a cushion to have a few bad games, which he might not have.


I was looking at this:

https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/news/nba/updated-2021-mvp-odds-best-bets-not-named-lebron-james/

That was two days before the break.

Embiid certainly had a lot of the fans betting it (20% of all bets), but the big money (sharps) were on LeBron.

I guess what this shows is that NBA MVP betting can be swung by 1 game sample size. Embiid went from 2nd place (+300 vs +175) to surpassing LeBron after 1 game played on March 3rd. Wild.

In any case, Embiid has been relatively healthy this year and *should* be an improved version of last year, so if he deserved it last year he should have no issues walking away with the award this year. He's currently +4000, so if you toss $100 on it your boy winning it will get you a nice chunk of change ($4k) :D

Personally, I'm throwing my money on Giannis now, because he's a top 3 candidate and has balled out against the other MVP candidates.
When they start projecting & attacking you instead of your argument, you've won 8-)
And1 to Post ratio > 1 crew
eyeatoma
RealGM
Posts: 17,339
And1: 3,926
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
Location: An Indian in Indonesia
     

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1103 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:52 pm

Cubbies2120 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:

Also, he wasn't the frontrunner - LeBron was going into the all star break (according to all betting odds) at twice as likely as Embiid to win it.


Lol, wrong again.

https://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/31038407/joel-embiid-overtakes-lebron-james-favorite-win-mvp

Philadelphia 76ers star Joel Embiid overtook Los Angeles Lakers forward LeBron James last week and is now the consensus favorite to win the regular-season MVP award at sportsbooks around the nation. Embiid is listed at +200 to win MVP at Caesars Sportsbook by William Hill, followed by James at +225.


This was just not Ceaser's he was the betting favorite across all major betting sites heading into all-star break.

Yes, he did slow down after coming back from injury, but at that point the damage was done, and yes, Jokic did regain the lead. But that's not what I said was it, I said at the All-star break he was the favorite. If he hadn't missed time, he probably wouldn't have lost his rhythm, and would have had enough of a cushion to have a few bad games, which he might not have.


I was looking at this:

https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/news/nba/updated-2021-mvp-odds-best-bets-not-named-lebron-james/

That was two days before the break.

Embiid certainly had a lot of the fans betting it (20% of all bets), but the big money (sharps) were on LeBron.

I guess what this shows is that NBA MVP betting can be swung by 1 game sample size. Embiid went from 2nd place (+300 vs +175) to surpassing LeBron after 1 game played on March 3rd. Wild.

In any case, Embiid has been relatively healthy this year and *should* be an improved version of last year, so if he deserved it last year he should have no issues walking away with the award this year. He's currently +4000, so if you toss $100 on it your boy winning it will get you a nice chunk of change ($4k) :D

Personally, I'm throwing my money on Giannis now, because he's a top 3 candidate and has balled out against the other MVP candidates.
Haha fair enough.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk
drdrG
Senior
Posts: 524
And1: 289
Joined: Jun 27, 2020
Location: SF
   

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1104 » by drdrG » Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:18 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Even more controversial that EMbiid isn't in your top 5 lol.


Yea his case is similar to Jokic but Jokic has better numbers.
Sixers have a better record than the Nuggets and Embiid has been the best player in the NBA the last month.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk


Embiid has been spectacular but it's hard to make a definitive case that he's been better than Giannis over the last 10 games since GA came back from H&S protocols
eyeatoma
RealGM
Posts: 17,339
And1: 3,926
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
Location: An Indian in Indonesia
     

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1105 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:20 pm

drdrG wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
Yea his case is similar to Jokic but Jokic has better numbers.
Sixers have a better record than the Nuggets and Embiid has been the best player in the NBA the last month.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk


Embiid has been spectacular but it's hard to make a definitive case that he's been better than Giannis over the last 10 games since GA came back from H&S protocols



Giannis has been balling as well. Everyone is really closely bunched up. I truly believe ultimately it'll come down to record, unless someone significantly falls off on production or gets hurt.
User avatar
GSP
RealGM
Posts: 15,607
And1: 10,919
Joined: Dec 12, 2011
     

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1106 » by GSP » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:38 am

Demar as an MVP player was always a myth. As injuries pile up he can't carry the team like the real Mvp level players. He did good when Caruso was out but now with Javonte, Ddj out and now Zach hurt whatever "case" he had is about to be erased quick. He prolly won't even finish top 10 in voting
eyeatoma
RealGM
Posts: 17,339
And1: 3,926
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
Location: An Indian in Indonesia
     

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1107 » by eyeatoma » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:44 am

Don't look now but Sixers are 3.5 games out of first. Seems to me that it's more likely that they make a move with Simmons at the deadline. As I said before, if Sixers can sneak into the top 3, Embiid has a very strong shot. LaVine just got hurt (hope it's not bad, I really like watching him play), but Bulls could fall back to earth now. Nets are neutered with Kyrie only playing road games.
mediocrityrules
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,812
And1: 1,622
Joined: Nov 27, 2013
 

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1108 » by mediocrityrules » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:00 am

eyeatoma wrote:Don't look now but Sixers are 3.5 games out of first. Seems to me that it's more likely that they make a move with Simmons at the deadline. As I said before, if Sixers can sneak into the top 3, Embiid has a very strong shot. LaVine just got hurt (hope it's not bad, I really like watching him play), but Bulls could fall back to earth now. Nets are neutered with Kyrie only playing road games.


I think it ends up being more of a head-to-head between Giannis and Embiid if Embiid keeps this level of play going. Both teams probably top 3 by end of the season, so it comes down to how they're both playing, and just as importantly, how they go against each other. (in no particular order, i think BKN, MLK and PHL are the top 3 east teams at seasons end, to no one's surprise coming into this season).
Circling calendars since 2021
_NoMas
Ballboy
Posts: 44
And1: 39
Joined: Mar 28, 2021

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1109 » by _NoMas » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:53 am

mediocrityrules wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Don't look now but Sixers are 3.5 games out of first. Seems to me that it's more likely that they make a move with Simmons at the deadline. As I said before, if Sixers can sneak into the top 3, Embiid has a very strong shot. LaVine just got hurt (hope it's not bad, I really like watching him play), but Bulls could fall back to earth now. Nets are neutered with Kyrie only playing road games.


I think it ends up being more of a head-to-head between Giannis and Embiid if Embiid keeps this level of play going. Both teams probably top 3 by end of the season, so it comes down to how they're both playing, and just as importantly, how they go against each other. (in no particular order, i think BKN, MLK and PHL are the top 3 east teams at seasons end, to no one's surprise coming into this season).



Don’t forget the Heat, who will finally be back to full strength when Bam returns on Monday. I think they’re a lock for top 3
Packbuckman
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,349
And1: 535
Joined: Oct 02, 2019
     

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1110 » by Packbuckman » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:25 am

_NoMas wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Don't look now but Sixers are 3.5 games out of first. Seems to me that it's more likely that they make a move with Simmons at the deadline. As I said before, if Sixers can sneak into the top 3, Embiid has a very strong shot. LaVine just got hurt (hope it's not bad, I really like watching him play), but Bulls could fall back to earth now. Nets are neutered with Kyrie only playing road games.


I think it ends up being more of a head-to-head between Giannis and Embiid if Embiid keeps this level of play going. Both teams probably top 3 by end of the season, so it comes down to how they're both playing, and just as importantly, how they go against each other. (in no particular order, i think BKN, MLK and PHL are the top 3 east teams at seasons end, to no one's surprise coming into this season).



Don’t forget the Heat, who will finally be back to full strength when Bam returns on Monday. I think they’re a lock for top 3


Miami definitely in that top 4 with bucks nets 76ers.
When we get jrue back soon and even with without Lopez the bucks will be top 2 in East 16-3 when big 3 play. Thats if Bud and bucks care to be he’s got his players playing less minutes than a team like the nets.
_NoMas
Ballboy
Posts: 44
And1: 39
Joined: Mar 28, 2021

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1111 » by _NoMas » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:35 am

Packbuckman wrote:
_NoMas wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
I think it ends up being more of a head-to-head between Giannis and Embiid if Embiid keeps this level of play going. Both teams probably top 3 by end of the season, so it comes down to how they're both playing, and just as importantly, how they go against each other. (in no particular order, i think BKN, MLK and PHL are the top 3 east teams at seasons end, to no one's surprise coming into this season).



Don’t forget the Heat, who will finally be back to full strength when Bam returns on Monday. I think they’re a lock for top 3


Miami definitely in that top 4 with bucks nets 76ers.
When we get jrue back soon and even with without Lopez the bucks will be top 2 in East 16-3 when big 3 play. Thats if Bud and bucks care to be he’s got his players playing less minutes than a team like the nets.


Yep agree on the Bucks, feels like they’ve had their time prioritising the regular season - and are now in that phase of a championship team whose just getting ready and trying to peak in time for the playoffs. It’s one of the reasons why I think Giannis is ahead in the MVP race, he plays less minutes then KD and Steph, but still puts up ridiculous stats (and all nba level defence)….
Hussien Fatal
Starter
Posts: 2,192
And1: 817
Joined: Jul 07, 2006
Location: N-E-W Jers where plenty murders occur

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1112 » by Hussien Fatal » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:44 am

For the life of me I can’t understand why Jokic is even in the top 3 of anybodys list, sure he has great advanced stats but his team sucks. You have to win to be a REAL candidate, KD, Embiid and Giannis are much stronger candidates because they have the numbers and their teams are way better record wise. Jokic because of team record should be in the 2nd tier with steph, demar and ja.

Btw Joel strengthens his case with a strong win over the Celtics with a modest performance (for him) of 25 13 and 6 in 32 mins.
They call me Hussien Fatal its a two game table im robbin you **** cradle wit a knife in your navel....
JN61
General Manager
Posts: 7,644
And1: 6,060
Joined: Jan 07, 2018
 

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1113 » by JN61 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:09 am

falcolombardi wrote:
SeniorWalker wrote:If Denver can climb just a little bit, I will consider Jokic a lot more.

Right now I'd vote for Giannis, in what is kind of a weird year with a lot of candidates on teams riddled with issues.

This thing is far from over though. Any of Giannis, Jokic, Durant and even Curry still have a lot of room left to take the lead. And don't let me forget about Embiid.

Lakers suck and LeBron is blatantly stat padding trying to catch the cumulative awards. I wouldn't even consider LeBron and its hilarious to me that his name even came up at all, very predictable stuff. LeBron has a literal army of writers and talking heads that refuse to prioritize anything else. This same group said Jokic "can't win" because of team record. If the Lakers make a dramatic turn around I'll eat my words, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that. They really are very fortunate to even be a.500 team.


how do you even statpad points ? specially in a team that needs every point it can get from lebron to stay afloat


Actually Lakers need defense from Lebron. They getting scored on like 120 points when Lebron is center... No amount of offense allows them win constantly with such putrid defense.
mediocrityrules
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,812
And1: 1,622
Joined: Nov 27, 2013
 

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1114 » by mediocrityrules » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:19 am

_NoMas wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Don't look now but Sixers are 3.5 games out of first. Seems to me that it's more likely that they make a move with Simmons at the deadline. As I said before, if Sixers can sneak into the top 3, Embiid has a very strong shot. LaVine just got hurt (hope it's not bad, I really like watching him play), but Bulls could fall back to earth now. Nets are neutered with Kyrie only playing road games.


I think it ends up being more of a head-to-head between Giannis and Embiid if Embiid keeps this level of play going. Both teams probably top 3 by end of the season, so it comes down to how they're both playing, and just as importantly, how they go against each other. (in no particular order, i think BKN, MLK and PHL are the top 3 east teams at seasons end, to no one's surprise coming into this season).



Don’t forget the Heat, who will finally be back to full strength when Bam returns on Monday. I think they’re a lock for top 3


I feel Heat are fourth seed in the east at the end of the season. Don't see them above Bucks and Nets, and if Philly keep rolling I don't think Heat will finish above them. Still plenty of the season to go however.
Circling calendars since 2021
Dutchball97
Analyst
Posts: 3,330
And1: 2,980
Joined: Mar 28, 2020
 

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1115 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:46 am

Hussien Fatal wrote:For the life of me I can’t understand why Jokic is even in the top 3 of anybodys list, sure he has great advanced stats but his team sucks. You have to win to be a REAL candidate, KD, Embiid and Giannis are much stronger candidates because they have the numbers and their teams are way better record wise. Jokic because of team record should be in the 2nd tier with steph, demar and ja.

Btw Joel strengthens his case with a strong win over the Celtics with a modest performance (for him) of 25 13 and 6 in 32 mins.


If Jokic isn't a contender because the Nuggets are 6th seed then Embiid as the 5th seed also isn't in the running at the moment.

KD still being a MVP candidate is such a weird take with the Nets falling down the rankings, while KD is statistically closer to fringe top 10 players like CP3 and Gobert than he is to real MVP level players like Giannis, Jokic, Curry, LeBron and arguably Embiid at this point.

People need to get some consistency with their seeding vs stats takes because it seems there are different rules for different players.
DutchManDanFan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,094
And1: 2,277
Joined: May 25, 2005
Location: Voorschoten
 

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1116 » by DutchManDanFan » Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:40 am

Dutchball97 wrote:People need to get some consistency with their seeding vs stats takes because it seems there are different rules for different players.

I think most of us agree the MVP needs 50+ wins/top 3 seed and great stats/impact.
We are half way and a lot can happen. What is needed for the top candidates to win?
- Giannis: 55 wins (28-10) and it’s almost certain. 50 wins (23-15) minimum.
- Jokic: 50 wins (29-13)
- Embiid: record equal or better than Bucks. 50 wins = 26-15
- LeBron: 50 wins (29-11)
- Steph: top 2 record in the league (clear), top 2 in scoring (ppg). 60 wins = 29-11.
- KD: no 1 seed in East (clear) and no 1 in scoring. 57 wins = 31-10.

If the Suns get to 60+ wins and no other team is close, I think you have to consider CP3 as well. 60 wins = 28-13.
Dutchball97
Analyst
Posts: 3,330
And1: 2,980
Joined: Mar 28, 2020
 

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1117 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:58 am

DutchManDanFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:People need to get some consistency with their seeding vs stats takes because it seems there are different rules for different players.

I think most of us agree the MVP needs 50+ wins/top 3 seed and great stats/impact.
We are half way and a lot can happen. What is needed for the top candidates to win?
- Giannis: 55 wins (28-10) and it’s almost certain. 50 wins (23-15) minimum.
- Jokic: 50 wins (29-13)
- Embiid: record equal or better than Bucks. 50 wins = 26-15
- LeBron: 50 wins (29-11)
- Steph: top 2 record in the league (clear), top 2 in scoring (ppg). 60 wins = 29-11.
- KD: no 1 seed in East (clear) and no 1 in scoring. 57 wins = 31-10.

If the Suns get to 60+ wins and no other team is close, I think you have to consider CP3 as well. 60 wins = 28-13.


It is all relative imo. If all the top teams are solid all around teams without a clear MVP candidate star like the Suns and Bulls then I don't mind the MVP being on a sub-50 win team/lower than 3rd seed. I'd rather see a deserving MVP candidate on an average team win it than a fringe top 10 player on a top team.

As of now I think you could make an argument for any of Giannis, Jokic and Curry with Embiid and LeBron on the rise. KD just hasn't been playing well enough.
DutchManDanFan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,094
And1: 2,277
Joined: May 25, 2005
Location: Voorschoten
 

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1118 » by DutchManDanFan » Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:04 am

The easiest path is for Giannis and that’s why he’s leading the new poll. The question is if and when the Bucks start to push for the no 1 seed. They gave away a lot of games, some because of covid and some because they play so casual. If the team decides to go for it and present Giannis another MVP, I’m sure they can. The Bucks are better than last year, certainly if Brook comes back healthy. It would also be good for the allstar chances of Khris and Jrue. Although if Khris and Jrue become allstars this year it might reduce Giannis’ MVP chances...
_NoMas
Ballboy
Posts: 44
And1: 39
Joined: Mar 28, 2021

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1119 » by _NoMas » Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:10 am

Dutchball97 wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:People need to get some consistency with their seeding vs stats takes because it seems there are different rules for different players.

I think most of us agree the MVP needs 50+ wins/top 3 seed and great stats/impact.
We are half way and a lot can happen. What is needed for the top candidates to win?
- Giannis: 55 wins (28-10) and it’s almost certain. 50 wins (23-15) minimum.
- Jokic: 50 wins (29-13)
- Embiid: record equal or better than Bucks. 50 wins = 26-15
- LeBron: 50 wins (29-11)
- Steph: top 2 record in the league (clear), top 2 in scoring (ppg). 60 wins = 29-11.
- KD: no 1 seed in East (clear) and no 1 in scoring. 57 wins = 31-10.

If the Suns get to 60+ wins and no other team is close, I think you have to consider CP3 as well. 60 wins = 28-13.


It is all relative imo. If all the top teams are solid all around teams without a clear MVP candidate star like the Suns and Bulls then I don't mind the MVP being on a sub-50 win team/lower than 3rd seed. I'd rather see a deserving MVP candidate on an average team win it than a fringe top 10 player on a top team.

As of now I think you could make an argument for any of Giannis, Jokic and Curry with Embiid and LeBron on the rise. KD just hasn't been playing well enough.


If this is KD playing badly I’d hate to see what he’s like playing well… 29.7 points a game on 52% shooting, carrying a nets team without Kyrie and, for most parts, an out of sorts Harden.
Dutchball97
Analyst
Posts: 3,330
And1: 2,980
Joined: Mar 28, 2020
 

Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1120 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:24 am

_NoMas wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:I think most of us agree the MVP needs 50+ wins/top 3 seed and great stats/impact.
We are half way and a lot can happen. What is needed for the top candidates to win?
- Giannis: 55 wins (28-10) and it’s almost certain. 50 wins (23-15) minimum.
- Jokic: 50 wins (29-13)
- Embiid: record equal or better than Bucks. 50 wins = 26-15
- LeBron: 50 wins (29-11)
- Steph: top 2 record in the league (clear), top 2 in scoring (ppg). 60 wins = 29-11.
- KD: no 1 seed in East (clear) and no 1 in scoring. 57 wins = 31-10.

If the Suns get to 60+ wins and no other team is close, I think you have to consider CP3 as well. 60 wins = 28-13.


It is all relative imo. If all the top teams are solid all around teams without a clear MVP candidate star like the Suns and Bulls then I don't mind the MVP being on a sub-50 win team/lower than 3rd seed. I'd rather see a deserving MVP candidate on an average team win it than a fringe top 10 player on a top team.

As of now I think you could make an argument for any of Giannis, Jokic and Curry with Embiid and LeBron on the rise. KD just hasn't been playing well enough.


If this is KD playing badly I’d hate to see what he’s like playing well… 29.7 points a game on 52% shooting, carrying a nets team without Kyrie and, for most parts, an out of sorts Harden.


Not playing well enough to be MVP does not mean playing badly though. Or do you think everyone outside of the top 5 sucks?

He's 13th in EPM, 19th in RAPTOR, 18th in LEBRON, 6th in BPM, 11th in WS/48 and 6th in PER. The traditional boxscore stats give him a better chance than the more advanced stats incorporating things like +-, luck adjustments and player tracking but even there he doesn't really look like the MVP.

Return to The General Board