2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

Moderators: KingDavid, jamaalstar21, Harry Garris, Dirk, ken6199, infinite11285, Domejandro, bisme37, bwgood77, zimpy27

Who is the MVP so far? (Poll Re-set 1/14/22)

Stephen Curry
12
6%
Nikola Jokic
77
36%
Giannis Antetokounmpo
68
32%
Kevin Durant
5
2%
Joel Embiid
22
10%
Chris Paul
7
3%
Ja Morant
5
2%
Rudy Gobert
2
1%
DeMar Derozan
4
2%
LeBron James
10
5%
 
Total votes: 212

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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1041 » by mediocrityrules » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:27 am

slick_watts wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:I can't fathom the argument that says that a player is an MVP candidate if he raises a team that is potentially one of the bottom 4-5 in the league, to around .500. How is that a valid argument for MVP?


it is a simple concept. the nuggets aren't much worse than the bucks w/ giannis when jokic is on the court. why would you penalize him for the team being putrid when he sits, if this is the case?


It's not a simple concept at all. All of this is incredibly nuanced. It's why we have these debates.

I think someone else just posted it, but it's much easier to raise an awful team to mediocre, than a mediocre team to a championship.

Jokic has it easy right now. He doesn't have to win, just put up the numbers regardless and he gets MVP as far as you're concerned.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1042 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:31 am

Can we get a new poll or a new thread please?

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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1043 » by slick_watts » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:32 am

mediocrityrules wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:I can't fathom the argument that says that a player is an MVP candidate if he raises a team that is potentially one of the bottom 4-5 in the league, to around .500. How is that a valid argument for MVP?


it is a simple concept. the nuggets aren't much worse than the bucks w/ giannis when jokic is on the court. why would you penalize him for the team being putrid when he sits, if this is the case?


It's not a simple concept at all. All of this is incredibly nuanced. It's why we have these debates.

I think someone else just posted it, but it's much easier to raise an awful team to mediocre, than a mediocre team to a championship.

Jokic has it easy right now. He doesn't have to win, just put up the numbers regardless and he gets MVP as far as you're concerned.


lol except the nuggets are within 1-2pp100 as good as the bucks when jokic is actually on the court. such a glib counterargument. the nuggets are literally an elite team when jokic is in, irrespective of how bad they are when he is not.

some things never change, i guess. i remember these same talks 16 years ago on realgm.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1044 » by KGtabake » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:33 am

slick_watts wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
my original post in this thread mentioned that in a fair and just world, jokic would win mvp in a landslide.

we do not live in such a world, we live in one where team success outside of the control of the individual players considered for an individual award is an important criteria. obviously, jokic won't win mvp if the nuggets are at or around .500. and that is dumb.


The fact that you can type that, and truly believe that he is head and shoulders above Giannis, KD etc? You said landslide. You think that Jokic is right now so far ahead of Giannis and KD?


yes, jokic is having one of the best seasons ever.


"In a landslide"?
You're hyperbolic.
Jokic is ahead of Giannis in plus minuses(all of them).
Giannis is ahead of Jokic in win shares (all of them).
PER was Jokic 32.2 Vs Giannis 31.7 before tonight's games. Pretty close, one game can change it.
Giannis had a meaningful TD tonight.
Against a primary contender.
He was the better player in the two matchups vs KD too.
He certainly is a legitimate contender.

I don't have a problem in picking anyone out of Curry, Jokic, KD, Giannis, Gobert or even DeRozan, Morant, LeBron at the end.
For each one, i get the narrative.
But "in a landslide"? No.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1045 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:36 am

slick_watts wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
it is a simple concept. the nuggets aren't much worse than the bucks w/ giannis when jokic is on the court. why would you penalize him for the team being putrid when he sits, if this is the case?


It's not a simple concept at all. All of this is incredibly nuanced. It's why we have these debates.

I think someone else just posted it, but it's much easier to raise an awful team to mediocre, than a mediocre team to a championship.

Jokic has it easy right now. He doesn't have to win, just put up the numbers regardless and he gets MVP as far as you're concerned.


lol except the nuggets are within 1-2pp100 as good as the bucks when jokic is actually on the court. such a glib counterargument. the nuggets are literally an elite team when jokic is in, irrespective of how bad they are when he is not.

some things never change, i guess. i remember these same talks 16 years ago on realgm.
And you were wrong then too man. If you're right why isn't it done this way?

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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1046 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:47 am

jokic has probably been a notch better than giannis in a vacuum, but probably not by too much
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1047 » by mediocrityrules » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:58 am

KGtabake wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
The fact that you can type that, and truly believe that he is head and shoulders above Giannis, KD etc? You said landslide. You think that Jokic is right now so far ahead of Giannis and KD?


yes, jokic is having one of the best seasons ever.


"In a landslide"?
You're hyperbolic.
Jokic is ahead of Giannis in plus minuses(all of them).
Giannis is ahead of Jokic in win shares (all of them).
PER was Jokic 32.2 Vs Giannis 31.7 before tonight's games. Pretty close, one game can change it.
Giannis had a meaningful TD tonight.
Against a primary contender.
He was the better player in the two matchups vs KD too.
He certainly is a legitimate contender.

I don't have a problem in picking anyone out of Curry, Jokic, KD, Giannis, Gobert or even DeRozan, Morant, LeBron at the end.
For each one, i get the narrative.
But "in a landslide"? No.


I also don't mind debate and anyone having an argument for why one is potentially the best over the other, but as soon as the words landslide are put up, as far as i'm concerned the person making them has just lost any credibility, especially when they don't walk it back but try and double down.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1048 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:37 am

I have started a new thread with a new poll if people want to continue the discussion and vote in there.

Request that the mods can lock this thread so we can get the most accurate representation on where the votes are.


New thread with new poll
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2156442
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1049 » by Prez » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:01 am

eyeatoma wrote:I have started a new thread with a new poll if people want to continue the discussion and vote in there.

Request that the mods can lock this thread so we can get the most accurate representation on where the votes are.


New thread with new poll
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2156442

I reset the poll here, don't need a new thread, we're barely over 50 pages here.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1050 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:07 am

Prez wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:I have started a new thread with a new poll if people want to continue the discussion and vote in there.

Request that the mods can lock this thread so we can get the most accurate representation on where the votes are.


New thread with new poll
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2156442

I reset the poll here, don't need a new thread, we're barely over 50 pages here.
Ok cool thanks

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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1051 » by Infinite Llamas » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:40 am

mediocrityrules wrote:I can't fathom the argument that says that a player is an MVP candidate if he raises a team that is potentially one of the bottom 4-5 in the league, to around .500. How is that a valid argument for MVP? Especially looking at the other candidates and what they are also able to do and how they bring their teams up.

Jokic needs to have his team doing more to be in the top 3-4 players right now. He can't have his team go backwards from last year and win again. Voters aren't that stupid.


It’s all hypothetical but Giannis and the Bucks are barely a .500 team with Aaron Gordon as his second best player. Teammates matter. Giannis and Jokic have similar impact and importance, but Giannis has better teammates. That’s pretty much the gist of it.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1052 » by mediocrityrules » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:54 am

Infinite Llamas wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:I can't fathom the argument that says that a player is an MVP candidate if he raises a team that is potentially one of the bottom 4-5 in the league, to around .500. How is that a valid argument for MVP? Especially looking at the other candidates and what they are also able to do and how they bring their teams up.

Jokic needs to have his team doing more to be in the top 3-4 players right now. He can't have his team go backwards from last year and win again. Voters aren't that stupid.


It’s all hypothetical but Giannis and the Bucks are barely a .500 team with Aaron Gordon as his second best player. Teammates matter. Giannis and Jokic have similar impact and importance, but Giannis has better teammates. That’s pretty much the gist of it.


You're right, it's all hypothetical, which allows us to argue ad nauseam.

But somewhere we need to draw a line on what makes someone an MVP. The last few pages or so have gravitated towards a foundational measure being that teams have a certain number of wins/ladder position, because ultimate success in this game is shown by winning when it counts.

Do we then apply that to everyone but Jokic? Or do we throw winning out the window for this discussion, and focus solely on the individual?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1053 » by Mr Puddles » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:02 am

Appreciate you resetting the poll, but Ja Morant should really be on there as an option.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1054 » by Infinite Llamas » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:17 am

mediocrityrules wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:I can't fathom the argument that says that a player is an MVP candidate if he raises a team that is potentially one of the bottom 4-5 in the league, to around .500. How is that a valid argument for MVP? Especially looking at the other candidates and what they are also able to do and how they bring their teams up.

Jokic needs to have his team doing more to be in the top 3-4 players right now. He can't have his team go backwards from last year and win again. Voters aren't that stupid.


It’s all hypothetical but Giannis and the Bucks are barely a .500 team with Aaron Gordon as his second best player. Teammates matter. Giannis and Jokic have similar impact and importance, but Giannis has better teammates. That’s pretty much the gist of it.


You're right, it's all hypothetical, which allows us to argue ad nauseam.

But somewhere we need to draw a line on what makes someone an MVP. The last few pages or so have gravitated towards a foundational measure being that teams have a certain number of wins/ladder position, because ultimate success in this game is shown by winning when it counts.

Do we then apply that to everyone but Jokic? Or do we throw winning out the window for this discussion, and focus solely on the individual?


I mean, if we’re being honest, it’s most valuable player. Not most valuable team. The focus has to be on the individual first and team record second. Jokic, Giannis and KD are all very close but I prefer Jokic simply because I think he has the biggest challenge and burden. You can make a case for any of these guys but no one is running away with it this year. It’s gonna be a pretty close race I think.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1055 » by Cubbies2120 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:27 am

mediocrityrules wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:I can't fathom the argument that says that a player is an MVP candidate if he raises a team that is potentially one of the bottom 4-5 in the league, to around .500. How is that a valid argument for MVP? Especially looking at the other candidates and what they are also able to do and how they bring their teams up.

Jokic needs to have his team doing more to be in the top 3-4 players right now. He can't have his team go backwards from last year and win again. Voters aren't that stupid.


It’s all hypothetical but Giannis and the Bucks are barely a .500 team with Aaron Gordon as his second best player. Teammates matter. Giannis and Jokic have similar impact and importance, but Giannis has better teammates. That’s pretty much the gist of it.


You're right, it's all hypothetical, which allows us to argue ad nauseam.

But somewhere we need to draw a line on what makes someone an MVP. The last few pages or so have gravitated towards a foundational measure being that teams have a certain number of wins/ladder position, because ultimate success in this game is shown by winning when it counts.

Do we then apply that to everyone but Jokic? Or do we throw winning out the window for this discussion, and focus solely on the individual?


Would ladder position be relative to their conference or the NBA? In a hypothetical:

West is separated by 1 win from 1-8 seed.

Jokic finishes 8th (1 win behind 1st seed). Giannis finishes 2nd in East (3 wins less than Nuggets, but 10 games out of first in the East). Jokic's team is the 9th best team, while Giannis is on the 10th best team, but due to conference, one has a higher "ladder"?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1056 » by _NoMas » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:01 am

WhatTheBuck wrote:Giannis 30 / 12 / 11 and 3 Blocks
Curry 12 / 8 / 4 / 2 Steals and lots of gravity, presence and something you just can't put your finger on.

I predict Curry will add to his MVP votes in this thread after this match.


Plus a game high (or is it technically a game low) -25 plus/minus… I’m sure that is somehow a feather in stephs MVP cap…
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1057 » by Freighttrain » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:30 am

WhatTheBuck wrote:Giannis 30 / 12 / 11 and 3 Blocks
Curry 12 / 8 / 4 / 2 Steals and lots of gravity, presence and something you just can't put your finger on.

I predict Curry will add to his MVP votes in this thread after this match.


You could also make ur case without having to be toxic about Curry. He's been in a slump for about a month now, but their team is still 2nd in the west whilst the Bucks have 17 Losses and are currently 4th. Still not that great team wise I'd say. Curious about the next time the Bucks face the Nets with KD & Giannis both playing & the Sixers with Embiid. That'll tell me something more than this game which was a blowout in the first half.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1058 » by The Lazy Potato » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:27 am

eyeatoma wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Are you really an MVP if the best you can do is raise your team to .500?

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yes, he's raising his team to .500 from worst in the league. they are +8.0pp100 or something when he's in the game. that's a 21pp100 swing, which is absurd.

think about it. why do you even care about team record when it comes to mvp? the reason is that the most valuable players make their teams better. jokic makes his team better, objectively, more than anyone else this season, by far. only giannis is even in the same universe as him.

jokic has no control over what happens when he is not in the game, when the nuggets play like the worst team in the nba. it's silly to ignore this and just point to the team's record.
There are plenty of MVP candidates that raise their team from .500 or just below to best in the league.

Giannis, Embiid, Durant, etc.

Let's also look historically, most MVPs are on a very good team. Westbrook and Jokic being the rare exception. I think for Jokic to win it two years in a row he'll need to make his team better not worse than last year. Yes they're missing MPJ and Murray, but I just don't see voters doing it twice in a row.

Nash and Curry did it back to back and those were very good teams.

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Also Giannis did it most recently, back to back MVP i mean.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1059 » by The Lazy Potato » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:30 am

I think fans here wasting too much time talking about Jokic winning another MVP this season. It's not gonna happen guys, get over it. Team success really matters and winning back to back MVP is not something that happening often. Don't waste your time with mentioning Jokic this year, voters will not vote for him. Just move to the next guy pls. It's really a race of 3 guys, Giannis, Curry or KD ( Also in this order right now)
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#1060 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:36 am

The Lazy Potato wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
yes, he's raising his team to .500 from worst in the league. they are +8.0pp100 or something when he's in the game. that's a 21pp100 swing, which is absurd.

think about it. why do you even care about team record when it comes to mvp? the reason is that the most valuable players make their teams better. jokic makes his team better, objectively, more than anyone else this season, by far. only giannis is even in the same universe as him.

jokic has no control over what happens when he is not in the game, when the nuggets play like the worst team in the nba. it's silly to ignore this and just point to the team's record.
There are plenty of MVP candidates that raise their team from .500 or just below to best in the league.

Giannis, Embiid, Durant, etc.

Let's also look historically, most MVPs are on a very good team. Westbrook and Jokic being the rare exception. I think for Jokic to win it two years in a row he'll need to make his team better not worse than last year. Yes they're missing MPJ and Murray, but I just don't see voters doing it twice in a row.

Nash and Curry did it back to back and those were very good teams.

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Also Giannis did it most recently, back to back MVP i mean.
Yup

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