2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4)

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Which three rookies impress you the most? (vote for up to 3)

Cade Cunningham
70
12%
Jalen Green
3
0%
Evan Mobley
168
28%
Scottie Barnes
146
24%
Josh Giddey
45
7%
Franz Wagner
103
17%
Alperen Sengun
38
6%
Chris Duarte
5
1%
Davion Mitchell
4
1%
Other
20
3%
 
Total votes: 602

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#821 » by srhcan » Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:43 pm

toooskies wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:Notice how you had to go all the way back to 2003 to come up with an example.


Oh, I could have very easily come up with something far more recent. But this is the best example.

Also, notice how you still have yet to come up with an actual example because none exist.

LoveMyRaps wrote:And even then, Cavs had a record of 35-47 that season which is not nearly as bad as what the Magic & Pistons are on pace for this season (14 & 19 wins respectively). Yes, the Nuggets had a better record of 43-39. But LeBron also had Melo beat in most of the major statistical categories.
PTS: Tie (21ppg)
RPG: Tie (5.5 vs 6.1)
APG: LeBron
SPG: LeBron
BPG: LeBron


Carmelo had better efficiency, not to mention he, you know, led his team to the playoffs, while LeBron didn't. You want to sit here and pretend like LeBron leading in the respective categories you mentioned matters. No one at the time really cared about LeBron's stats. That wasn't what made him stand out as a rookie. It was the way he changed the entire way the Cavaliers played and how much better they were when he was on the floor. That's how people are evaluating Mobley right now. It's just a coincidence that it's resulting in wins (being that good tends to help).

At some point you need to stop coming up with excuses. It's okay to admit that Mobley has been the superior rookie, I don't know why Raptor fans are so bent out of shape about that.

Unlike the Lebron/Carmelo cases, where in each case each team improved, it was easy to see that Lebron and Carmelo were the best players on the teams and deserved the credit for the improvement. In Mobley and Barnes's cases, though, they're not the best players on their teams and may not deserve most or even some of the credit for their teams' improvement. There are at least a half dozen reasons for the Cavs to be better this year than last (Garland's development, Allen's development, relative health/deeper roster, Rubio, Love/Osman rejuvenation, roster stability, no KPJ or Drummond drama, etc.) that have very little to nothing to do with Mobley.
I am very surprised by Love's rejuvenation. He was in beast mode in Dec and I think was among top 3 players of East in Dec along with Embiid and DeRozen.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#822 » by LoveMyRaps » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:16 pm

TheLand13 wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:Notice how you had to go all the way back to 2003 to come up with an example.


Oh, I could have very easily come up with something far more recent. But this is the best example.

Also, notice how you still have yet to come up with an actual example because none exist.

LoveMyRaps wrote:And even then, Cavs had a record of 35-47 that season which is not nearly as bad as what the Magic & Pistons are on pace for this season (14 & 19 wins respectively). Yes, the Nuggets had a better record of 43-39. But LeBron also had Melo beat in most of the major statistical categories.
PTS: Tie (21ppg)
RPG: Tie (5.5 vs 6.1)
APG: LeBron
SPG: LeBron
BPG: LeBron


Carmelo had better efficiency, not to mention he, you know, led his team to the playoffs, while LeBron didn't. You want to sit here and pretend like LeBron leading in the respective categories you mentioned matters. No one at the time really cared about LeBron's stats. That wasn't what made him stand out as a rookie. It was the way he changed the entire way the Cavaliers played and how much better they were when he was on the floor. That's how people are evaluating Mobley right now. It's just a coincidence that it's resulting in wins (being that good tends to help).

At some point you need to stop coming up with excuses. It's okay to admit that Mobley has been the superior rookie, I don't know why Raptor fans are so bent out of shape about that.


Wtf ? When was I ever arguing against that? What exactly was I making excuses for?

All I said initially was that if all of the rookies have very similar stats at the end of the season (which they do currently and this happens to be one of those closest ROTY races in a very long time), then those that actually helped their team win more games should be favored (i.e. team records should serve as a tiebreaker). That’s not rocket science, that’s how it’s always been. If anything I was only strengthening Mobley’s case by suggesting that if Wagner and Cade post similar or slightly better numbers at the end of the season, he should be favored because he actually helped his team win games.

But you decide to lash out on Raptors fans (like you always do) for having a civilized discussion. Seek some help…You reek of insecurity.

I could care less about Barnes not winning the ROTY (and don’t expect him to since the Raptors are now healthy) and I clearly stated a couple days ago that Mobley is the front runner.

People like yourself make this thread toxic. You constantly pump one guy and dump the others. Your post history makes that abundantly clear.

Have a good day.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#823 » by NirvanaFC » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:01 pm

K_chile22 wrote:
ocelot17 wrote:Best rookie center.

Read on Twitter
?s=21
I just looked through the draft again and Jesus there is absolutely no competition there since Mobley has been a 4

I'm gonna start watching the Rockets once they get rid of KPJ and Wood
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#824 » by TheLand13 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:56 pm

LoveMyRaps wrote:All I said initially was that if all of the rookies have very similar stats at the end of the season (which they do currently and this happens to be one of those closest ROTY races in a very long time), then those that actually helped their team win more games should be favored (i.e. team records should serve as a tiebreaker). That’s not rocket science, that’s how it’s always been.


And that's where the disconnect is because, once again, no it's not. It's never been like that. And the fact that you haven't come up with a single example to support this theory says it all. I'm not reading the rest of your post. If you can't give me any valid examples, I'm not going to continue to waste my team reading your post. Give me an example or just admit you're wrong.

toooskies wrote:Unlike the Lebron/Carmelo cases, where in each case each team improved, it was easy to see that Lebron and Carmelo were the best players on the teams and deserved the credit for the improvement. In Mobley and Barnes's cases, though, they're not the best players on their teams and may not deserve most or even some of the credit for their teams' improvement. There are at least a half dozen reasons for the Cavs to be better this year than last (Garland's development, Allen's development, relative health/deeper roster, Rubio, Love/Osman rejuvenation, roster stability, no KPJ or Drummond drama, etc.) that have very little to nothing to do with Mobley.


Here's where the difference is though. For one thing, I would definitely argue that Mobley has had a far bigger impact in Cleveland's improvement than Barnes has in regards to Toronto (if it's there). And more importantly, while Mobley might not have been the biggest reason for Cleveland's improvement (a point in which I agree with), the fact that his impact is this noticeable despite being on the same team as two other players who are having breakout seasons says a lot about how well he's played so far.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#825 » by basketballRob » Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:06 am

Suggs playing tomorrow.

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#826 » by srhcan » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:06 am

TheLand13 wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:All I said initially was that if all of the rookies have very similar stats at the end of the season (which they do currently and this happens to be one of those closest ROTY races in a very long time), then those that actually helped their team win more games should be favored (i.e. team records should serve as a tiebreaker). That’s not rocket science, that’s how it’s always been.


And that's where the disconnect is because, once again, no it's not. It's never been like that. And the fact that you haven't come up with a single example to support this theory says it all. I'm not reading the rest of your post. If you can't give me any valid examples, I'm not going to continue to waste my team reading your post. Give me an example or just admit you're wrong.

toooskies wrote:Unlike the Lebron/Carmelo cases, where in each case each team improved, it was easy to see that Lebron and Carmelo were the best players on the teams and deserved the credit for the improvement. In Mobley and Barnes's cases, though, they're not the best players on their teams and may not deserve most or even some of the credit for their teams' improvement. There are at least a half dozen reasons for the Cavs to be better this year than last (Garland's development, Allen's development, relative health/deeper roster, Rubio, Love/Osman rejuvenation, roster stability, no KPJ or Drummond drama, etc.) that have very little to nothing to do with Mobley.


Here's where the difference is though. For one thing, I would definitely argue that Mobley has had a far bigger impact in Cleveland's improvement than Barnes has in regards to Toronto (if it's there). And more importantly, while Mobley might not have been the biggest reason for Cleveland's improvement (a point in which I agree with), the fact that his impact is this noticeable despite being on the same team as two other players who are having breakout seasons says a lot about how well he's played so far.

He has shown multiple examples but its either you dont want to understand it or you are just incapable. Anyway its not worth wasting time on this matter.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#827 » by srhcan » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:07 am

basketballRob wrote:Suggs playing tomorrow.

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Back with a bang? he is very competitive and would be dying to come back to court and shut up the nay sayers
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#828 » by TheLand13 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:47 am

srhcan wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:All I said initially was that if all of the rookies have very similar stats at the end of the season (which they do currently and this happens to be one of those closest ROTY races in a very long time), then those that actually helped their team win more games should be favored (i.e. team records should serve as a tiebreaker). That’s not rocket science, that’s how it’s always been.


And that's where the disconnect is because, once again, no it's not. It's never been like that. And the fact that you haven't come up with a single example to support this theory says it all. I'm not reading the rest of your post. If you can't give me any valid examples, I'm not going to continue to waste my team reading your post. Give me an example or just admit you're wrong.

toooskies wrote:Unlike the Lebron/Carmelo cases, where in each case each team improved, it was easy to see that Lebron and Carmelo were the best players on the teams and deserved the credit for the improvement. In Mobley and Barnes's cases, though, they're not the best players on their teams and may not deserve most or even some of the credit for their teams' improvement. There are at least a half dozen reasons for the Cavs to be better this year than last (Garland's development, Allen's development, relative health/deeper roster, Rubio, Love/Osman rejuvenation, roster stability, no KPJ or Drummond drama, etc.) that have very little to nothing to do with Mobley.


Here's where the difference is though. For one thing, I would definitely argue that Mobley has had a far bigger impact in Cleveland's improvement than Barnes has in regards to Toronto (if it's there). And more importantly, while Mobley might not have been the biggest reason for Cleveland's improvement (a point in which I agree with), the fact that his impact is this noticeable despite being on the same team as two other players who are having breakout seasons says a lot about how well he's played so far.

He has shown multiple examples but its either you dont want to understand it or you are just incapable. Anyway its not worth wasting time on this matter.


No he hasn't. If he did, please, demonstrate them to me.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#829 » by BlazersBroncos » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:37 am

NirvanaFC wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:
ocelot17 wrote:Best rookie center.

Read on Twitter
?s=21
I just looked through the draft again and Jesus there is absolutely no competition there since Mobley has been a 4

I'm gonna start watching the Rockets once they get rid of KPJ and Wood


Sengun has the best post footwork since Joker. His sells on fakes are unreal and he knows when to spin the second your off balance. Dude is a savant in the post.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#830 » by LoveMyRaps » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:44 am

TheLand13 wrote:
srhcan wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:
And that's where the disconnect is because, once again, no it's not. It's never been like that. And the fact that you haven't come up with a single example to support this theory says it all. I'm not reading the rest of your post. If you can't give me any valid examples, I'm not going to continue to waste my team reading your post. Give me an example or just admit you're wrong.



Here's where the difference is though. For one thing, I would definitely argue that Mobley has had a far bigger impact in Cleveland's improvement than Barnes has in regards to Toronto (if it's there). And more importantly, while Mobley might not have been the biggest reason for Cleveland's improvement (a point in which I agree with), the fact that his impact is this noticeable despite being on the same team as two other players who are having breakout seasons says a lot about how well he's played so far.

He has shown multiple examples but its either you dont want to understand it or you are just incapable. Anyway its not worth wasting time on this matter.


No he hasn't. If he did, please, demonstrate them to me.


We're not your servants, you can scroll up yourself & find my comment where I laid out a ton of examples.

Coming here talking about "I'm not going to continue to waste my time reading your post", like anybody was talking to you in the first place. You chose to jump into a civilized discussion I was having with another poster here, because you wanted to shove your agenda in our faces and to no one's surprise you turned it into Mobley vs. Barnes out of nowhere. Again, you reek of insecurity.

Anyways, as scrhcan said, it's best to leave this matter as is.
I'm not gonna engage with you any further, you're just not worth the time or effort.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#831 » by LoveMyRaps » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:45 am

basketballRob wrote:Suggs playing tomorrow.

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Great news!
Looking forward to his return.
Hope he's healthy the rest of the season.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#832 » by whitehops » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:00 am

a little breakdown of how cade is handling being the lead ball handler so far:



one of the most impressive things is how QUICKLY cade makes decisions and passes out of double teams/traps. heck even when swinging the ball (like the wide open three that hayes missed) he makes those passes a split second after he catches the ball, meaning he's already made his decision before he even catches the ball.

those are the types of passes that don't show up on any stat sheet (as an assist or hockey assist) but are key in breaking down defenses for the offense.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#833 » by K_chile22 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:07 am

NirvanaFC wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:
ocelot17 wrote:Best rookie center.

Read on Twitter
?s=21
I just looked through the draft again and Jesus there is absolutely no competition there since Mobley has been a 4

I'm gonna start watching the Rockets once they get rid of KPJ and Wood
I don't think KPJ is going anywhere but if they don't trade wood I will be inconsolable
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#834 » by TheLand13 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:38 am

LoveMyRaps wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:
srhcan wrote:He has shown multiple examples but its either you dont want to understand it or you are just incapable. Anyway its not worth wasting time on this matter.


No he hasn't. If he did, please, demonstrate them to me.


We're not your servants, you can scroll up yourself & find my comment where I laid out a ton of examples.

Coming here talking about "I'm not going to continue to waste my time reading your post", like anybody was talking to you in the first place. You chose to jump into a civilized discussion I was having with another poster here, because you wanted to shove your agenda in our faces and to no one's surprise you turned it into Mobley vs. Barnes out of nowhere.


Buddy, the entire reason you are doing this in the first place is because of Mobley. You aren’t fooling anyone. You are literally the only person who thinks it is record based. I’ve barely bothered dealing with the Barnes vs Mobley debates. I don’t need to explain why Mobley is the better player. That part is already obvious.

But to try to claim that Mobley being the favorite and potentially winning is because of record? Absolute nonsense and showcases insecurity on your part if anything.

Oh and by the way, that’s three chances you’ve had now to provide examples. And I’m aware of the posts you are referring to. Those are not examples at all.

You had your chance and you couldn’t do it when asked to. I’ve been told not to bother with Raptors fans on this board by three different people now and I’m starting to see why. The mental gymnastics you guys do in a regular basis would make my niece jealous.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#835 » by HotelVitale » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:53 pm

K_chile22 wrote:
NirvanaFC wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:I just looked through the draft again and Jesus there is absolutely no competition there since Mobley has been a 4
I'm gonna start watching the Rockets once they get rid of KPJ and Wood
I don't think KPJ is going anywhere but if they don't trade wood I will be inconsolable
Only seen the Rockets couple times this year but Wood seems like he doesn't make any sense there. He's skilled and isn't exactly low-IQ but he doesn't really play a team game or help the ball flow, and he also isn't good enough to have a system flow through him. Hard to see how he works out for a rebuilding team, other than being some basic talent around so the team isn't awful.

Feel like if they could flip him for a solid rebuilding asset they should, and just replace some of his production with a less valued vet to keep things competent.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#836 » by Vampirate » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:38 pm

toooskies wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:Notice how you had to go all the way back to 2003 to come up with an example.


Oh, I could have very easily come up with something far more recent. But this is the best example.

Also, notice how you still have yet to come up with an actual example because none exist.

LoveMyRaps wrote:And even then, Cavs had a record of 35-47 that season which is not nearly as bad as what the Magic & Pistons are on pace for this season (14 & 19 wins respectively). Yes, the Nuggets had a better record of 43-39. But LeBron also had Melo beat in most of the major statistical categories.
PTS: Tie (21ppg)
RPG: Tie (5.5 vs 6.1)
APG: LeBron
SPG: LeBron
BPG: LeBron


Carmelo had better efficiency, not to mention he, you know, led his team to the playoffs, while LeBron didn't. You want to sit here and pretend like LeBron leading in the respective categories you mentioned matters. No one at the time really cared about LeBron's stats. That wasn't what made him stand out as a rookie. It was the way he changed the entire way the Cavaliers played and how much better they were when he was on the floor. That's how people are evaluating Mobley right now. It's just a coincidence that it's resulting in wins (being that good tends to help).

At some point you need to stop coming up with excuses. It's okay to admit that Mobley has been the superior rookie, I don't know why Raptor fans are so bent out of shape about that.

Unlike the Lebron/Carmelo cases, where in each case each team improved, it was easy to see that Lebron and Carmelo were the best players on the teams and deserved the credit for the improvement. In Mobley and Barnes's cases, though, they're not the best players on their teams and may not deserve most or even some of the credit for their teams' improvement. There are at least a half dozen reasons for the Cavs to be better this year than last (Garland's development, Allen's development, relative health/deeper roster, Rubio, Love/Osman rejuvenation, roster stability, no KPJ or Drummond drama, etc.) that have very little to nothing to do with Mobley.


I disagree with you here.

Consider that the more amount of energy you put on offense, the less amount of energy you can put on defense.

I've read somewhere that Mobley's defense is so good that it allows players to focus their game more on the offensive end.

Don't you think it odd that everyone is having better years right after Mobley has been drafted?

If you take Mobley off the Cavs, his defense goes away and then the other players need to put that much more energy into their defense and thus less energy into their offense.

It's an effect that you wouldn't notice unless you really think about it.


As for Barnes you could make that case with him, although that case looks muddied when he sometimes has stat lines that fill the sheet.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#837 » by K_chile22 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:58 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:
NirvanaFC wrote: I'm gonna start watching the Rockets once they get rid of KPJ and Wood
I don't think KPJ is going anywhere but if they don't trade wood I will be inconsolable
Only seen the Rockets couple times this year but Wood seems like he doesn't make any sense there. He's skilled and isn't exactly low-IQ but he doesn't really play a team game or help the ball flow, and he also isn't good enough to have a system flow through him. Hard to see how he works out for a rebuilding team, other than being some basic talent around so the team isn't awful.

Feel like if they could flip him for a solid rebuilding asset they should, and just replace some of his production with a less valued vet to keep things competent.
Honestly the big issue with him on this team is he is elite as a roll man, but because this team doesn't have any good pick and roll maestros or spacing, he almost never gets to display that. Instead all his offense just comes from stuff he's ok to pretty good at, like isoing against bigs on the perimeter and pick and popping.
He'd be awesome on the Hornets with Ball for example
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#838 » by TheLand13 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:15 pm

Vampirate wrote:I disagree with you here.

Consider that the more amount of energy you put on offense, the less amount of energy you can put on defense.

I've read somewhere that Mobley's defense is so good that it allows players to focus their game more on the offensive end.

Don't you think it odd that everyone is having better years right after Mobley has been drafted?


Not really, no.

Garland and Allen are still very young players who are continuing to develop. It was expected that they would be better. Mobley being there has definitely played a hand in that, but it was going to happen regardless.

Vampirate wrote:If you take Mobley off the Cavs, his defense goes away and then the other players need to put that much more energy into their defense and thus less energy into their offense.


You DO realize that Mobley is not the only one playing elite defense out there, right?

Vampirate wrote:It's an effect that you wouldn't notice unless you really think about it.


I notice it every time he gets subbed out.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#839 » by Vampirate » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:37 pm

TheLand13 wrote:
Vampirate wrote:I disagree with you here.

Consider that the more amount of energy you put on offense, the less amount of energy you can put on defense.

I've read somewhere that Mobley's defense is so good that it allows players to focus their game more on the offensive end.

Don't you think it odd that everyone is having better years right after Mobley has been drafted?


Not really, no.

Garland and Allen are still very young players who are continuing to develop. It was expected that they would be better. Mobley being there has definitely played a hand in that, but it was going to happen regardless.

Vampirate wrote:If you take Mobley off the Cavs, his defense goes away and then the other players need to put that much more energy into their defense and thus less energy into their offense.


You DO realize that Mobley is not the only one playing elite defense out there, right?

Vampirate wrote:It's an effect that you wouldn't notice unless you really think about it.


I notice it every time he gets subbed out.


Garland's real bump in production was from Year 1 to Year 2, from year 2 to year 3 he did get better, but last year the Cavs were deep in the lottery. Garland was producing at a similar rate last year to this year in numbers.

Jarret Allen is now in his 6th year and has been a 12/10 player for the past 5. Usually you'd see the biggest improvement in year 3 or 4. He's having his biggest improvement in year 6.

As for the bolded, the Cavs are now fighting for position in the playoffs. Mobley's defense is a huge part of that and it has probably had a trickle down effect.

I think someone on this forum said that the team tends to take on the identity of their best player.

Rubio when he was playing definitely helped, but this Cavs team didn't know success until they drafted Mobley. It's that Cut and dry (for me anyways).

Stat wise there may be players on the Cavs who look like they are the best players, but Mobley (to me anyways) is the Cavs best player.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4) 

Post#840 » by Creativetran » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:22 pm

Kameleon wrote:Great game by Point Forward Mobley again:
15 points
7/9 FG
10 rebonds
7 assists
1 block

Can't believe how deep this draft is, got this dude at 3 last year. The 3rd pick in this draft isn't gonna suck in comparison.

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