View of Giannis if Kyrie and Harden didnt get injured last year

[dWadeOwnzYou]

Neutral fan my flat a$$. Look at your user name.

[Patches Perry]

The way a player is "viewed" is heavily influenced by what actually happens. If Jordan didn't win championships, he wouldn't be "viewed" as the best ever even though in reality he'd still be the exact same player.

This is why we should try to separate external circumstances from how we evaluate individual players as much as possible. This doesn't mean we can't recognize and appreciate triumph and greatness, but injuries and whether or not your 5th leading scorer hits a three in a certain situation doesn't really change how good the best player on that team is.

With Giannis, his impact on the game is incredible independent of him winning the title last year, but people often need the title to validate that impact (wrongly, as I stated above). By either the titles metric, or the individual impact, Giannis passes with flying colors.

[cupcakesnake]

I mean, the GB ranked Luka Doncic over Steph, so I’m not sure it would have made much difference here. I thought KD is and was the superior player to Giannis and I do think there would have been more consensus for that view if Giannis had been bounced by the Nets (which KD still almost did with a bunch of scrubs).

I'm not sure what case KD has for being a better player than Giannis today. It sure looked like he's able to be neutralized by an elite defense whereas Giannis can't be. If KD needs a great supporting cast around him to succeed doesn't that make his argument of being better than Giannis even worse?

Yeah, not that I don't think a Giannis vs. KD discussion isn't worthwhile, but it's strange timing to use Giannis' game 7 defeat against the Celtics as evidence of KD>Giannis considering KD just got swept by the same team.

vs. the Celtics:
KD: 29.9 on .526 ts%
Giannis: 33.9ppg on .516 ts%

and that's just scoring, where KD's only advantage could come. Giannis gives near DPOY level defense consistently where KD is average.

Why would we wind back the comparison to a small sample from last year, when we have an even better small sample from this year?

[shza]

I mean, the GB ranked Luka Doncic over Steph, so I’m not sure it would have made much difference here. I thought KD is and was the superior player to Giannis and I do think there would have been more consensus for that view if Giannis had been bounced by the Nets (which KD still almost did with a bunch of scrubs).

I'm not sure what case KD has for being a better player than Giannis today. It sure looked like he's able to be neutralized by an elite defense whereas Giannis can't be. If KD needs a great supporting cast around him to succeed doesn't that make his argument of being better than Giannis even worse?

Yeah, not that I don't think a Giannis vs. KD discussion isn't worthwhile, but it's strange timing to use Giannis' game 7 defeat against the Celtics as evidence of KD>Giannis considering KD just got swept by the same team.

vs. the Celtics:
KD: 29.9 on .526 ts%
Giannis: 33.9ppg on .516 ts%

and that's just scoring, where KD's only advantage could come. Giannis gives near DPOY level defense consistently where KD is average.

Why would we wind back the comparison to a small sample from last year, when we have an even better small sample from this year?

Just noting that my post being quoted here is from the beginning of the season and so is not, and could not have been, based on these playoffs or anything that happened in the ‘21-22 season. I rank both Giannis and Luka higher than I did then.

[Blame Rasho]

What if Rasho won 12 championships… is he the goat?

Does anyone blame him for anything?

[CIN-C-STAR]

He's already viewed by most as the best player in the game.
Maybe he'd be viewed as slightly better historically if he beat the Nets with Harden & Kyrie healthy for the whole series, which he would have, but those guys dont exactly have impressive playoff resumes so it wouldnt make much difference to non-casuals.

[cupcakesnake]

What if Rasho won 12 championships… is he the goat?

Does anyone blame him for anything?

It's comforting when post and poster are in perfect formal harmony.

[vinnymate]

Bucks were missing DVD so it's pretty much a wash. These teams were evenly matched and it was an amazing series.

What is this? In what world does he have the same impact as Harden or Kyrie?

I honestly don't know if I'm joking or not.

Nets add offense, Bucks add defense and ultimate glue-guy. It's not as far off as you think, but Kyrie was cooking for sure. The Bucks were playing like 7.5 guys that series.

Lol this is hilarious take.

Have you looked up DDV stats over the last 2 years? Being a good defender doesn't make up that kind of offensive production, plus Bucks drop defense negate good perimeter D to some degree. He was also putrid offensively in the playoffs before he got injured too. How many more players do you want on your team who can't shoot or make a lay up?

[th87]

The Warriors were extremely good that year. The best team all season long actually. If you watched phoenix last year and thought they were in a class of the 15 Warriors than i would have to disagree. Are you arguing that you think phoenix last year was as good as the 15 warriors? Im saying they werent close. Thats the whole point with my ATL/Phoenix statement. They were weak opponents for conference finals and finals level teams compared to teams usually at that level.

No, I’m arguing that going off of the opponents a team beat in the playoffs doesn’t determine how good they were as a team. That’s incredibly flawed and shortsighted logic. And the Suns aren’t on the same level as the 15 warriors, but they were definitely one of the best teams in the league. That alone makes them a finals worthy team. Just stop with this nonsense.

You see it yet or no haha? Last years playoffs were a joke (phoenix didnt belong, and either admit the bucks win vs. Brooklyn was clearly due to injury, or you cant make middleton excuses this year).

Well, we saw how awesome Harden is in the playoffs. If he never got hurt, Durant would have to defer to him, reducing his own usage in favor of Harden's. With Durant being basically the only player, the Nets offense was incredibly efficient. If he had to share with Harden, it would be markedly less efficient.

So the Bucks would've won in 6 had Harden stayed healthy.

[danvato]

No, I’m arguing that going off of the opponents a team beat in the playoffs doesn’t determine how good they were as a team. That’s incredibly flawed and shortsighted logic. And the Suns aren’t on the same level as the 15 warriors, but they were definitely one of the best teams in the league. That alone makes them a finals worthy team. Just stop with this nonsense.

You see it yet or no haha? Last years playoffs were a joke (phoenix didnt belong, and either admit the bucks win vs. Brooklyn was clearly due to injury, or you cant make middleton excuses this year).

Well, we saw how awesome Harden is in the playoffs. If he never got hurt, Durant would have to defer to him, reducing his own usage in favor of Harden's. With Durant being basically the only player, the Nets offense was incredibly efficient. If he had to share with Harden, it would be markedly less efficient.

So the Bucks would've won in 6 had Harden stayed healthy.

lol.

if Middleton doesn't get hurt, Giannis would have to defer to him, reducing his own usage. With Giannis, Bucks offense was incredibly efficient, if he had to share with Middleton, it would be markedly less.

So Celtics in 4 in Middleton stayed healthy.

Did i capture the stupidity of your post accurately?

[Harry Garris]

I mean, the GB ranked Luka Doncic over Steph, so I’m not sure it would have made much difference here. I thought KD is and was the superior player to Giannis and I do think there would have been more consensus for that view if Giannis had been bounced by the Nets (which KD still almost did with a bunch of scrubs).

I'm not sure what case KD has for being a better player than Giannis today. It sure looked like he's able to be neutralized by an elite defense whereas Giannis can't be. If KD needs a great supporting cast around him to succeed doesn't that make his argument of being better than Giannis even worse?

Yeah, not that I don't think a Giannis vs. KD discussion isn't worthwhile, but it's strange timing to use Giannis' game 7 defeat against the Celtics as evidence of KD>Giannis considering KD just got swept by the same team.

vs. the Celtics:
KD: 29.9 on .526 ts%
Giannis: 33.9ppg on .516 ts%

and that's just scoring, where KD's only advantage could come. Giannis gives near DPOY level defense consistently where KD is average.

Why would we wind back the comparison to a small sample from last year, when we have an even better small sample from this year?

I know there was some debate last year between who was the better player in the Nets versus Bucks series and it seemed like the public was swaying towards KD which never made any sense to me. Sure he put up a few more points than Giannis did, but the efficiency was identical and Giannis as always was better in every other facet of the game.

[JayMKE]

This is dumb af, Giannis's reputation doesn't hinge a game or play some guy didn't participate in and whining about injuries is just loser talk. If you can't see the impact Giannis makes on both ends of the court then I suggest another sport and to perhaps avoid driving.

[cupcakesnake]

I'm not sure what case KD has for being a better player than Giannis today. It sure looked like he's able to be neutralized by an elite defense whereas Giannis can't be. If KD needs a great supporting cast around him to succeed doesn't that make his argument of being better than Giannis even worse?

Yeah, not that I don't think a Giannis vs. KD discussion isn't worthwhile, but it's strange timing to use Giannis' game 7 defeat against the Celtics as evidence of KD>Giannis considering KD just got swept by the same team.

vs. the Celtics:
KD: 29.9 on .526 ts%
Giannis: 33.9ppg on .516 ts%

and that's just scoring, where KD's only advantage could come. Giannis gives near DPOY level defense consistently where KD is average.

Why would we wind back the comparison to a small sample from last year, when we have an even better small sample from this year?

I know there was some debate last year between who was the better player in the Nets versus Bucks series and it seemed like the public was swaying towards KD which never made any sense to me. Sure he put up a few more points than Giannis did, but the efficiency was identical and Giannis as always was better in every other facet of the game.

We always fall in love with a dude who take and makes those tough pull ups in the playoffs. It gives us the feeling of that players scoring being undeniable. Then they go cold for a game and just look awful and we're all like: wait... what?

Tough shot making is for sure a immensely valuable skill, especially in the playoffs. But it is like we throw out everything else when we see a guy do it (Kobe, Durant, Kawhi or in a different way Jamal Murray, Dame Lillard, Donovan Mitchell). You need a lot more than tough shot making to win a game. You need the ability to get easy buckets more! You need defense, rebounding, you need offense that opens things up on a team level. Tough shot making is better when it's a "break in case of emergencies" like KD in Golden State or Kawhi on the Raptors, or how the Lakers would run the triangle through Pau in between Kobe doing Kobe things.

KD since his achilles has fallen off in terms of mobility. It affects him defensively, but also (as we saw in Boston) he can't really get by guys anymore and his cuts are slower. He's still a monster. A 6'11" deadly pull up shooter with handles and a bit of passing. But I was as skeptical as you when many fans and analysts got fully onboard the KD bandwagon after that series. Giannis did struggle early I suppose.

[Harry Garris]

Yeah, not that I don't think a Giannis vs. KD discussion isn't worthwhile, but it's strange timing to use Giannis' game 7 defeat against the Celtics as evidence of KD>Giannis considering KD just got swept by the same team.

vs. the Celtics:
KD: 29.9 on .526 ts%
Giannis: 33.9ppg on .516 ts%

and that's just scoring, where KD's only advantage could come. Giannis gives near DPOY level defense consistently where KD is average.

Why would we wind back the comparison to a small sample from last year, when we have an even better small sample from this year?

I know there was some debate last year between who was the better player in the Nets versus Bucks series and it seemed like the public was swaying towards KD which never made any sense to me. Sure he put up a few more points than Giannis did, but the efficiency was identical and Giannis as always was better in every other facet of the game.

We always fall in love with a dude who take and makes those tough pull ups in the playoffs. It gives us the feeling of that players scoring being undeniable. Then they go cold for a game and just look awful and we're all like: wait... what?

Tough shot making is for sure a immensely valuable skill, especially in the playoffs. But it is like we throw out everything else when we see a guy do it (Kobe, Durant, Kawhi or in a different way Jamal Murray, Dame Lillard, Donovan Mitchell). You need a lot more than tough shot making to win a game. You need the ability to get easy buckets more! You need defense, rebounding, you need offense that opens things up on a team level. Tough shot making is better when it's a "break in case of emergencies" like KD in Golden State or Kawhi on the Raptors, or how the Lakers would run the triangle through Pau in between Kobe doing Kobe things.

KD since his achilles has fallen off in terms of mobility. It affects him defensively, but also (as we saw in Boston) he can't really get by guys anymore and his cuts are slower. He's still a monster. A 6'11" deadly pull up shooter with handles and a bit of passing. But I was as skeptical as you when many fans and analysts got fully onboard the KD bandwagon after that series. Giannis did struggle early I suppose.

Yeah to his credit KD had a brief period when he was on the Warriors and his first season on the Nets where he was a more versatile player and he was involved defensively and trying to handle the ball more and make plays for others. And I don't know if it was because of his immense workload this season and he was just tired or what but we didn't see that side of him this year.

I mean the Nets arguably lost game 1 against the Celtics because KD fell asleep when Tatum dived to the rim for the game winning layup. He looked unfocused and disengaged on defense throughout the whole series.

But yeah you're right to the average fan they're just watching the ball on offense and KD is doing things that certainly look more impressive to Giannis pulling up and hitting high degree of difficulty mid range jumpers. Defense and rebounding and even simple things like keeping the ball moving on offense and running through plays with max effort really matter to winning but they aren't going to show up on a highlight reel.

[smythep]

[th87]

You see it yet or no haha? Last years playoffs were a joke (phoenix didnt belong, and either admit the bucks win vs. Brooklyn was clearly due to injury, or you cant make middleton excuses this year).

Well, we saw how awesome Harden is in the playoffs. If he never got hurt, Durant would have to defer to him, reducing his own usage in favor of Harden's. With Durant being basically the only player, the Nets offense was incredibly efficient. If he had to share with Harden, it would be markedly less efficient.

So the Bucks would've won in 6 had Harden stayed healthy.

lol.

if Middleton doesn't get hurt, Giannis would have to defer to him, reducing his own usage. With Giannis, Bucks offense was incredibly efficient, if he had to share with Middleton, it would be markedly less.

So Celtics in 4 in Middleton stayed healthy.

Did i capture the stupidity of your post accurately?

Sorry you're triggered.

But playoff Middleton is actually good, while fat playoff Harden is garbage. Other than that, perfect comparison.

[lamscott]

You can only play whomever is front of you.

[MrGoat]

Winning bias is a thing. Had the Nets won that series of course it would have affected the way Giannis is viewed by many

[shza]

I'm not sure what case KD has for being a better player than Giannis today. It sure looked like he's able to be neutralized by an elite defense whereas Giannis can't be. If KD needs a great supporting cast around him to succeed doesn't that make his argument of being better than Giannis even worse?

Yeah, not that I don't think a Giannis vs. KD discussion isn't worthwhile, but it's strange timing to use Giannis' game 7 defeat against the Celtics as evidence of KD>Giannis considering KD just got swept by the same team.

vs. the Celtics:
KD: 29.9 on .526 ts%
Giannis: 33.9ppg on .516 ts%

and that's just scoring, where KD's only advantage could come. Giannis gives near DPOY level defense consistently where KD is average.

Why would we wind back the comparison to a small sample from last year, when we have an even better small sample from this year?

I know there was some debate last year between who was the better player in the Nets versus Bucks series and it seemed like the public was swaying towards KD which never made any sense to me. Sure he put up a few more points than Giannis did, but the efficiency was identical and Giannis as always was better in every other facet of the game.

Except shooting. That’s always been the big hole in Giannis’s game. But maybe that’s what you meant (versus “scoring”). At this point, though, he’s improved it to passable level (though he shouldn’t take most of the threes he takes—it doesn’t keep defenses honest because every team loves him taking that shot). And he’s so dominant at everything else that I think I probably do put him at #1 in the league. I still think it was premature to put him there 3-4 years ago, but he’s Improved.

[hardenASG13]

Well, we saw how awesome Harden is in the playoffs. If he never got hurt, Durant would have to defer to him, reducing his own usage in favor of Harden's. With Durant being basically the only player, the Nets offense was incredibly efficient. If he had to share with Harden, it would be markedly less efficient.

So the Bucks would've won in 6 had Harden stayed healthy.

lol.

if Middleton doesn't get hurt, Giannis would have to defer to him, reducing his own usage. With Giannis, Bucks offense was incredibly efficient, if he had to share with Middleton, it would be markedly less.

So Celtics in 4 in Middleton stayed healthy.

Did i capture the stupidity of your post accurately?

Sorry you're triggered.

But playoff Middleton is actually good, while fat playoff Harden is garbage. Other than that, perfect comparison.

How bout Kyrie too haha. Wasnt gonna reply due to how absurd your post was but, wow, talk about delusional.