Does Embiid even have the defense argument over Jokic now?

[Peregrine01]

The biggest argument in favor of Embiid over Jokic around these circles has traditionally been about defense. But after watching the game last night where the Nets just torched Philly, I was wondering if that's still the case so I dug up some numbers from NBA WOWY.

Philly is posting the exact same DRTG as the Nuggets while the Nuggets are posting a better DRTG when Jokic is on the floor compared to Philly when Embiid is on. Moreover, the Nuggets are worse on defense when Jokic is off compared to Philly when Embiid's off:

Nuggets DRTG: 110
Philly DRTG: 110

Nuggets DRTG when Jokic on: 108
Nuggets DRTG when Jokic off: 112

Philly DRTG when Embiid on: 109
Philly DRTG when Embiid off: 111

I also checked BBall Index's LEBRON all-in-one stat and here's there D-Lebron:

Jokic: 2.11
Embiid: 1.95

(For reference, Gobert's at 3.25)

So is this argument even all that clear cut anymore? If anything, numbers argue in favor of Jokic being better on defense.

[dhsilv2]

Embiid is still the better defender. The nuggets just have worse players on the bench than Embiid has imo. That said the gap was considerably narrowed.

[Peregrine01]

Embiid is still the better defender. The nuggets just have worse players on the bench than Embiid has imo. That said the gap was considerably narrowed.

Agreed that Jokic has worse defenders around him than Embiid does and it probably skews his defensive impact numbers up. But the Nuggets are also performing better on defense when Jokic is on the floor than Philly is with Embiid on the floor.

[bisme37]

I haven't looked into the defensive comparison very much if I'm being honest. But the impact of Jokic is just insane.

A week or two ago there was thread about net/defensive/offensive ratings for each team's top 3 players on the court together. And the Nuggets trio ranked near the top of the league... even though their actual 2nd and 3rd best players aren't even playing.

When a dude is elevating guys like Aaron Gordon and Monte Morris into part of a power trio, I mean that's just so impressive.

[dhsilv2]

Embiid is still the better defender. The nuggets just have worse players on the bench than Embiid has imo. That said the gap was considerably narrowed.

Agreed that Jokic has worse defenders around him than Embiid does and it probably skews his defensive impact numbers up. But the Nuggets are also performing better on defense when Jokic is on the floor than Philly is with Embiid on the floor.

What I'm saying is that the guy replacing Embiid vs Jokic is worse for the nuggets than 76ers

[Cubbies2120]

Embiid is still the better defender. The nuggets just have worse players on the bench than Embiid has imo. That said the gap was considerably narrowed.

Agreed that Jokic has worse defenders around him than Embiid does and it probably skews his defensive impact numbers up. But the Nuggets are also performing better on defense when Jokic is on the floor than Philly is with Embiid on the floor.

What I'm saying is that the guy replacing Embiid vs Jokic is worse for the nuggets than 76ers

And that's fine, but when you look at both of their numbers when ON the court, Nuggets defensive rating is better.

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

[Karate Diop]

No.

He's worse than Jokic on both ends. Just doesn't have the mental fortitude to be as good...

[Vampirate]

What sets Jokic apart is his passing

Embiid's A/TO this year is 4.3/3
Jokic's A/TO this year is 8.1/3.8

Jokic is in and will always be in another league as a playmaker/passer

To put this another way James harden will be looked for to be the playmaker for the 76ers, Embiid will be the primary scorer.

In the Nuggets Jokic is both the best scorer and best playmaker by a landslide.

In short Jokic's offense > Embiid's offense pretty easily

[dhsilv2]

Agreed that Jokic has worse defenders around him than Embiid does and it probably skews his defensive impact numbers up. But the Nuggets are also performing better on defense when Jokic is on the floor than Philly is with Embiid on the floor.

What I'm saying is that the guy replacing Embiid vs Jokic is worse for the nuggets than 76ers

And that's fine, but when you look at both of their numbers when ON the court, Nuggets defensive rating is better.

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

Is anyone worse on the nuggets than Curry defensively? You start with how had are the bad defenders. not how good are the best defenders.

[Cubbies2120]

No.

He's worse than Jokic on both ends. Just doesn't have the mental fortitude to be as good...

We saw a perfect example yesterday, he jogged down the court back on transition defense when the Sixers were down double digits. A big part of defense is transition defense, and when you give piss poor effort like that, it shows.

[Funcrusher]

Agreed that Jokic has worse defenders around him than Embiid does and it probably skews his defensive impact numbers up. But the Nuggets are also performing better on defense when Jokic is on the floor than Philly is with Embiid on the floor.

What I'm saying is that the guy replacing Embiid vs Jokic is worse for the nuggets than 76ers

And that's fine, but when you look at both of their numbers when ON the court, Nuggets defensive rating is better.

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

I don't think he's DPOY-Caliber, but Aaron Gordon might be more essential to the Nuggets defense than Thybulle is to the Sixers. Nuggs also have guys like Barton and Morris, and JayMychal and Jeff Green arent' great but generally solid wings defensively. I dunno, not saying Embiid is better defensively but they both have a fair amount of help. The funny thing is though that Embiid and Joker both essentially play the same role defensively - they're both drop bigs pretty much exclusively. I think Embiid is a better rim protector but Jokic is more consistent and smarter at helping/backline rotations

[Funcrusher]

What I'm saying is that the guy replacing Embiid vs Jokic is worse for the nuggets than 76ers

And that's fine, but when you look at both of their numbers when ON the court, Nuggets defensive rating is better.

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

Is anyone worse on the nuggets than Curry defensively? You start with how had are the bad defenders. not how good are the best defenders.

Curry's not with the Sixers anymore. Then again they do have Harden now

[cupcakesnake]

I can't get quite get there. Embiid just has so many natural advantages over Jokic in terms of mobility, size, and athleticism. That being said, I haven't been wildly impressed with Embiid's defense this year. There's a reason he isn't getting much DPOY hype this year and you can see the effort is not quite at his usual levels while he's reaching new heights as an offensive player. He doesn't look as dialed in on that end and he seems to be having more fun offensively. In the past, Embiid has always looked (by my eye) as a guy who loves to mash on defense, embarrass his opponents, guard the perimeter, block shots, just be dominant. I see him cutting more corners this year.

Jokic has been pretty dialed and maximizing his defensive impact. His defense is so ugly that he tricks you into thinking he's a stiff and slow backline guy, but he's very tricky and smart (much smarter than Embiid). Jokic loves to stunt (fake lunging at the ball to force the offensive player into making his decision too early), and he keeps guys away from the rim. He can get killed by floater specialists and midrange assassins, but in the Nuggets scheme he protects the hoop. I don't see as many blow bys this year.

I still think Jokic has some strategic weaknesses that Embiid just doesn't. No amount of IQ advantage by Joker can overcome Embiid's insane physical advantages. I think Embiid will dial it up to a level in the playoffs that is inaccessible to a non-jumper like Jokic. The Suns series is still fresh in my mind, when Jokic was just bombarded in his weakspot (the midrange). Embiid has way more flexibility to do different things on the defensive end. I'm taking Embiid everytime for defense, regardless if Jokic is beating him in terms of regular season production this year.

[Cubbies2120]

they're both drop bigs pretty much exclusively. I think Embiid is a better rim protector but Jokic is more consistent and smarter at helping/backline rotations

Agree with this, Jokic is better with positioning/awareness, Embiid is better at protecting the rim against a driver.

Jokic also can't afford to get into foul trouble since he's the playmaker on the offensive end as well, so you'll see him pull back a bit from some contests (like last night) so he doesn't get ticky tack fouls.

[celticfan42487]

Jokic leads the league in defensive box plus minus, Embiid is 10th

Jokic is 4th in the NBA in defensive rating, Embiid is 10th

Jokic is 2nd in the NBA in defensive rebound %, Embiid is 6th (similar story for total rebounding % but there Embiid is 10th instead of 6th)

Jokic is a better defender than Embiid straight up, the only thing Embiid does at a higher rate is block shots but the 2.5 combined blocks and steals Embiid gets compared to Jokic's 2.2 steal and blocks is nothing compared to the solid defensive positioning and 2.7 more rebounds per game Jokic provides.

Jokic plays better defense than Embiid but just has less highlights that ESPN analyst can run or you can put on youtube. Positional defense doesn't look sexy.

Embiid IS a great defensive player though, he's just not as good on defense as Jokic is. He's at least a top 5 defensive Center in the league (too many to actually validate if that's true but he's right there with Jokic, Gobert, Bam, Rob Williams, ect).

[DusterBuster]

I don't think it's any really competition between Jokic and Embiid at this point. I think it's kinda settled that Jokic is better.

[Funcrusher]

Jokic leads the league in defensive box plus minus, Embiid is 10th

Jokic is 4th in the NBA in defensive rating, Embiid is 10th

Jokic is 2nd in the NBA in defensive rebound %, Embiid is 6th (similar story for total rebounding % but there Embiid is 10th instead of 6th)

Jokic is a better defender than Embiid straight up, the only thing Embiid does at a higher rate is block shots but the 2.5 combined blocks and steals Embiid gets compared to Jokic's 2.2 steal and blocks is nothing compared to the solid defensive positioning and 2.7 more rebounds per game Jokic provides.

Jokic plays better defense than Embiid but just has less highlights that ESPN analyst can run or you can put on youtube. Positional defense doesn't look sexy.

Embiid IS a great defensive player though, he's just not as good on defense as Jokic is. He's at least a top 5 defensive Center in the league (too many to actually validate if that's true but he's right there with Jokic, Gobert, Bam, Rob Williams, ect).

Yeah I will say, one thing that I think distinguishes the two defensively this year, is their rebound rate. Jokic is snatching defensive boards at a fairly historic rate while still being fundamental in his approach and not really chasing for boards too much (he's also one of the best at boxing out in the league). Embiid is good in this respect as well but doesn't seem as invested in cleaning the defensive glass as in previous years.

[cupcakesnake]

Embiid is still the better defender. The nuggets just have worse players on the bench than Embiid has imo. That said the gap was considerably narrowed.

Agreed that Jokic has worse defenders around him than Embiid does and it probably skews his defensive impact numbers up. But the Nuggets are also performing better on defense when Jokic is on the floor than Philly is with Embiid on the floor.

What I'm saying is that the guy replacing Embiid vs Jokic is worse for the nuggets than 76ers

I like Jamychal Green and Zeke Nnaji more than Deandre Jordan, Paul Millsap, Will Cauley-Stein, and the young guys (Reed and Bassey). I know they had Drummond there all season so he's the one in the numbers, and he was holding up solidly there.

I know more about Nnaji's offense than his defense, but Jamychal Green is gritty in the paint and has some switchability. Jeff Green has played there some in small-ball lineups as well.

[BK_2020]

Embiid is still the better defender. The nuggets just have worse players on the bench than Embiid has imo. That said the gap was considerably narrowed.

Nuggets bench is better than some of Philly's starters.... The Sixers play Korkmaz, Niang and Shake over 20 mins a game. They are worse than OKC 3-15.

[Peregrine01]

I can't get quite get there. Embiid just has so many natural advantages over Jokic in terms of mobility, size, and athleticism. That being said, I haven't been wildly impressed with Embiid's defense this year. There's a reason he isn't getting much DPOY hype this year and you can see the effort is not quite at his usual levels while he's reaching new heights as an offensive player. He doesn't look as dialed in on that end and he seems to be having more fun offensively. In the past, Embiid has always looked (by my eye) as a guy who loves to mash on defense, embarrass his opponents, guard the perimeter, block shots, just be dominant. I see him cutting more corners this year.

Jokic has been pretty dialed and maximizing his defensive impact. His defense is so ugly that he tricks you into thinking he's a stiff and slow backline guy, but he's very tricky and smart (much smarter than Embiid). Jokic loves to stunt (fake lunging at the ball to force the offensive player into making his decision too early), and he keeps guys away from the rim. He can get killed by floater specialists and midrange assassins, but in the Nuggets scheme he protects the hoop. I don't see as many blow bys this year.

I still think Jokic has some strategic weaknesses that Embiid just doesn't. No amount of IQ advantage by Joker can overcome Embiid's insane physical advantages. I think Embiid will dial it up to a level in the playoffs that is inaccessible to a non-jumper like Jokic. The Suns series is still fresh in my mind, when Jokic was just bombarded in his weakspot (the midrange). Embiid has way more flexibility to do different things on the defensive end. I'm taking Embiid everytime for defense, regardless if Jokic is beating him in terms of regular season production this year.

If the argument is that Embiid has more physical tools to play better defense then I think few will argue that point. But so far this season, there really isn't much objective evidence supporting that he actually is a better defender.

Jokic has the physical make-up of someone like Marc Gasol, who was a perennial DPOY contender. I think few would argue that Embiid is better than Gasol was on defense even though he has better physical tools.