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In the history of the NBA dating back to 1947, the 3 lowest seasons in terms of average FTA were:

3. 2021-2022 (21.9)
2. 2020-2021 (21.8)
1. 2017-2018 (21.7)

This number has been trending downward pretty much from the beginning. My guess is somebody will respond "the problem isn't as much the amount of FTs as it is favoritism toward certain players" but I have never seen compelling evidence supporting this favoritism. In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved. Everybody has access to the footage on the NBA stat pages so I challenge you to conduct your own research if you're so inclined. Watching all field goal attempts sequentially is a pretty good way of doing it in my experience.

Anyway my main point is that a lot of you are full of **** when it comes to this conversation and I patiently await the day you convince me otherwise. I'm a very open minded person.

Free throws have gone down as three point shooting has gone up. I think the main issue people have is not favoritism for certian players, but players who are always flopping and stuff like the rip through move which has been fixed. Certain players would use these moves more often than others.

Fixing stuff like this has made the league better.



These changes were the best thing the NBA has done. Some guys still get away with stuff, but at least its improved.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-rule-changes-2021-referees-foul-abnormal-moves/1k3iwiwqplmo9zznivoev48do

GeorgeMarcus wrote:In the history of the NBA dating back to 1947, the 3 lowest seasons in terms of average FTA were:

3. 2021-2022 (21.9)
2. 2020-2021 (21.8)
1. 2017-2018 (21.7)

This number has been trending downward pretty much from the beginning. My guess is somebody will respond "the problem isn't as much the amount of FTs as it is favoritism toward certain players" but I have never seen compelling evidence supporting this favoritism. In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved. Everybody has access to the footage on the NBA stat pages so I challenge you to conduct your own research if you're so inclined. Watching all field goal attempts sequentially is a pretty good way of doing it in my experience.

Anyway my main point is that a lot of you are full of **** when it comes to this conversation and I patiently await the day you convince me otherwise. I'm a very open minded person.

FTA are down all over except for two players. Doesn't matter. If the sixers win it will simply because the referees deemed it so and fixed it

therealozzykhan wrote:Free throws have gone down as three point shooting has gone up. I think the main issue people have is not favoritism for certian players, but players who are always flopping and stuff like the rip through move which has been fixed. Certain players would use these moves more often than others.

Fixing stuff like this has made the league better.

Read on Twitter

These changes were the best thing the NBA has done. Some guys still get away with stuff, but at least its improved.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-rule-changes-2021-referees-foul-abnormal-moves/1k3iwiwqplmo9zznivoev48do

Sure that's a good example of progress that can be made but no matter where the line is drawn, players will test their limits to the fullest extent. Rules are as much about what we can do as what we can't.

Actually I appreciate you bringing this up because complaining about a specific type of call is of course valid. Something that can be articulated and changed through proper channels. I just hate the favoritism boogey man and the implication that players are to blame for shaping their game toward existing rules. FWIW I defended Harden on this topic throughout his career

Johnny Bball wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:In the history of the NBA dating back to 1947, the 3 lowest seasons in terms of average FTA were:

3. 2021-2022 (21.9)
2. 2020-2021 (21.8)
1. 2017-2018 (21.7)

This number has been trending downward pretty much from the beginning. My guess is somebody will respond "the problem isn't as much the amount of FTs as it is favoritism toward certain players" but I have never seen compelling evidence supporting this favoritism. In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved. Everybody has access to the footage on the NBA stat pages so I challenge you to conduct your own research if you're so inclined. Watching all field goal attempts sequentially is a pretty good way of doing it in my experience.

Anyway my main point is that a lot of you are full of **** when it comes to this conversation and I patiently await the day you convince me otherwise. I'm a very open minded person.

FTA are down all over except for two players. Doesn't matter. If the sixers win it will simply because the referees deemed it so and fixed it

I'm giddy for the inevitable asterisk that would be placed on our title were we to win one

With the incredible amount of 3 point shooting these days, this is a very simplistic view.

GeorgeMarcus wrote:In the history of the NBA dating back to 1947, the 3 lowest seasons in terms of average FTA were:

3. 2021-2022 (21.9)
2. 2020-2021 (21.8)
1. 2017-2018 (21.7)

This number has been trending downward pretty much from the beginning. My guess is somebody will respond "the problem isn't as much the amount of FTs as it is favoritism toward certain players" but I have never seen compelling evidence supporting this favoritism. In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved. Everybody has access to the footage on the NBA stat pages so I challenge you to conduct your own research if you're so inclined. Watching all field goal attempts sequentially is a pretty good way of doing it in my experience.

Anyway my main point is that a lot of you are full of **** when it comes to this conversation and I patiently await the day you convince me otherwise. I'm a very open minded person.

Well, since you asked, this is not about favoritism for this or that player this is about the way Jokic is officiated. First article is from Jokic's 3rd year 2017-2018. In this article you could see Denver is 3rd on the list of teams with the most bad call against them. Jokic is 7the on the list of players that were bad officiated in last 2 mins of close games. What is interesting here is that in these situations referees usually "swallow their whistle's" and don't call anything. Except in Jokic's case. They called more bad calls against him then against other 28 teams overal.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/which-nba-team-is-wronged-by-the-refs-the-most/

The second article is from Jokic's MVP season. I'm Nuggets fan I'm biased and I can't be objective, but if other smarth people say something who am I to oppose.

https://thef5.substack.com/p/youd-complain-too?s=r

Hmmmm. Very compelling objective argument from the OP.

I just want to thank him for his services. After all, not everybody is willing to "watch large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated" like the OP very clearly did and in the most objective manner possible.

The 3pt rate has tripled and the free throws have gone down about 10% lol

GeorgeMarcus wrote:In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved.

Interesting - I got the exact opposite from watching large samples of footage. I've come away shocked at how much time a 7 foot 270+ lb player (Embiid) spends on the floor. He either has some massive balance issues (lack of core strength? equilibrium issues?) or he just flops a lot. If it's the latter, kudos to him for fooling the refs. If it's the former, there's ways to solve balance issues.

I mean, the fact that this was a shooting foul tells you all you need to know...they baby this man

https://imgur.com/a/jBKdb9v

We've seen Embiid play dominant basketball for stretches without hunting for free throws, but I don't think he's built that way to do it for a full season - he gets a lot of breaks at the free throw line.

Notice how the years he averaged the most FTA, he also averaged the most MPG? He gets a ~1 minute break each time he gets to the line.

The problem isn't favoritism though that could be a minor factor. Not all FTs are equal and the type of players that get them are decreasing. No more traditional power forwards getting normal contact in midrange. Fouls are increasingly 3 and key and we hate when role players and superstars are pushing the limits of the freedom of movement rule.

I've pointed out that players are more likely to get flagrant fouls on defense than on offense when comparing how DeAaron Fox got ejected compared to how Russell Westbrook and Jalen Suggs hooked guys in midair and got no calls.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Hmmmm. Very compelling objective argument from the OP.

I just want to thank him for his services. After all, not everybody is willing to "watch large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated" like the OP very clearly did and in the most objective manner possible.

Yep, we just gotta trust that his observation is correct - there's no links to the specific games that he watched, how many, etc. It's literally "Just trust me bro!"

GeorgeMarcus wrote:

Johnny Bball wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:In the history of the NBA dating back to 1947, the 3 lowest seasons in terms of average FTA were:

3. 2021-2022 (21.9)
2. 2020-2021 (21.8)
1. 2017-2018 (21.7)

This number has been trending downward pretty much from the beginning. My guess is somebody will respond "the problem isn't as much the amount of FTs as it is favoritism toward certain players" but I have never seen compelling evidence supporting this favoritism. In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved. Everybody has access to the footage on the NBA stat pages so I challenge you to conduct your own research if you're so inclined. Watching all field goal attempts sequentially is a pretty good way of doing it in my experience.

Anyway my main point is that a lot of you are full of **** when it comes to this conversation and I patiently await the day you convince me otherwise. I'm a very open minded person.

FTA are down all over except for two players. Doesn't matter. If the sixers win it will simply because the referees deemed it so and fixed it

I'm giddy for the inevitable asterisk that would be placed on our title were we to win won

Good attitude. You have to embrace the asterisk.

I’ll echo another poster and say for me it’s not the amount of fouls it’s the type of fouls. I can’t count how many times I get angry watching games seeing contact on drives to the bucket go uncalled while seeing BS perimeter touch fouls or stupid obvious lean in fouls being whistled.

Cubbies2120 wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved.

Interesting - I got the exact opposite from watching large samples of footage. I've come away shocked at how much time a 7 foot 270+ lb player (Embiid) spends on the floor. He either has some massive balance issues (lack of core strength? equilibrium issues?) or he just flops a lot. If it's the latter, kudos to him for fooling the refs. If it's the former, there's ways to solve balance issues.

I mean, the fact that this was a shooting foul tells you all you need to know...they baby this man

https://imgur.com/a/jBKdb9v

We've seen Embiid play dominant basketball for stretches without hunting for free throws, but I don't think he's built that way to do it for a full season - he gets a lot of breaks at the free throw line.

Notice how the years he averaged the most FTA, he also averaged the most MPG? He gets a ~1 minute break each time he gets to the line.

"incidental contact against an offensive player shall be ignored if it does not affect the player’s speed, quickness, balance and/or rhythm." this and avoiding injuries is why hes on the floor all the time. theres no reason to power through when you are an 80 percent foul shooter. it just allows teams to wear you down.

there isnt really any fooling of the refs, those are just the rules. if the rules werent like that, basketball would be played with 5 lesser skilled forwards that weigh over 250 pounds because if all contact regardless of outcome was fouls, smaller players would be destroyed by larger ones all the time.

this is why lebron and luka complains of not receiving calls, why jokic seems to not get calls, and why touching lou williams and trae young seems to result in free throws so often.

durant, demar derozan, jimmy butler, and numerous others are all doing the same things as joel, but hes just the best at it because hes 300 pounds. Joel also receives his penance when he goes for the flop, fails, and it results in a turnover or a wild shot. we are going to see a ton of it when teams do their homework and make him work harder to get to the line in the playoffs, causing him to wear out by the end of the game.

When the tall gentlemen bounce the spherical object and make their way towards the basket with the intention of drawing the tall gentleman wearing different colours, only to then throw said spherical object out to a member of their organisation who launches spherical object from a greater distance this will lead to less contact and therefore throws which are free as opposed to same gentleman continuing their possession of spherical object and attempting to place it through the basket at a closer distance

Cubbies2120 wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved.

Interesting - I got the exact opposite from watching large samples of footage. I've come away shocked at how much time a 7 foot 270+ lb player (Embiid) spends on the floor. He either has some massive balance issues (lack of core strength? equilibrium issues?) or he just flops a lot. If it's the latter, kudos to him for fooling the refs. If it's the former, there's ways to solve balance issues.

I mean, the fact that this was a shooting foul tells you all you need to know...they baby this man

https://imgur.com/a/jBKdb9v

We've seen Embiid play dominant basketball for stretches without hunting for free throws, but I don't think he's built that way to do it for a full season - he gets a lot of breaks at the free throw line.

Notice how the years he averaged the most FTA, he also averaged the most MPG? He gets a ~1 minute break each time he gets to the line.

Seen that video link many times on these boards as if that is what happens very regularly. Obviously that’s not a foul. However, for every questionable call, there are a dozen or more legitimate ones. This video was from a Knicks game.

https://youtu.be/9IS6o2azp-8

2 flops near the end, but he had his feet firmly planted on the floor for the rest.

He dominates the paint due to his size and agility, and defenders are often forced to reach in. That’s the only way to stop him from getting an easy bucket. On other occasions, he baits the opposing center to foul due to his BBIQ. But they are fouls nonetheless. Embiid averages 11.8 FTA, and Giannis 11.4 FTA. The only reason Embiid gets all the heat is because he is a superior FT shooter.

Johnny Bball wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:In the history of the NBA dating back to 1947, the 3 lowest seasons in terms of average FTA were:

3. 2021-2022 (21.9)
2. 2020-2021 (21.8)
1. 2017-2018 (21.7)

This number has been trending downward pretty much from the beginning. My guess is somebody will respond "the problem isn't as much the amount of FTs as it is favoritism toward certain players" but I have never seen compelling evidence supporting this favoritism. In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved. Everybody has access to the footage on the NBA stat pages so I challenge you to conduct your own research if you're so inclined. Watching all field goal attempts sequentially is a pretty good way of doing it in my experience.

Anyway my main point is that a lot of you are full of **** when it comes to this conversation and I patiently await the day you convince me otherwise. I'm a very open minded person.

FTA are down all over except for two players. Doesn't matter. If the sixers win it will simply because the referees deemed it so and fixed it

Luckily we won't have to worry about the Sixers winning

LordCovington33 wrote:

Cubbies2120 wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved.

Interesting - I got the exact opposite from watching large samples of footage. I've come away shocked at how much time a 7 foot 270+ lb player (Embiid) spends on the floor. He either has some massive balance issues (lack of core strength? equilibrium issues?) or he just flops a lot. If it's the latter, kudos to him for fooling the refs. If it's the former, there's ways to solve balance issues.

I mean, the fact that this was a shooting foul tells you all you need to know...they baby this man

https://imgur.com/a/jBKdb9v

We've seen Embiid play dominant basketball for stretches without hunting for free throws, but I don't think he's built that way to do it for a full season - he gets a lot of breaks at the free throw line.

Notice how the years he averaged the most FTA, he also averaged the most MPG? He gets a ~1 minute break each time he gets to the line.

Seen that video link many times on these boards as if that is what happens very regularly. Obviously that’s not a foul. However, for every questionable call, there are a dozen or more legitimate ones. This video was from a Knicks game.

https://youtu.be/9IS6o2azp-8

2 flops near the end, but he had his feet firmly planted on the floor for the rest.

He dominates the paint due to his size and agility, and defenders are often forced to reach in. That’s the only way to stop him from getting an easy bucket. On other occasions, he baits the opposing center to foul due to his BBIQ. But they are fouls nonetheless. Embiid averages 11.8 FTA, and Giannis 11.4 FTA. The only reason Embiid gets all the heat is because he is a superior FT shooter.

Obviously, it's all selective.

But many of those types of plays do not seem to end up as free throw opportunities for other players.

Is that because they're not as good at selling them? Because they haven't earned that benefit of the doubt yet? Something something he's just too big? Or something else?

KembaWalker wrote:The 3pt rate has tripled and the free throws have gone down about 10% lol

Jables wrote:With the incredible amount of 3 point shooting these days, this is a very simplistic view.

I think we would need to compare the rate of jumpshots outside around 16 feet, not simply 3PT rate. Citing just 3PT rate can give the implication that before, instead of three's, teams were attempting shots in the paint. IIRC, it's mainly been long two point jumpshots that have been switched for 3PA, and those were not high foul draw shots, though maybe slightly higher than three's. But then add that if you are fouled shooting a 3PT shot which you don't make, you get one more FTA than shooting a long 2PT shot, so the FT rate on those shots is likely not changing more than like 0.3 FTA/G or something small like that.

Also pace has gone up compared to 90's, 00's and 10's, so we have more shots being taken and fewer FTA. The league has taken away some means of "easy" FT's that players use to utilize, such as the rip through. Teams have also changed mentality and are less likely to foul for the sake of fouling as many have moved to the belief that fouling is bad defense, from previous "earn it at the line". Fewer offensive rebounds are chased after, that might factor in slightly. Also add the change in international fouling off the ball and hack a _____, so yes, regardless of increased 3PA, there are a lot of factors decreasing FTA.

But....it still is
Where I get confused is that I've seen many people claim that the current league is a "FT fest" compared to previous eras, but they are saying this on " feeling", not on data. It's not possible for us to argue that seasons with slower pace and close to 30 FTA/G had you watching fewer FT's than now. It simply doesn't make sense.

Now if someone complains about a type of foul being given out, that's different, but that's not many times what is happening, it's people making the claim that there are more and or a higher percentage of FTA, but there is data, I can fact check my perception or feeling.

Where it can go down hill is that some people have pre-determined that their perception or feeling is correct and don't want objective verification, so they just double down on the impossible claim that its a FT fest compared to the past, or shift the goalpost and confuse the discussion by talking about other things that aren't actually whether there are a higher percentage of FT's shot. It simply can't make sense that if a fewer percentage of plays end in FTA and there are fewer FTA while playing more possessions, that the current game is a FT fest in comparison to the past. 3PT fest, yes.

OP is usually one of the more decent posters around here but this premise is straight nonsense.

I'm not surprised that a fan of the Freethrow Sixers is preemptively making a thread about FTA being down across the league and attempting to somehow (unsuccessfully) to dismantle the argument of preferential treatment for players like Embiid or Harden.

Claiming we need to watch copious amounts of "side by side" footage of Jokic and Embiid or even Lebron and Embiid in order for us to have an opinion is humorous considering most people that watch basketball have watched copious amounts of footage of all those players.
Lebron has led or nearly led the league in drives many seasons and yet his FTA and FTr is significantly lower than Embiid's. I'm a long time Lebron detractor and it's clear to me that he has not benefited extensively from weak FTA calls his entire career.

Jokic is a more glaring example, he's one of the most disrespected stars in the league as far as the contact he takes, defenders frequently use two hands on him in the post.

Comparing total FTA over seasons is silly, it ignores any rule or play-style changes in the league. More 3's are being chucked up which means less contact which means less shooting fouls which means less FTA. That's not a sign that certain players aren't flopping/flailing/hooking/begging for calls - and by certain players I mean Joel Embiid and James Harden.

I can't speak for others but the issue isn't just FTAs, it's how those attempts are garnered. I think most of us are fine with a player getting to the line repeatedly if he's taking real hits and is looking to score the ball not just bait defenders into barely touching them.

Ask this question in your OP - "Which is preferable to you; 30 FTA a game but flops/flails/baiting aren't rewarded or 25 FTA with all the usual Harden tricks"? Most of us will opt for the first despite it being more time at the FT line. We want fairness and currently there isn't any with the way Harden/Embiid are being reffed.