B-b-b-but Heat don't have a superstar!

[jfs1000d]

Heat fans act like rest of nba doesn’t know Jimmy is a good player. He is terrific. Hall of Fame player.


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[KyRo23]

This thread is the sole reason I'd love to see Miami lose idk what it is

[Pennebaker]

Seriously if you ran with this narrative then you should be ashamed. If 2020 never happened I could understand but people took '21 as the rule rather than the exception. Heat came off a long playoff run with a shortened off season so what you saw was dead legs. Playoff Butler is a selfless superstar. That is all.

Dude. They're in the conference finals in a strange and weak era complete with a pandemic and political strife. so relax. historically this heat team is relative garbage. relatively speaking, compared to dynasties.

[Zasterror]

Seriously if you ran with this narrative then you should be ashamed. If 2020 never happened I could understand but people took '21 as the rule rather than the exception. Heat came off a long playoff run with a shortened off season so what you saw was dead legs. Playoff Butler is a selfless superstar. That is all.

Dude. They're in the conference finals in a strange and weak era complete with a pandemic and political strife. so relax. historically this heat team is relative garbage. relatively speaking, compared to dynasties.

This post was so asinine that it should be reported.

[The High Cyde]

Butler making me eat hella crow, good ****

It’s looking like his lackluster performance against the Bucks in the playoffs last year was an aberration, maybe due to the short rest.

He’s playing phenomenal, and is one of the few players who raise their game in the playoffs. Heat are in great hands.

[Raps in 4]

Jimmy haters in shambles. Sixers could have been a dynasty if they didn't let him go.

[Raps in 4]

Seriously if you ran with this narrative then you should be ashamed. If 2020 never happened I could understand but people took '21 as the rule rather than the exception. Heat came off a long playoff run with a shortened off season so what you saw was dead legs. Playoff Butler is a selfless superstar. That is all.

Dude. They're in the conference finals in a strange and weak era complete with a pandemic and political strife. so relax. historically this heat team is relative garbage. relatively speaking, compared to dynasties.

Asterisk ECF

[Pennebaker]

Seriously if you ran with this narrative then you should be ashamed. If 2020 never happened I could understand but people took '21 as the rule rather than the exception. Heat came off a long playoff run with a shortened off season so what you saw was dead legs. Playoff Butler is a selfless superstar. That is all.

Dude. They're in the conference finals in a strange and weak era complete with a pandemic and political strife. so relax. historically this heat team is relative garbage. relatively speaking, compared to dynasties.

This post was so asinine that it should be reported.

It's not. It's all true. Relatively speaking. And no one can deny that this is and has been a bizarre era - between 2019 and today and continuing until however long.

Ask yourself this. Would a Butler-led Heat team ever make any Finals without the assistance of a pandemic? I'm not so sure. I think this is the only era a team led by him can make it that far.

[AirP.]

I mean they don't. Jimmy Butler's probably my favorite player but he's never had the skillset of a superstar.. he makes up for it by being the mentally toughest guy on the court and has a knack for rising to the occasion in big moments. Similar to Reggie Miller in that way.. completely different player obviously but also a guy that makes you go "huh? that's it?" when you look at his regular season numbers.

Both guys are chronic overachievers and winners despite arguably never at any point in their careers having been one of the top 10 players in the league. Sadly Reggie and the Pacers could never quite get over the hump.. here's to hoping Jimmy and the Heat will.

He wasn't a superstar. I was thinking the same as you, he's always been kind of a medium usage, good efficiency jack of all trades sort of thing. But if you look at what he's doing this year at 32 in those playoffs, he's literally a different guy.
30% usage with 62% true shooting, bunch or rebounds, great D, these are Lebron-ish numbers.

Only question is, can he keep it up all the way. Because if he can this is definitely superstar performance IMO.

Butler sacrifices his shot attempts to try to make his team better. If you talk to Miami fans they sometimes get frustrated with Butler for attacking the basket, having a good oppertunity to score and then passing out to an open 3pt shooter so they can get the shot and possibly stay in the rhythm of the game.

If Butler prioritized scoring I think he could put up around 30 a night, it's just not a high priority. No he can't just will a score for a particular play but if he decides to be a scorer he can score.

Butler's first year in Miami they started asking if Butler was losing his ability to score so he dropped 30 points in the first half in Phoenix, then went back to how he usually plays in the regular season the 2nd half of that game.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

When he was with the Bulls he scored 2 points in the first half then had a 40 point 2nd half to end with 42 points.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Many "superstars" are so good they can dictate that they're the system, Butler tries to play within the system and year after year after year puts up SUPERSTAR advanced stats.

Just looking at the MVP level players vs Butler this season, using Dean Oliver's ORTG and DRTG calculations(from Basketball-Reference) trying to extract what a player is doing while on the court we see this...
BTW... I don't compare main players vs rolelayers because it's much easier to do better in a limited role.

Code: Select all

Jokic   ORTG 126, DRTG 105, overall a +21 per 100 possessions.  <= MVP
Giannis ORTG 124, DRTG 106, overall a +18 per 100 possessions.  <= MVP candidate
Butler  ORTG 124, DRTG 106, overall a +16 per 100 possessions. <= might not make an all-nba team, didn't score enough.
Embiid ORTG 119, DRTG 105, overall a +14 per 100 possessions.  <= MVP candidate
Luka    ORTG 110, DRTG 107, overall a +3 per 100 possessions
Tatum ORTG 113, DRTG 106, overall a +7 per 100 possessions. 
Booker ORTG 113, DRTG 109, overall a +4 per 100 possessions.
T.YoungORTG 119, DRTG 118, overall a +1 per 100 possessions.


Butler's ORTG-DRTG(how much he helps a team on BOTH sides of the court) has been at the other MVP players levels for years now. Even in his las season in Chicago he was ORTG 123, DRTG 106 for a +17. In Philly it dropped because Simmons had to have the ball and Butler's role seemed to be what Covington did for Philly and he only put up a ORTG 120, DRTG 109 for a +11, those playoffs for Philly he put up a 121 ORG, 107 DRTG for an overall +14. Simmons was actually a +12 but played mostly as a roleplayer on offense and Embiid put up only a +6 in those playoffs.

If people didn't notice in game 1 of the ECF, Butler played normal the 1st half, with the team not doing well he forced his will on offense and defense and not only removed the deficit but gave Miami a lead. He erases 2 possessions of Boston's at a critical time in the game and gave Miami 4 easy points off back to back steals.

I think Butler could absolutely move his FGA from under 15 to 20 and average 30 a night if he wanted to, but he's understood for a while he needs his teammates but has the capability carry a team(doesn't mean he always does).

[Sedale Threatt]

Heat fans act like rest of nba doesn’t know Jimmy is a good player. He is terrific. Hall of Fame player.

Eh, I'm always surprised when he has monster games like he did last night. He lit the Lakers up twice in the Finals like that and it was one of the more frustrating experiences I can remember as a fan (insofar as far as you can be frustrated while winning a championship). Dude can't shoot for sht, isn't overly big or athletic or skilled ... why can't we keep this dude in check? But credit to him; he plays to his strengths and when he gets calls like that he's a true beast.

[NO-KG-AI]

He's got a point if you're definition of a superstar is enhancing a great team culture, empowering the players around you, putting up superstar numbers when it matters the most, playing fantastic defense, and carrying your team on a deep playoff run.

Jimmy doesn't care about his numbers. That's what a lot of people don't seem to understand about him. We've seen many games where he scores 5 points on 8 shots and dishes out 11 assists, but Herro, Strus or Vincent go for 28 and the team wins easily. He's a different type of superstar, but he clearly is one. It's time to give the man his due and recognize who he is as a player...

That's your definition of a superstar, and that guy is fine in very rare and specialized circumstances.

Mine is a guy that is a perennial MVP threat, a virtual lock for high all NBA honors, and someone that can and will annually carry a team's offense or defense(or both) if needed in both the regular and post season. Guys that can't scratch top 10 MVP voting, or can't get above all NBA 3rd team are no what I consider superstar level talents.

If Jimmy was foregoing getting big numbers and won so many titles that we couldn't deny it, it would be one thing. As his, he's an all NBA 3rd team guy, a guy that had a single 10th place MVP finish in 12 seasons, and a finals appearance. I don't think those accolades are underrating what he's done, I think he's comfortably in that realm.

I also think he's a lot better than some guys that are clearly more talented overall because of his approach to the game and his mindset. He just doesn't make the cut for Superstar for what I consider one, but it's fine if he makes it for someone else. He's comfortably an all star, capable as a first option, and can function fluidly next to other top scorers/option A style players. He's a perfect fit for the Heat in terms of what the front office wants from their star player.

I don't know how you deny what he's doing is superstar level, but that's your choice. We'll ride our tier two star as far as he'll take us, which is apparently pretty damn far. I'm quite pleased with our glorified role player...

That's very dramatic. You're so hung up on a word that everyone is applying their own definition to, that's obviously different from yours. Unless you're trying to convince me that I have to put him in the same tier as someone like Giannis or Jokic and that he's equally as good as them?

[FNQ]

Heat fans act like rest of nba doesn’t know Jimmy is a good player. He is terrific. Hall of Fame player.


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I'm really bad at figuring out who is and who isn't a HoFer.. but my first thought when I read this was... is he a HoF player? Like if he retired right now, would he make it?

[tamaraw08]

19/64 from the field (29.7%)
+\- of -86 over 4 games (negative 21.5 per game)
-.09 OBPM, -.04 DBPM, -1.4BPM, 0 VORP
-.2 Win Shares

Jimmy “superstar” Butlers stats last season against the Bucks while getting swept. Probably the worst performance in a playoff series I’ve ever seen.

Or his fans can say, Bucks played elite defense while Boston failed to stop him.
His stats versus the Lakers in the finals,
26 pts, 8 rebs and 10 assists at 65.8TS%, at least 3 games he was guarded by Lakers' Anthony Davis

[Edrees]

Heat fans act like rest of nba doesn’t know Jimmy is a good player. He is terrific. Hall of Fame player.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm really bad at figuring out who is and who isn't a HoFer.. but my first thought when I read this was... is he a HoF player? Like if he retired right now, would he make it?

If he retired now no because he his career totals in all categories would be weak sauce since he'd be missing out on like 7 years of stats. However, if he retired now and you extrapolated his final career stats based on his current trajectory, yes he's a HOFer.

[tamaraw08]

19/64 from the field (29.7%)
+\- of -86 over 4 games (negative 21.5 per game)
-.09 OBPM, -.04 DBPM, -1.4BPM, 0 VORP
-.2 Win Shares

Jimmy “superstar” Butlers stats last season against the Bucks while getting swept. Probably the worst performance in a playoff series I’ve ever seen.

Or his fans can say, Bucks played elite defense while Boston failed to stop him.
His stats versus the Lakers in the finals,
26 pts, 8 rebs and 10 assists at 65.8TS%, at least 3 games he was guarded by Lakers' Anthony Davis

[BBallFreak]

That's your definition of a superstar, and that guy is fine in very rare and specialized circumstances.

Mine is a guy that is a perennial MVP threat, a virtual lock for high all NBA honors, and someone that can and will annually carry a team's offense or defense(or both) if needed in both the regular and post season. Guys that can't scratch top 10 MVP voting, or can't get above all NBA 3rd team are no what I consider superstar level talents.

If Jimmy was foregoing getting big numbers and won so many titles that we couldn't deny it, it would be one thing. As his, he's an all NBA 3rd team guy, a guy that had a single 10th place MVP finish in 12 seasons, and a finals appearance. I don't think those accolades are underrating what he's done, I think he's comfortably in that realm.

I also think he's a lot better than some guys that are clearly more talented overall because of his approach to the game and his mindset. He just doesn't make the cut for Superstar for what I consider one, but it's fine if he makes it for someone else. He's comfortably an all star, capable as a first option, and can function fluidly next to other top scorers/option A style players. He's a perfect fit for the Heat in terms of what the front office wants from their star player.

I don't know how you deny what he's doing is superstar level, but that's your choice. We'll ride our tier two star as far as he'll take us, which is apparently pretty damn far. I'm quite pleased with our glorified role player...

That's very dramatic. You're so hung up on a word that everyone is applying their own definition to, that's obviously different from yours. Unless you're trying to convince me that I have to put him in the same tier as someone like Giannis or Jokic and that he's equally as good as them?

I was really more sarcastic rather than dramatic. I do feel Jimmy is playing LIKE a superstar, and I don't think that can be denied. In all honesty, though, I'm fine with him being "overlooked" or "disrespected" if you will. It kinda seems to motivate him and the entire team on some level. No one has talked about us all season, even though we've been the number 1 seed in the East. Milwaukee, Boston, Philly, and even Brooklyn were given more credit as real contenders from Day 1. So it's all good.

I just think this run by Jimmy and Miami should be something we all learn from. Sometimes, we miss what's right in front of us. Sometimes we overlook the real deal for the "sexier" pick. This is one of those times...

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't know how you deny what he's doing is superstar level, but that's your choice. We'll ride our tier two star as far as he'll take us, which is apparently pretty damn far. I'm quite pleased with our glorified role player...

That's very dramatic. You're so hung up on a word that everyone is applying their own definition to, that's obviously different from yours. Unless you're trying to convince me that I have to put him in the same tier as someone like Giannis or Jokic and that he's equally as good as them?

I was really more sarcastic rather than dramatic. I do feel Jimmy is playing LIKE a superstar, and I don't think that can be denied. In all honesty, though, I'm fine with him being "overlooked" or "disrespected" if you will. It kinda seems to motivate him and the entire team on some level. No one has talked about us all season, even though we've been the number 1 seed in the East. Milwaukee, Boston, Philly, and even Brooklyn were given more credit as real contenders from Day 1. So it's all good.

I just think this run by Jimmy and Miami should be something we all learn from. Sometimes, we miss what's right in front of us. Sometimes we overlook the real deal for the "sexier" pick. This is one of those times...

I gave Jimmy a lot of flack for his exits from Chicago, Minnesota, and Philly, and after the Bubble run, I was like you know what man, Jimmy was right about everything, I concede lol. He's have a fantastic run, I'm pulling for the Heat, because I like how they build and what they stand for. And I'm a Pat Riley stan.

[svart]

So let me get this straight. A player has a career playoff high game and you have a reactionary thread complaining about others using an entire year as a rule over an exception? You don’t see the irony here?

If the thread is a reaction to his point total today then yes, it's reactionary. But Butler has demonstrated a career's worth of star impact, and was the clear best player on a Finals-bound team just 2 years ago

Yes, this is what i do not understand. Some people have the memory of a gold fish.

He clearly proved himself in the bubble. But after last year it seems everybody forgot that it ever happened. It's crazy.

[BBallFreak]

That's very dramatic. You're so hung up on a word that everyone is applying their own definition to, that's obviously different from yours. Unless you're trying to convince me that I have to put him in the same tier as someone like Giannis or Jokic and that he's equally as good as them?

I was really more sarcastic rather than dramatic. I do feel Jimmy is playing LIKE a superstar, and I don't think that can be denied. In all honesty, though, I'm fine with him being "overlooked" or "disrespected" if you will. It kinda seems to motivate him and the entire team on some level. No one has talked about us all season, even though we've been the number 1 seed in the East. Milwaukee, Boston, Philly, and even Brooklyn were given more credit as real contenders from Day 1. So it's all good.

I just think this run by Jimmy and Miami should be something we all learn from. Sometimes, we miss what's right in front of us. Sometimes we overlook the real deal for the "sexier" pick. This is one of those times...

I gave Jimmy a lot of flack for his exits from Chicago, Minnesota, and Philly, and after the Bubble run, I was like you know what man, Jimmy was right about everything, I concede lol. He's have a fantastic run, I'm pulling for the Heat, because I like how they build and what they stand for. And I'm a Pat Riley stan.

Cool!

I feel like Jimmy was always meant to end up working in this type of system with a guy like Riley. It just seems to fit him better.

As far as his exit from other teams, with the exception of Philly which I don't believe he was wrong for, I still have some issue with the way he left. I don't think he actually wanted to leave Philly initially. I think they let him go.

[Ice Man]

He clearly proved himself in the bubble. But after last year it seems everybody forgot that it ever happened. It's crazy.

Few people realize how good that Butler is, because his playing style is kinda dull (few 3s, no crossovers, few highlight dunks, basic passes, lots of free throws) and because in the regular season, he stops taking shots when his team is comfortably in the lead, thereby depressing his scoring average. (He would have no problem scoring, say, 27 points per game if that is what he wanted to do.)

Thus, if you ask even fairly involved NBA fans, they would tell you that in this playoffs Luka has probably been best, Jimmy close behind, then Tatum and Curry close behind them. Yet on PERs -- a statistic that doesn't particularly favor Butler, because he has had the lowest usage of the four players -- the playoff results so far have been -

Butler 33.1
Luka 28.0
Steph 23.7
Tatum 19.5