Tatum VS Luka

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Who's the better player overall?

Tatum
208
27%
Luka
559
73%
 
Total votes: 767

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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1521 » by MavsDirk41 » Thu Jun 1, 2023 1:25 am

CoP wrote:
nikster wrote:
CoP wrote:Luka's offensive gap is only significant as a passer. Both are three-level scorers with the ability to get to the line. Scoring volume difference is due to FGA/g. DRB the same. TS% about the same. Accounting for Tatum's better defense and playing more games, it comes out about even.

Luka fans were drooling over the prospect of Kyrie coming to town. Many had penciled him in as the MVP favorite when that move happened. Then they fell off the cliff.

Meanwhile, the Mavs dump Brunson and Brunson leads the Knicks to the cusp of the conference finals while having his best season ever. KP goes to WAS and his numbers improve. Wood comes to DAL and his numbers decline.

Maybe it's less that Luka is carrying everyone else and more that Luka's playstyle suffocates others somewhat.

And then in the playoff there is a massive difference in scoring. Punctuated by the fact that Luka creates far more of his shots himself, making him more resiliant in the playoffs. In the playoffs about 50% of Tatums field goals are assisted, Lukas 20%. Luka is a far superior offensive player in the playoffs....and its not even close. Wonder how many more offensive collapses you need to see from the Celtics

Kyrie didnt decline or get smothered at all (Tho the team fell apart due to horrible roster construction). Woods points per 100 possession is actually a career high. He's just playing less because he's not very good. Kristaps only improvement is staying healthy for the most of a season. Brunson has a case...but he was one of the highest usage players in the league this year. Im sure Brunson would fit better with Tatum, but im also sure Brown is a better fit with Luka then he is in Boston.

Playoffs? Luka couldn't even make the playoffs with Kyrie this year. Harp on the Celtics' offensive collapses all you want, at least they happened in the conference finals or the finals. Luka didn't even make the play-in. Does that matter at all, or nah? Luka, Kyrie and some role players couldn't do better than an OKC team that was 2 games under .500?

JB would languish alongside Luka, just like nearly every other SG he plays along that has to watch him dribble it around for most of the possession before either shooting or kicking it with little time left on the shot clock. Middle of the league in offense this year (16th), bottom third of the league in offense last year (24th), and middle of the league in offense the year before that (17th). I'm sure, according to Luka fans, this is none of Luka's fault and Cuban just has to build a better team around him.



Ok so lets go with this lineup:

Powell
Bullock
Tatum
Green
Irving

You think Tatum could do better playing along side Dwight Powell, Reggie Bullock, and Josh Green?
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1522 » by nikster » Thu Jun 1, 2023 1:39 am

CoP wrote:
nikster wrote:
CoP wrote:Luka's offensive gap is only significant as a passer. Both are three-level scorers with the ability to get to the line. Scoring volume difference is due to FGA/g. DRB the same. TS% about the same. Accounting for Tatum's better defense and playing more games, it comes out about even.

Luka fans were drooling over the prospect of Kyrie coming to town. Many had penciled him in as the MVP favorite when that move happened. Then they fell off the cliff.

Meanwhile, the Mavs dump Brunson and Brunson leads the Knicks to the cusp of the conference finals while having his best season ever. KP goes to WAS and his numbers improve. Wood comes to DAL and his numbers decline.

Maybe it's less that Luka is carrying everyone else and more that Luka's playstyle suffocates others somewhat.

And then in the playoff there is a massive difference in scoring. Punctuated by the fact that Luka creates far more of his shots himself, making him more resiliant in the playoffs. In the playoffs about 50% of Tatums field goals are assisted, Lukas 20%. Luka is a far superior offensive player in the playoffs....and its not even close. Wonder how many more offensive collapses you need to see from the Celtics

Kyrie didnt decline or get smothered at all (Tho the team fell apart due to horrible roster construction). Woods points per 100 possession is actually a career high. He's just playing less because he's not very good. Kristaps only improvement is staying healthy for the most of a season. Brunson has a case...but he was one of the highest usage players in the league this year. Im sure Brunson would fit better with Tatum, but im also sure Brown is a better fit with Luka then he is in Boston.

Playoffs? Luka couldn't even make the playoffs with Kyrie this year. Harp on the Celtics' offensive collapses all you want, at least they happened in the conference finals or the finals. Luka didn't even make the play-in. Does that matter at all, or nah? Luka, Kyrie and some role players couldn't do better than an OKC team that was 2 games under .500?

JB would languish alongside Luka, just like nearly every other SG he plays along that has to watch him dribble it around for most of the possession before either shooting or kicking it with little time left on the shot clock. Middle of the league in offense this year (16th), bottom third of the league in offense last year (24th), and middle of the league in offense the year before that (17th). I'm sure, according to Luka fans, this is none of Luka's fault and Cuban just has to build a better team around him.

Irving is fall more ball dominant then Brown and is getting the ball just fine. Brown can't dribble, Luka is a perfect costar for him.
I was wondering where you got those team stats, then I realized your using ppg instead of offensive rating, Its 2023 :lol: Mavs play at a slow pace. Their ranking in offensive ratings ranking since 2019: 1st, 9th, 15th, 6th.

Yeah Mavs had a defensive collapse with a poorly constructed roster. Tatums been lucky hes had a great roster around him his whole career. Still had a chance if Management didnt force the tank. Its one bad season (really one bad stretch), where he's had a lot of personal **** going on. He's had 3 straight playoff runs where he consistently elevated his game.

Yes Luka has a lot of maturing to do, defensive issues, etc... but I'm taking him over Tatum in the playoffs any day. Tatum has a chance to change that of course. But Celtics have had multiple playoff runs where the teams and Tatums lack of playmaking has been their biggest weakness.
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1523 » by damanick10 » Thu Jun 1, 2023 1:43 am

Luka >>> Tatum. If only he could disappear like Tatum and still win playoff games.
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Re: Tatum VS L 

Post#1524 » by Archx » Thu Jun 1, 2023 1:52 am

CobraCommander wrote:
Archx wrote:
Fadeaway_Jumper wrote:
I stand on the fact that 2 All NBA players should at least be able to make the PLAY- IN no matter the circumstances

My Lakers at full strength just got swept by the Nuggets. For all the hate that Booker and KD get they took two games from the Nuggets as literally a two man team. KD landed on the suns at the same time as Kyrie did the Mavs and missed a ton of games.


This post just shows how little you know of the dysfunctional Mavs team coached by probably one of the bottom 5 coaches in the league. Suns still had more depth than Mavs and a center capable of providing rim protection and averaging 20/10. Mavs have almost nothing after Doncic... They had an injuried Kyrie and that's it.

How many passes does Luka get for missing the play in?

I think Tatum has the edge because he is that much better on defense and closer to Luka on offens.

I get why y’all have Luka ahead but Luka year 6 now- time to stop coddling him like he 18...Luka has been playing pro ball over 10 years and is still not in condition, crying about fouls, getting techs and not playing defense. Add the on the court character issues with the lack of commitment to fitness and Tatum is much better than Luka.



I didn't compare him to Tatum, i simply replied to a poster who had no clue what happened to Mavs as a team.

About this topic's thread. Look at the % and number of votes, it's really a non debate at this point. Mavs had a failed season with everything that was going on it's honestly a no surprise what happened at the end. Blame the FO, blame Kyrie, blame Doncic, blame Elon Musk, i honestly couldn't care less. All i know is, when Mavs get their **** together and build a competent team, then we can talk about this.


CobraCommander wrote:But it’s razor thin- but at some point y’all gotta stop saying Luka ain’t got help when he got Kyrie Brunson KP Spence etc - At some point Luka gotta be responsible too.


No way you just wrote this :lol:

1) Him and Brunson are good friends and went to WCF together, no?

2) He publicly lobbied Rick to give KP more touches vs LAC and Rick denied when adressed with the media. KP was so bad, Reggie Jackson was able to guard him in the post. I suggest you re-watch those LAC series. Luka had +32 On/Off averaging 35ppg when KP and Brunson were a complete no show.

3) Spencer Dinwiddie?? Get real man...
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1525 » by robbie84 » Thu Jun 1, 2023 2:33 am

Luka is the best wing in the NBA.
As a Celtics fan the only players I'd trade Tatum for are Jokic or Luka.
Luka with the right supporting cast is a dynasty kind of super star like Curry/Lebron/Kobe/Durant etc..
One day Marcus Smart will be defensive player of the year, mark my words.
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1526 » by durden_tyler » Thu Jun 1, 2023 3:22 am

Luka's passing gets him the advantage here. Both have "takeover mode" mentality and that'll work well in the playoffs. i just hope Cuban doesn't waste any time reloading this Mavs squad as they are wasting Luka's early success if they continue with these sad moves.
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1527 » by Dupp » Thu Jun 1, 2023 3:33 am

Luka is still substantially better than Tatum. Same it’s always been. Don’t let team success fool you.
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1528 » by CoP » Thu Jun 1, 2023 10:39 am

dakomish23 wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:I said I’d take Tatum two years ago even though I’m a big Luka fan boy but it’s razor thin for me.

It’s like asking if I want Lebron or Kobe. Can win a championship with either as your main guy IMO


I stand by this.

Yep, as I said earlier in the thread, they're about even. It's the hyperbole on either side which is ridiculous.
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1529 » by CoP » Thu Jun 1, 2023 10:48 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:
CoP wrote:
nikster wrote:And then in the playoff there is a massive difference in scoring. Punctuated by the fact that Luka creates far more of his shots himself, making him more resiliant in the playoffs. In the playoffs about 50% of Tatums field goals are assisted, Lukas 20%. Luka is a far superior offensive player in the playoffs....and its not even close. Wonder how many more offensive collapses you need to see from the Celtics

Kyrie didnt decline or get smothered at all (Tho the team fell apart due to horrible roster construction). Woods points per 100 possession is actually a career high. He's just playing less because he's not very good. Kristaps only improvement is staying healthy for the most of a season. Brunson has a case...but he was one of the highest usage players in the league this year. Im sure Brunson would fit better with Tatum, but im also sure Brown is a better fit with Luka then he is in Boston.

Playoffs? Luka couldn't even make the playoffs with Kyrie this year. Harp on the Celtics' offensive collapses all you want, at least they happened in the conference finals or the finals. Luka didn't even make the play-in. Does that matter at all, or nah? Luka, Kyrie and some role players couldn't do better than an OKC team that was 2 games under .500?

JB would languish alongside Luka, just like nearly every other SG he plays along that has to watch him dribble it around for most of the possession before either shooting or kicking it with little time left on the shot clock. Middle of the league in offense this year (16th), bottom third of the league in offense last year (24th), and middle of the league in offense the year before that (17th). I'm sure, according to Luka fans, this is none of Luka's fault and Cuban just has to build a better team around him.



Ok so lets go with this lineup:

Powell
Bullock
Tatum
Green
Irving

You think Tatum could do better playing along side Dwight Powell, Reggie Bullock, and Josh Green?

I think he'd make the playoffs. Yep.

Just throwing hypotheticals out there isn't a legit argument.

"Switch Luka and Tatum and Luka is repeating" is the other that keeps circulating.

It's quite obvious that Tatum has a better supporting cast. No doubt about that. And what ended up happening is that Tatum led a team that was 32 games over .500, 2nd best in the league, to Game 7 of the conference finals. Meanwhile, Luka led a team to 6 games under .500, 21st best in the league, to missing the play-in. That is a huge difference in outcomes that more than reflects the difference in their supporting casts.
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1530 » by CoP » Thu Jun 1, 2023 10:56 am

nikster wrote:
CoP wrote:
nikster wrote:And then in the playoff there is a massive difference in scoring. Punctuated by the fact that Luka creates far more of his shots himself, making him more resiliant in the playoffs. In the playoffs about 50% of Tatums field goals are assisted, Lukas 20%. Luka is a far superior offensive player in the playoffs....and its not even close. Wonder how many more offensive collapses you need to see from the Celtics

Kyrie didnt decline or get smothered at all (Tho the team fell apart due to horrible roster construction). Woods points per 100 possession is actually a career high. He's just playing less because he's not very good. Kristaps only improvement is staying healthy for the most of a season. Brunson has a case...but he was one of the highest usage players in the league this year. Im sure Brunson would fit better with Tatum, but im also sure Brown is a better fit with Luka then he is in Boston.

Playoffs? Luka couldn't even make the playoffs with Kyrie this year. Harp on the Celtics' offensive collapses all you want, at least they happened in the conference finals or the finals. Luka didn't even make the play-in. Does that matter at all, or nah? Luka, Kyrie and some role players couldn't do better than an OKC team that was 2 games under .500?

JB would languish alongside Luka, just like nearly every other SG he plays along that has to watch him dribble it around for most of the possession before either shooting or kicking it with little time left on the shot clock. Middle of the league in offense this year (16th), bottom third of the league in offense last year (24th), and middle of the league in offense the year before that (17th). I'm sure, according to Luka fans, this is none of Luka's fault and Cuban just has to build a better team around him.

Irving is fall more ball dominant then Brown and is getting the ball just fine. Brown can't dribble, Luka is a perfect costar for him.
I was wondering where you got those team stats, then I realized your using ppg instead of offensive rating, Its 2023 :lol: Mavs play at a slow pace. Their ranking in offensive ratings ranking since 2019: 1st, 9th, 15th, 6th.

Yeah Mavs had a defensive collapse with a poorly constructed roster. Tatums been lucky hes had a great roster around him his whole career. Still had a chance if Management didnt force the tank. Its one bad season (really one bad stretch), where he's had a lot of personal **** going on. He's had 3 straight playoff runs where he consistently elevated his game.

Yes Luka has a lot of maturing to do, defensive issues, etc... but I'm taking him over Tatum in the playoffs any day. Tatum has a chance to change that of course. But Celtics have had multiple playoff runs where the teams and Tatums lack of playmaking has been their biggest weakness.

Yeah I used ppg. Why does DAL play at such a slow pace? Because of the reasons I already stated - Luka dribbles too much. They had the 3rd slowest pace in the league because Luka stagnates the offense. If you want to talk about offensive rating on a team with the 3rd slowest pace, then it's irrelevant unless you're also mentioning the defensive and net ratings. And Dallas was 19th in net rating this season.

If you want to talk about offensive rating, then Boston had a higher offensive rating than Dallas the last two years. Are you telling me this offensive savant in Luka couldn't lead his team to a higher offensive rating than the Celtics, even while playing alongside one of the better scorers in history in Kyrie this season, and a player last year in Brunson that has proven to be an elite offensive talent?

Also, Tatum's and Luka's TS% this season were both 61%. Luka is an extraordinary talent, but as of now, it's not absurd for someone to prefer Tatum. As I said earlier, the only significant advantage that Luka has over Tatum is in playmaking. Tatum makes up for that gap with significant advantages in defense and availability. I really don't have an issue with people preferring Luka over Tatum. It's the comments about it not being close that are stupid.
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1531 » by nikster » Thu Jun 1, 2023 12:13 pm

CoP wrote:
nikster wrote:
CoP wrote:Playoffs? Luka couldn't even make the playoffs with Kyrie this year. Harp on the Celtics' offensive collapses all you want, at least they happened in the conference finals or the finals. Luka didn't even make the play-in. Does that matter at all, or nah? Luka, Kyrie and some role players couldn't do better than an OKC team that was 2 games under .500?

JB would languish alongside Luka, just like nearly every other SG he plays along that has to watch him dribble it around for most of the possession before either shooting or kicking it with little time left on the shot clock. Middle of the league in offense this year (16th), bottom third of the league in offense last year (24th), and middle of the league in offense the year before that (17th). I'm sure, according to Luka fans, this is none of Luka's fault and Cuban just has to build a better team around him.

Irving is fall more ball dominant then Brown and is getting the ball just fine. Brown can't dribble, Luka is a perfect costar for him.
I was wondering where you got those team stats, then I realized your using ppg instead of offensive rating, Its 2023 :lol: Mavs play at a slow pace. Their ranking in offensive ratings ranking since 2019: 1st, 9th, 15th, 6th.

Yeah Mavs had a defensive collapse with a poorly constructed roster. Tatums been lucky hes had a great roster around him his whole career. Still had a chance if Management didnt force the tank. Its one bad season (really one bad stretch), where he's had a lot of personal **** going on. He's had 3 straight playoff runs where he consistently elevated his game.

Yes Luka has a lot of maturing to do, defensive issues, etc... but I'm taking him over Tatum in the playoffs any day. Tatum has a chance to change that of course. But Celtics have had multiple playoff runs where the teams and Tatums lack of playmaking has been their biggest weakness.

Yeah I used ppg. Why does DAL play at such a slow pace? Because of the reasons I already stated - Luka dribbles too much. They had the 3rd slowest pace in the league because Luka stagnates the offense.

If you want to talk about offensive rating on a team with the 3rd slowest pace, then it's irrelevant unless you're also mentioning the defensive and net ratings. And Dallas was 19th in net rating this season. Besides that, Boston had a higher offensive rating than Dallas the last two years. Are you telling me this offensive savant in Luka couldn't lead his team to a higher offensive rating than the Celtics, even while playing alongside one of the better scorers in history in Kyrie this season, and a player last year in Brunson that has proven to be an elite offensive talent?

Luka is an extraordinary talent, but as of now, it's not absurd for someone to prefer Tatum. As I said earlier, the only significant advantage that Luka has over Tatum is in playmaking. Tatum makes up for that gap with a significant advantage in defense and availability.

But playing at a slow pace is only a problem if it hurts your offense because your missing out on easier transition buckets...but if your efficiency is high what's the difference? Your the one who brought up offensive ppg to try to Luka can't lead a good offense. I know there D is bad, thats why they missed the playoffs.

And your criticizing Luka for the pace he plays it, in the playoffs Boston is playing at a lower pace then the Mavs did In the regular season. Maybe that's why Boston faltered and Lukas playoff scoring Hass been more resilient

Celtics are way more talented then Mavs last 2 years. and Luka had Kyrie for less then a 3rd of the season.

I know you said his only advantage is playmaking. Because your ignoring shot creation. The amount of shots Luka creates for himself vs Tatum is massive.
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Re: Tatum VS L 

Post#1532 » by CobraCommander » Thu Jun 1, 2023 12:36 pm

Archx wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:
Archx wrote:
This post just shows how little you know of the dysfunctional Mavs team coached by probably one of the bottom 5 coaches in the league. Suns still had more depth than Mavs and a center capable of providing rim protection and averaging 20/10. Mavs have almost nothing after Doncic... They had an injuried Kyrie and that's it.

How many passes does Luka get for missing the play in?

I think Tatum has the edge because he is that much better on defense and closer to Luka on offens.

I get why y’all have Luka ahead but Luka year 6 now- time to stop coddling him like he 18...Luka has been playing pro ball over 10 years and is still not in condition, crying about fouls, getting techs and not playing defense. Add the on the court character issues with the lack of commitment to fitness and Tatum is much better than Luka.



I didn't compare him to Tatum, i simply replied to a poster who had no clue what happened to Mavs as a team.

About this topic's thread. Look at the % and number of votes, it's really a non debate at this point. Mavs had a failed season with everything that was going on it's honestly a no surprise what happened at the end. Blame the FO, blame Kyrie, blame Doncic, blame Elon Musk, i honestly couldn't care less. All i know is, when Mavs get their **** together and build a competent team, then we can talk about this.


CobraCommander wrote:But it’s razor thin- but at some point y’all gotta stop saying Luka ain’t got help when he got Kyrie Brunson KP Spence etc - At some point Luka gotta be responsible too.


No way you just wrote this :lol:

1) Him and Brunson are good friends and went to WCF together, no?

2) He publicly lobbied Rick to give KP more touches vs LAC and Rick denied when adressed with the media. KP was so bad, Reggie Jackson was able to guard him in the post. I suggest you re-watch those LAC series. Luka had +32 On/Off averaging 35ppg when KP and Brunson were a complete no show.

3) Spencer Dinwiddie?? Get real man...

ArchX - you know me! I crazily bet before the Kyrie trade the MAVZ would make the finals (I’m crazy)

Then I bet Again they would make the finals when kyrie got there- (now I’m just wasting money)

I love Luka as a talent- but he isn’t Tatum cause he REFUSES to care about defense and conditioning.

It’s frustrating as hell- it’s like I’m watching the guy with the world in his hands..: but he ain’t in the playoffs or in the MVP running cause he refuses to do the little things.

If you watch the Gil podcast with Dinwiddie- Dinwiddie does HIS BEST to say - Luka is amazing but isn’t commited to winning - without getting in trouble with Luka: Gil and the whole crew said-‘ “watch out if Luka gets in shape”.

Then watch anything from the greats on why they have MJ as the best and Kobe as second when it comes to wings…

They say MJ wanted to be the best on both ends- Kobe wanted to be the best on both ends and they criticize Lebron for NOT taking the best guy on defense. The comment was MJ and Kobe would take shutting you down as seriously as scoring on you.

I think Tatum and Giannis see that and Lebron and Luka don’t - (not to criticize Lebron here) I think Luka is erroneously taking a page out of harden and lebrons book Vs Kobe and mikes… and while Lebron is in elite shape - someone like Luka could benefit from someone kicking his @$$ and saying - “you are not ready to be the face of the league cause you cry too much, ain’t in shape and don’t play defense”.

ArchX. We don’t know Luka personally- but man - I hope next year ain’t like last year! We watching one of the guys with the best potential go from potentially top 20-30 guy to being a tmac or Dwight level guy.

Tatum? If tatum gets a ring in Boston all will he forgiven - he is building a playoff resume of big stat games and wins… in Boston- the failures will be forgotten if he wins a ring and hangs a banner- see Paul Pierce! He ain’t Kobe lol but damn Boston loves him
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1533 » by Archx » Thu Jun 1, 2023 12:38 pm

CoP wrote:
nikster wrote:
CoP wrote:Playoffs? Luka couldn't even make the playoffs with Kyrie this year. Harp on the Celtics' offensive collapses all you want, at least they happened in the conference finals or the finals. Luka didn't even make the play-in. Does that matter at all, or nah? Luka, Kyrie and some role players couldn't do better than an OKC team that was 2 games under .500?

JB would languish alongside Luka, just like nearly every other SG he plays along that has to watch him dribble it around for most of the possession before either shooting or kicking it with little time left on the shot clock. Middle of the league in offense this year (16th), bottom third of the league in offense last year (24th), and middle of the league in offense the year before that (17th). I'm sure, according to Luka fans, this is none of Luka's fault and Cuban just has to build a better team around him.

Irving is fall more ball dominant then Brown and is getting the ball just fine. Brown can't dribble, Luka is a perfect costar for him.
I was wondering where you got those team stats, then I realized your using ppg instead of offensive rating, Its 2023 :lol: Mavs play at a slow pace. Their ranking in offensive ratings ranking since 2019: 1st, 9th, 15th, 6th.

Yeah Mavs had a defensive collapse with a poorly constructed roster. Tatums been lucky hes had a great roster around him his whole career. Still had a chance if Management didnt force the tank. Its one bad season (really one bad stretch), where he's had a lot of personal **** going on. He's had 3 straight playoff runs where he consistently elevated his game.

Yes Luka has a lot of maturing to do, defensive issues, etc... but I'm taking him over Tatum in the playoffs any day. Tatum has a chance to change that of course. But Celtics have had multiple playoff runs where the teams and Tatums lack of playmaking has been their biggest weakness.

Yeah I used ppg. Why does DAL play at such a slow pace? Because of the reasons I already stated - Luka dribbles too much. They had the 3rd slowest pace in the league because Luka stagnates the offense. If you want to talk about offensive rating on a team with the 3rd slowest pace, then it's irrelevant unless you're also mentioning the defensive and net ratings. And Dallas was 19th in net rating this season.

If you want to talk about offensive rating, then Boston had a higher offensive rating than Dallas the last two years. Are you telling me this offensive savant in Luka couldn't lead his team to a higher offensive rating than the Celtics, even while playing alongside one of the better scorers in history in Kyrie this season, and a player last year in Brunson that has proven to be an elite offensive talent?

Also, Tatum's and Luka's TS% this season were both 61%. Luka is an extraordinary talent, but as of now, it's not absurd for someone to prefer Tatum. As I said earlier, the only significant advantage that Luka has over Tatum is in playmaking. Tatum makes up for that gap with significant advantages in defense and availability. I really don't have an issue with people preferring Luka over Tatum. It's the comments about it not being close that are stupid.



You keep mentioning Kyrie this Kyrie that. He has been with Mavs for less than half a season and played great. But had major injury issues and also missed a lot of games.

You are severly over simplifying things here. Mavs had top 5 half court offenses in the league for the past few years. That is because of slow paced and methodical play of Doncic. Mavs problems go FAR beyond their offense though. And this is something you people can't comprehend or don't want to understand.


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Re: Tatum VS L 

Post#1534 » by Archx » Thu Jun 1, 2023 12:42 pm

CobraCommander wrote:ArchX - you know me! I crazily bet before the Kyrie trade the MAVZ would make the finals (I’m crazy)


:lol: I told you it was a bad idea. We kinda knew the way they played that it won't be sustainable for the entire year. And then trade made it even worse. Mavs are a pure roller coaster, if you want to bet on a team, try to avoid betting on them :D
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1535 » by CobraCommander » Thu Jun 1, 2023 12:48 pm

nikster wrote:
CoP wrote:
nikster wrote:Irving is fall more ball dominant then Brown and is getting the ball just fine. Brown can't dribble, Luka is a perfect costar for him.
I was wondering where you got those team stats, then I realized your using ppg instead of offensive rating, Its 2023 :lol: Mavs play at a slow pace. Their ranking in offensive ratings ranking since 2019: 1st, 9th, 15th, 6th.

Yeah Mavs had a defensive collapse with a poorly constructed roster. Tatums been lucky hes had a great roster around him his whole career. Still had a chance if Management didnt force the tank. Its one bad season (really one bad stretch), where he's had a lot of personal **** going on. He's had 3 straight playoff runs where he consistently elevated his game.

Yes Luka has a lot of maturing to do, defensive issues, etc... but I'm taking him over Tatum in the playoffs any day. Tatum has a chance to change that of course. But Celtics have had multiple playoff runs where the teams and Tatums lack of playmaking has been their biggest weakness.

Yeah I used ppg. Why does DAL play at such a slow pace? Because of the reasons I already stated - Luka dribbles too much. They had the 3rd slowest pace in the league because Luka stagnates the offense.

If you want to talk about offensive rating on a team with the 3rd slowest pace, then it's irrelevant unless you're also mentioning the defensive and net ratings. And Dallas was 19th in net rating this season. Besides that, Boston had a higher offensive rating than Dallas the last two years. Are you telling me this offensive savant in Luka couldn't lead his team to a higher offensive rating than the Celtics, even while playing alongside one of the better scorers in history in Kyrie this season, and a player last year in Brunson that has proven to be an elite offensive talent?

Luka is an extraordinary talent, but as of now, it's not absurd for someone to prefer Tatum. As I said earlier, the only significant advantage that Luka has over Tatum is in playmaking. Tatum makes up for that gap with a significant advantage in defense and availability.

But playing at a slow pace is only a problem if it hurts your offense because your missing out on easier transition buckets...but if your efficiency is high what's the difference? Your the one who brought up offensive ppg to try to Luka can't lead a good offense. I know there D is bad, thats why they missed the playoffs.

And your criticizing Luka for the pace he plays it, in the playoffs Boston is playing at a lower pace then the Mavs did In the regular season. Maybe that's why Boston faltered and Lukas playoff scoring Hass been more resilient

Celtics are way more talented then Mavs last 2 years. and Luka had Kyrie for less then a 3rd of the season.

I know you said his only advantage is playmaking. Because your ignoring shot creation. The amount of shots Luka creates for himself vs Tatum is massive.

Do you think the delta between their defense makes a difference in where you see these guys?

Ie if tatum is a 8 on defense and Luka a 3- and Luka a 8 on offense and Tatum a 6.5… would you take a cumulative 14.5 in tatum over an 11 with Luka..:?

Just asking because they both great and never has won anything yet so it splitting hairs… frog hairs!
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Re: Tatum VS L 

Post#1536 » by CobraCommander » Thu Jun 1, 2023 12:54 pm

Archx wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:ArchX - you know me! I crazily bet before the Kyrie trade the MAVZ would make the finals (I’m crazy)


:lol: I told you it was a bad idea. We kinda knew the way they played that it won't be sustainable for the entire year. And then trade made it even worse. Mavs are a pure roller coaster, if you want to bet on a team, try to avoid betting on them :D

Y’all convinced me to love the Luka experience - it’s ja, Luka, curry, Zion as must see tv- and when I watch the Mavs it’s hard not to expect more. I didn’t anticipate Luka just losing his mind about the bad calls etc and just checking out on defense OR how bad kidd is as a coach. Kidd definitely worse coach in league - maybe Bostons coach nearly as bad…

But y’all convinced me to love the Mavs! And that Brunson wasn’t the driver of that finals run! Now I’m broke lol

But I’m taking the Mavs again to come in 3rd in west behind Denver and the suns next year! I’m crazy but Luka has to see a lot of the Mavs failures are on him as a player and a leader

And gonna come back like MJ or Kobe or Giannis or Jokic committed being individually great so the team follows them to greatness

Btw - how insane is it that a out of shape - one sided player like Luka is considered better than Tatum ? Think about how good we have to see Lukas offense when Tatum offense is great toooo
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Re: Tatum VS L 

Post#1537 » by Archx » Thu Jun 1, 2023 1:11 pm

CobraCommander wrote:
Archx wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:ArchX - you know me! I crazily bet before the Kyrie trade the MAVZ would make the finals (I’m crazy)


:lol: I told you it was a bad idea. We kinda knew the way they played that it won't be sustainable for the entire year. And then trade made it even worse. Mavs are a pure roller coaster, if you want to bet on a team, try to avoid betting on them :D

Y’all convinced me to love the Luka experience - it’s ja, Luka, curry, Zion as must see tv- and when I watch the Mavs it’s hard not to expect more. I didn’t anticipate Luka just losing his mind about the bad calls etc and just checking out on defense OR how bad kidd is as a coach. Kidd definitely worse coach in league - maybe Bostons coach nearly as bad…

But y’all convinced me to love the Mavs! And that Brunson wasn’t the driver of that finals run! Now I’m broke lol

But I’m taking the Mavs again to come in 3rd in west behind Denver and the suns next year! I’m crazy but Luka has to see a lot of the Mavs failures are on him as a player and a leader

And gonna come back like MJ or Kobe or Giannis or Jokic committed being individually great so the team follows them to greatness

Btw - how insane is it that a out of shape - one sided player like Luka is considered better than Tatum ? Think about how good we have to see Lukas offense when Tatum offense is great toooo


Honestly i have no clue what will happen with Mavs. I'm kinda afraid of Kyrie's constant health issues and Cuban wants to max him. Then there is still the same problem that persists since 2011, which is having a proper good rim protection center and rebounder. They also have some bad contracts on the roster that they'll try to get rid of. At this point anything can happen but we kinda learned to never trust their FO decisions.

Really think twice if you want to bet on Mavs. Then there is FIBA tournament coming up and it will be interesting to see how certain players come in to the training camp. Lots of unknowns at this point.
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1538 » by Froob » Thu Jun 1, 2023 1:11 pm

damanick10 wrote:Luka >>> Tatum. If only he could disappear like Tatum and still win playoff games.

Which one is the one that scored 51 in a game 7?
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Re: Tatum VS Luka 

Post#1539 » by MavsDirk41 » Thu Jun 1, 2023 3:16 pm

CoP wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
CoP wrote:Playoffs? Luka couldn't even make the playoffs with Kyrie this year. Harp on the Celtics' offensive collapses all you want, at least they happened in the conference finals or the finals. Luka didn't even make the play-in. Does that matter at all, or nah? Luka, Kyrie and some role players couldn't do better than an OKC team that was 2 games under .500?

JB would languish alongside Luka, just like nearly every other SG he plays along that has to watch him dribble it around for most of the possession before either shooting or kicking it with little time left on the shot clock. Middle of the league in offense this year (16th), bottom third of the league in offense last year (24th), and middle of the league in offense the year before that (17th). I'm sure, according to Luka fans, this is none of Luka's fault and Cuban just has to build a better team around him.



Ok so lets go with this lineup:

Powell
Bullock
Tatum
Green
Irving

You think Tatum could do better playing along side Dwight Powell, Reggie Bullock, and Josh Green?

I think he'd make the playoffs. Yep.

Just throwing hypotheticals out there isn't a legit argument.

"Switch Luka and Tatum and Luka is repeating" is the other that keeps circulating.

It's quite obvious that Tatum has a better supporting cast. No doubt about that. And what ended up happening is that Tatum led a team that was 32 games over .500, 2nd best in the league, to Game 7 of the conference finals. Meanwhile, Luka led a team to 6 games under .500, 21st best in the league, to missing the play-in. That is a huge difference in outcomes that more than reflects the difference in their supporting casts.



Luka took the Mavs to the WCFs last year with the same team minus Brunson for Irving. They were above .500 and were on track to make the playoffs before the Kyrie Irving trade. They were awful after that trade and tanked the last couple games of the year. The fact is Tatum has never been on a bad team since his time with the Celtics while Luka has never had the same type of supporting cast. Luka is better/more creative offensively and is a much much better playmaker. He passes the ball like Magic Johnson and has the size to get his shot off in the paint against anyone defending him. He absolutely cooked Leonard and George in the playoffs. Tatum is a much better defender but Luka is the better player at this point.
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Re: Tatum VS L 

Post#1540 » by CobraCommander » Thu Jun 1, 2023 3:46 pm

Archx wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:
Archx wrote:
:lol: I told you it was a bad idea. We kinda knew the way they played that it won't be sustainable for the entire year. And then trade made it even worse. Mavs are a pure roller coaster, if you want to bet on a team, try to avoid betting on them :D

Y’all convinced me to love the Luka experience - it’s ja, Luka, curry, Zion as must see tv- and when I watch the Mavs it’s hard not to expect more. I didn’t anticipate Luka just losing his mind about the bad calls etc and just checking out on defense OR how bad kidd is as a coach. Kidd definitely worse coach in league - maybe Bostons coach nearly as bad…

But y’all convinced me to love the Mavs! And that Brunson wasn’t the driver of that finals run! Now I’m broke lol

But I’m taking the Mavs again to come in 3rd in west behind Denver and the suns next year! I’m crazy but Luka has to see a lot of the Mavs failures are on him as a player and a leader

And gonna come back like MJ or Kobe or Giannis or Jokic committed being individually great so the team follows them to greatness

Btw - how insane is it that a out of shape - one sided player like Luka is considered better than Tatum ? Think about how good we have to see Lukas offense when Tatum offense is great toooo


Honestly i have no clue what will happen with Mavs. I'm kinda afraid of Kyrie's constant health issues and Cuban wants to max him. Then there is still the same problem that persists since 2011, which is having a proper good rim protection center and rebounder. They also have some bad contracts on the roster that they'll try to get rid of. At this point anything can happen but we kinda learned to never trust their FO decisions.

Really think twice if you want to bet on Mavs. Then there is FIBA tournament coming up and it will be interesting to see how certain players come in to the training camp. Lots of unknowns at this point.

I’m not betting the Mavs again (yet) - but the point is this- WHEN Luka puts it together mentally and physically- he is going to win a ring- Even Cuban and the Mavs GM won’t be able to stop him. Luka seems inevitable. It could be next year- I feel like a degenerate gambler talking myself into betting Luka wins next year lol

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