Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?!

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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#21 » by og15 » Mon May 16, 2022 8:35 pm

timO wrote:weak mental choke

How much of it was mental? Payne is their third creator, if he's neutralized, you load up on Booker, crowd CP, can Crowder, Bridges and Ayton make things happen?

Cyrusman122000 wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:Most teams don't play hard for all 82 games of the year and those that do tend to get overrated these days. While the Suns' collapse was crazy, I caught myself thinking "they don't really have THAT many great pieces" throughout the whole playoffs. They needed epic CP3 performances just to get past the Pelicans. Mavs sold out on Booker last night having recognized CP3 wasn't right and no one on the Suns could do a thing.

We just need to adjust our understanding of what a great regular season record means in today's NBA. My Raptors are the same with the way we maximized minutes. If we just look at rosters, is it really surprising that the Suns are out in the 2nd round at the hands of Luka - a top 5 player in the league?

I said this in the "which team is likely to surprise" thread in which I picked the Mavs: in the NBA playoffs, the team with the best player always has a shot. Luka is in a different stratosphere compared to Booker and CP3.


Why couldn’t the suns do the same? Sell out on Luka, trap him every time, and make others beat them on the road?
Mavs role players shot around 45% from 3PT for the series, doesn't seem like that would have worked, and it wasn't working in previous games. Also Brunson isn't old like CP and can still attack in iso and get by guys, and Dinwiddie who would be their Cam Payne was actually good in the game.

It actually seemed like staying on their shooters and letting Luka get his but crowding the other guys would work better. Suns basically did neither, they just played defense without a specific plan, trying to contain everyone.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#22 » by dWadeOwnzYou » Mon May 16, 2022 8:38 pm

The Suns antics and celebration in game 2 really pissed off the Mavs, especially Luka. The Mavs just took it personal and took their game to another level because of it. That's all there is to it. Unless you know the series is already over, you never do things to give the other team extra ammunition unnecessarily...just ask Kevin Durant.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#23 » by ForeverTFC » Mon May 16, 2022 8:54 pm

Cyrusman122000 wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:Most teams don't play hard for all 82 games of the year and those that do tend to get overrated these days. While the Suns' collapse was crazy, I caught myself thinking "they don't really have THAT many great pieces" throughout the whole playoffs. They needed epic CP3 performances just to get past the Pelicans. Mavs sold out on Booker last night having recognized CP3 wasn't right and no one on the Suns could do a thing.

We just need to adjust our understanding of what a great regular season record means in today's NBA. My Raptors are the same with the way we maximized minutes. If we just look at rosters, is it really surprising that the Suns are out in the 2nd round at the hands of Luka - a top 5 player in the league?

I said this in the "which team is likely to surprise" thread in which I picked the Mavs: in the NBA playoffs, the team with the best player always has a shot. Luka is in a different stratosphere compared to Booker and CP3.


Why couldn’t the suns do the same? Sell out on Luka, trap him every time, and make others beat them on the road?


Two reasons in my opinion:
1. You can't shut down Luka like you can Booker. You can make it tough on him but no one is stopping him. I never appreciated the power of a true superstar until I watched Kawhi on my own team so I know you also understand what it means to have the player that just can't be taken out
2. Mavs have players that can go one on one in the half court. Once Booker was shut down, it was CP3 or bust and CP3 was clearly done.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#24 » by Bobbymcgee » Mon May 16, 2022 8:55 pm

First mistake is believing in CP3. Dude just lets you down.

Ayton has a bad attitude right now. Rightfully so IMO but you just can't have that if you are trying to win a championship.

Not sure what Booker's deal is. Sometimes he looks legit, other times not so much. Maybe he is more Bradley Beal than Kobe Bryant.

The rest of the team is okay but not that great either.

I think the Pelicans shook them and wore them down as well.

I think they regress next season unless they somehow fix the Ayton situation.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#25 » by CS707 » Mon May 16, 2022 9:05 pm

Monty is a guy that I'll always root for but his comments about the strength of their opponents bugged me yesterday, specifically saying New Orleans wasn't an 8th seed. Came off as if he, and by extension the team, had it in their minds that the comp was just too tough. I guess there's not much to say after getting beaten they way they did but between that and the response to the Ayton question I'm wondering if there's more to the story behind the scenes.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#26 » by WestGOAT » Mon May 16, 2022 9:12 pm

Image

This happend
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#27 » by Stone » Mon May 16, 2022 9:18 pm

The Kardashian curse.........its real
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#28 » by Catchall » Mon May 16, 2022 9:27 pm

The Suns scored only 5 points in the first 6 mins of the 2nd quarter. At that point, they got down by 17 and they all mailed it in.

They didn't show much energy or toughness on the defensive end and just kind of went through the motions. On offense, they just missed a ton of shots. Just a terrible effort overall considering the circumstances.

The game was over more or less before Monty Williams could make much of an adjustment.

It's possible the Mavs' defense just busted up the Suns' sets.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#29 » by Pachinko_ » Mon May 16, 2022 9:59 pm

Perfect storm
Luka happened first, he made some unguardable shots that you cant really do anything about, and that can knock the wind off any team. Dinwiddie and Brunson also kept piling up. Booker had a bad game and CP looked injured, wasn't moving well at all. And then with every minute Mavs were getting more excited and active and the Suns disappointed and passive. And at some point they just gave up.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#30 » by Jesus_H_Macy » Mon May 16, 2022 10:00 pm

I can try to answer these:

Cyrusman122000 wrote:It’s easy for us to just say booker and Ayton played like crap and Luka balled out, but when you really look at this there were multiple collapses Involved and I’m in total shock at what happened.

1.) Monty Williams was the 2x coach of year who coached a team to the best record in the league. He was honestly out coached in both playoff series this year and could not make ANY adjustments to slow down the mavs 3 point shooting unlike Kidd who made great adjustments.
What happened?


I think this is kind of showing that Monty is good but not as good as he was cracked up to be. He really wasn't impressive his first season here. I was very skeptical about him. I think CP probably had as much to do with us being so good last year and this year and Monty's coaching did. He got outcoached badly by Bud (who the Bucks would've fired if KD's toes hadn't been on the 3pt line) in the Finals last year. Seemed like he had learned something from that but the Pels and Mavs series have proven he didn't. His adjustments are too slow, when he even makes them at all. And I other than maybe Phil Jackson what successful coach has ever had a non-stop easy going demeanor? He never gets animated. Doesn't get into the teams junk and challenge them when they play with crap effort. Doesn't call timely timeouts. Suns will have a run going against them and they'll show Monty on the sidelines and he just has this **** eating grin on his face like he doesn't know what's going on. I don't think we should fire him just because but if we think there's someone better out there I'd be all for it. At this point I can't see us winning a ship with him as the captain.

Cyrusman122000 wrote:2.) suns had the 3rd best defensive rating in the nba this season but that was no where to be found in this series as they got torched. Mavs shot like peak warriors from 3 in their 4 wins.
What happened?


I'm really not sure, but it happened earlier in the season, not in the Mavs series. It's hard to remember everything now but after they lost to the Warriors on Christmas I thought it affected them a little bit. Not much, but they weren't quite the same. They were still great on D on and off though. Then when they locked up the best league record they just stopped caring and they never got their mojo back on D. Ayton was still very good on D this year but he slipped a bit compared to last year, probably because of his increased offensive workload. Bridges had some odd periods of not great D too, I think probably for the same reason as Ayton. But as good as Bridges is he isn't strong enough to guard very tall and/or big strong wings. He can bother them but can't contain them like he can the smaller guys. Ayton is normally really good (for a C) at rotating out on the perimeter and defending, but he hasn't been lately. Book was actually pretty good on D this year. CP and Crowder are a year older and slipped a bit. Payne was terrible on D all year and Craig wasn't good like he was last year either.

Cyrusman122000 wrote:3.) Cameron Payne went from a valuable back up point guard/ role player who played very well last year to an unplayable scrub overnight.
What happened?


He has sucked all season. IIRC I think he was injured at the beginning of the season. Whatever happened he never got his 3pt shot going this year, and his whole game is based on that. Since he couldn't hit 3s every other part of his game was affected. He did have one or two stretches of great play though. When CP was injured he averaged near 10 assists per game. That Payne could have still helped us in the playoffs even if he couldn't shoot. Many of us Suns fans wanted Monty to bench him for Aaron Holiday in the Pels series.

Cyrusman122000 wrote:4.) Chris Paul at the age of 36 years and 363 days looked like he was aging very well. 2 weeks later at the age of 37 years old and 14 days looked completely washed up.
What happened?


Who the **** knows. I guess he was injured? If he was he should have sat his ass down on the bench. The cracks were showing in the Pels series for him but that was 5 straight games of retirement-level play. I'd say it HAS to be injury because no other explanation makes sense. It's not like his body would know the exact second he turned 37 and just all of a sudden shut down.


Cyrusman122000 wrote:5.) Just looking at the mental state of the team they did not look that upset during the game. You wouldn’t think they were getting humiliated on their home court in a game 7 while they won 64 games. It seemed like they completely lost their spirit and confidence.
What happened?


Exactly. The team is mentally broken. I don't know what happened. Maybe a combo of the DA stuff, of whatever is going on with CP, of Monty being Monty, and of Book still not quite seeing the forest for the trees. But they collectively looked like they gave up, either the instant Game 7 started or maybe even before. Them winning Game 5 the way they did and then no-showing Game 6 reminded me of how they finished the regular season. Like they thought the series was over after Game 5 and when the Mavs didn't just roll over in Game 6 the Suns just said **** it this is too hard.

Cyrusman122000 wrote:6.) Ayton looked like he could feast and take advantage of the Mavs small ball. He had a good game 1 and then disappeared.
What happened?


I think you have to put at least some of this on Ayton, but it's more our gameplan (or lack thereof) than it is him, despite what a lot of Suns fans will tell you. He's given an extremely short leash to make mistakes compared to CP and Book.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#31 » by rapstarter » Mon May 16, 2022 10:02 pm

og15 wrote:
timO wrote:weak mental choke

How much of it was mental? Payne is their third creator, if he's neutralized, you load up on Booker, crowd CP, can Crowder, Bridges and Ayton make things happen?


They are still way too talented to only score 27 points in the first half at home. Mavs played well, but even all time great teams aren't THAT good. So much of it must have been mental.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#32 » by og15 » Mon May 16, 2022 10:04 pm

rapstarter wrote:
og15 wrote:
timO wrote:weak mental choke

How much of it was mental? Payne is their third creator, if he's neutralized, you load up on Booker, crowd CP, can Crowder, Bridges and Ayton make things happen?


They are still way too talented to only score 27 points in the first half at home. Mavs played well, but even all time great teams aren't THAT good. So much of it must have been mental.

Sorry, I was talking about the series, that part I agree for game 7. It was wild to see them just let themselves be played into Dallas' game plan and just keep going hoping something would change.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#33 » by Richard Miller » Mon May 16, 2022 10:20 pm

They struggled against the Pelicans - though they are definitely better team than their record suggests - a supposed championship favorite had to do much better than that. So the writing was on the wall
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#34 » by GOATTatum » Mon May 16, 2022 10:25 pm

Im guessing the Suns were too relaxed with them being at home, they thought it would be an easy win like games 1,2, and 5.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#35 » by picc » Mon May 16, 2022 10:46 pm

GOATTatum wrote:Im guessing the Suns were too relaxed with them being at home, they thought it would be an easy win like games 1,2, and 5.


Anyone watching could tell they were the opposite of relaxed.

Relaxed is what Dallas was.
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#36 » by dc » Mon May 16, 2022 10:49 pm

Jesus_H_Macy wrote: And I other than maybe Phil Jackson what successful coach has ever had a non-stop easy going demeanor? He never gets animated. Doesn't get into the teams junk and challenge them when they play with crap effort.


Also remember that Phil Jax, even if you consider him easy going, likely trash talked opposing teams/cities more than any other coach I can remember: Sacramento is a cow town and "semi-civilized", Orlando is a plastic city, Spurs should have an asterisk next to their 99' championship, Memphis looks like Dresden after the war, etc......
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#37 » by Pharmcat » Mon May 16, 2022 11:00 pm

They just ran into the best player ever
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#38 » by Cyrusman122000 » Mon May 16, 2022 11:05 pm

dc wrote:
Jesus_H_Macy wrote: And I other than maybe Phil Jackson what successful coach has ever had a non-stop easy going demeanor? He never gets animated. Doesn't get into the teams junk and challenge them when they play with crap effort.


Also remember that Phil Jax, even if you consider him easy going, likely trash talked opposing teams/cities more than any other coach I can remember: Sacramento is a cow town and "semi-civilized", Orlando is a plastic city, Spurs should have an asterisk next to their 99' championship, Memphis looks like Dresden after the war, etc......


Yup! His mind games were GOAT level
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#39 » by _qubik » Mon May 16, 2022 11:16 pm

Cyrusman122000 wrote:It’s easy for us to just say booker and Ayton played like crap and Luka balled out, but when you really look at this there were multiple collapses Involved and I’m in total shock at what happened.

1.) Monty Williams was the 2x coach of year who coached a team to the best record in the league. He was honestly out coached in both playoff series this year and could not make ANY adjustments to slow down the mavs 3 point shooting unlike Kidd who made great adjustments.
What happened?

2.) suns had the 3rd best defensive rating in the nba this season but that was no where to be found in this series as they got torched. Mavs shot like peak warriors from 3 in their 4 wins.
What happened?

3.) Cameron Payne went from a valuable back up point guard/ role player who played very well last year to an unplayable scrub overnight.
What happened?

4.) Chris Paul at the age of 36 years and 363 days looked like he was aging very well. 2 weeks later at the age of 37 years old and 14 days looked completely washed up.
What happened?


5.) Just looking at the mental state of the team they did not look that upset during the game. You wouldn’t think they were getting humiliated on their home court in a game 7 while they won 64 games. It seemed like they completely lost their spirit and confidence.
What happened?

6.) Ayton looked like he could feast and take advantage of the Mavs small ball. He had a good game 1 and then disappeared.
What happened?


1- playoffs is a different game, he was the best coach on the regular season

2- like the first question, its a different game, theres a lot of guys without a lot of experience, and the coach making no adjustment doesnt help, the coach job is to extract the best of his player in the game situation, it needs to adapt

3- Cameron Payne had one nice season and got his paycheck, now back to the old self

4- Dude is old as hell, and has a long history of unsuccess in the playoffs

5- Its a small franchise, clearly, its a very nice couple of seasons for the Suns, they are overachieving a lot

6- When have Ayton feasted against other team ?
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Re: Seriously, WTF happened to the Suns? This was multiple collapses involved?! 

Post#40 » by DoctorX » Mon May 16, 2022 11:23 pm

_qubik wrote:
Cyrusman122000 wrote:It’s easy for us to just say booker and Ayton played like crap and Luka balled out, but when you really look at this there were multiple collapses Involved and I’m in total shock at what happened.

1.) Monty Williams was the 2x coach of year who coached a team to the best record in the league. He was honestly out coached in both playoff series this year and could not make ANY adjustments to slow down the mavs 3 point shooting unlike Kidd who made great adjustments.
What happened?

2.) suns had the 3rd best defensive rating in the nba this season but that was no where to be found in this series as they got torched. Mavs shot like peak warriors from 3 in their 4 wins.
What happened?

3.) Cameron Payne went from a valuable back up point guard/ role player who played very well last year to an unplayable scrub overnight.
What happened?

4.) Chris Paul at the age of 36 years and 363 days looked like he was aging very well. 2 weeks later at the age of 37 years old and 14 days looked completely washed up.
What happened?


5.) Just looking at the mental state of the team they did not look that upset during the game. You wouldn’t think they were getting humiliated on their home court in a game 7 while they won 64 games. It seemed like they completely lost their spirit and confidence.
What happened?

6.) Ayton looked like he could feast and take advantage of the Mavs small ball. He had a good game 1 and then disappeared.
What happened?


1- playoffs is a different game, he was the best coach on the regular season

2- like the first question, its a different game, theres a lot of guys without a lot of experience, and the coach making no adjustment doesnt help, the coach job is to extract the best of his player in the game situation, it needs to adapt

3- Cameron Payne had one nice season and got his paycheck, now back to the old self

4- Dude is old as hell, and has a long history of unsuccess in the playoffs

5- Its a small franchise, clearly, its a very nice couple of seasons for the Suns, they are overachieving a lot

6- When have Ayton feasted against other team ?


I wouldn't say Phoenix is a large market, but neither is it small. It has the 10th biggest metro in the country. Also, the Suns historically have had a bunch good to elite teams throughout the years in almost every decade. They may not bounce back from this embarrassment immediately but at least in my lifetime it seems like every 7-10 years the Suns put out a good basketball team. That's all you can really ask from just about any franchise besides the Lakers.

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