This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins

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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#141 » by Ill News » Fri May 20, 2022 6:23 am

Nah, Wiggins is still pretty overrated. He's been great in GSW, but he's a 4th option there at best. He's only thriving because his workload is reduced to just making threes and defending his tail off, but if you ask him to shoulder a heavy load on offense you're gonna be in a world of trouble.

And please, he's not a *great* 2-way player. That term is being thrown around too much. Great 2-way players are Tatum, PG, Butler, Kawhi, Brown, Embiid. These are guys who can create offense while remaining elite on defense. Wiggins is not in the same stratosphere as those guys, he's an overpaid 3+D guy who got an undeserved All-Star spot this year.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#142 » by BobbyPortisEyes » Fri May 20, 2022 6:56 am

Imagine having to apologize to a guy who was supposed to be the next Kobe because he's successfully playing a Harrison Barnes role.

In all seriousness though, Andrew Wiggins is a great role player. He's a humble, down-to-earth dude and has always been a professional. The Warriors deserve credit for identifying him as a pretty seamless fit on the team not only due to his skillset but also his personality.
hauntedcomputer wrote:Jokic is just a stranger dribbling a basketball. The humility bit could well be a carefully crafted business model for all we know. It's actually getting as tiresome as egotistical bloviating at this point. "Look at me, look how humble I am!!"
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#143 » by Jables » Fri May 20, 2022 7:58 am

Nah I'm good. I never really shat on him, he's just not a star. The Curry effect man, everyone who plays with him seems to drain the credit from him. He's like an anti-LeBron.

But I'm glad Wiggins has found his place in the NBA, really blows the mind he ever got such a massive contract but not his fault the Wolves were stupid.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#144 » by JN61 » Fri May 20, 2022 8:23 am

DaPessimist wrote:He made the All-Star team. Let's not pretend he's underappreciated.

There was whole smear campaign by Curry fans how he shouldn't be an all-star to prop their guy as if he played with just bunch of nobodies.
Pennebaker wrote:And Bird did it while being a defensive liability. But he also made All-Defensive teams, which was another controversial issue regarding Bird and votes.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#145 » by rtiff68 » Fri May 20, 2022 9:27 am

JN61 wrote:
DaPessimist wrote:He made the All-Star team. Let's not pretend he's underappreciated.

There was whole smear campaign by Curry fans how he shouldn't be an all-star to prop their guy as if he played with just bunch of nobodies.


Proof?
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#146 » by runtmc » Fri May 20, 2022 10:05 am

FNQ wrote:
dennythedino wrote:
vagelis wrote:
Minny gave him the green light when he was 19, 20 and 21 years old. He had not the green light the next years(except maybe his last year with Ryan Saunders)
He averaged 17, 20 and 24ppg his first 3 years.
I don't know what people expected from him in such a young age.
He is a better player now, more skilled and better shooter. Players get better with the years and Wiggins is in his prime now.
If the current Wiggins played the same role he had in his young years he would have been unstoppable.
His handles are better and his shooting is better, better decision making, stronger etc.
You judjed him for his whole career based on his 20yo skills


He's doing great at his role but he's also on a max contract to be the 4th scoring option and maybe(?) 4th or 5th best player on the team.

I've seen people call him anywhere between 4th - 6th best player on this team

Are people actually putting Klay ahead of him? Or Poole? Or Looney?

Clear #3.. nostalgia going 2 ways if people see Wiggins as worse than Klay at this point


Clear #3? Obviously I think you put Curry and Dray ahead of him, but personally I'd put GP2's season above Wiggins' quite easily. Id personally also put OPJ's, Poole's, and Looney's (certainly not Klay though) seasons' above Wiggins', which for me, would slot Wiggins in at 7, though I think it's at least debatable with those 3, but that's more based on the fact Wiggins is starting/playing more minutes, and it's difficult to untangle those effects. I certainly wouldn't say it's crazy to put Wiggins above those last 3. That said, all 6 of those guys lead Wiggins in PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP, etc. Wiggins is 8th on the team in PER, 11th in WS/48, 10th in BPM, and 6th in VORP. Now, there is certainly some evidence from advanced stats in Wiggins' favor, for example Poole and Looney's various RAPTOR metrics aren't as good as Wiggins', but OPJ and especially GP2 fairly handily beat Wiggins in just about every advanced stat I can find.

If I could give a baseball analogy, I view Wiggins as more of a solid back of the rotation starter that will eat up a lot of innings, whereas GP2/OPJ are more like ace relievers. You can certainly argue about which is more valuable, but personally I tend to be biased more towards guys that are specialists (for this squad).
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#147 » by michaelm » Fri May 20, 2022 11:30 am

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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#148 » by michaelm » Fri May 20, 2022 11:31 am

JN61 wrote:
DaPessimist wrote:He made the All-Star team. Let's not pretend he's underappreciated.

There was whole smear campaign by Curry fans how he shouldn't be an all-star to prop their guy as if he played with just bunch of nobodies.

What really happened is that GSW ran something of a campaign for him to be an all-star which attracted criticism, so the reverse of what you contend as is usual with anything Curry or GSW related from you.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#149 » by brutalitops » Fri May 20, 2022 11:56 am

SunsLyf3 wrote:
brutalitops wrote:I'm sorry, is he suddenly not the most mediocre highest paid poorest performing player on Minnesota anymore because he's been ok at golden state? Didn't realise he's now in hindsight playing good defense at the wolves now

He took the cheque and mailed it in. The fact he's not performing and doing the small things on a title contender still screams he didn't care. So No. Not apologising. We still did well to kick his leech ass to the curb


Maybe it's Minnesota. Culture is more impactful than you think. Butler got ran out of town for trying to build a culture in Minnesota. Jokes on them.

Butler didnt try to change the culture. He wanted out after 1 season and Thibs refused to entertain the trade, Hence why he just turned up and acted like a prick to get his way

Dont let facts get in the way of your narritive however
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#150 » by michaelm » Fri May 20, 2022 11:58 am

runtmc wrote:
FNQ wrote:
dennythedino wrote:
He's doing great at his role but he's also on a max contract to be the 4th scoring option and maybe(?) 4th or 5th best player on the team.

I've seen people call him anywhere between 4th - 6th best player on this team

Are people actually putting Klay ahead of him? Or Poole? Or Looney?

Clear #3.. nostalgia going 2 ways if people see Wiggins as worse than Klay at this point


Clear #3? Obviously I think you put Curry and Dray ahead of him, but personally I'd put GP2's season above Wiggins' quite easily. Id personally also put OPJ's, Poole's, and Looney's (certainly not Klay though) seasons' above Wiggins', which for me, would slot Wiggins in at 7, though I think it's at least debatable with those 3, but that's more based on the fact Wiggins is starting/playing more minutes, and it's difficult to untangle those effects. I certainly wouldn't say it's crazy to put Wiggins above those last 3. That said, all 6 of those guys lead Wiggins in PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP, etc. Wiggins is 8th on the team in PER, 11th in WS/48, 10th in BPM, and 6th in VORP. Now, there is certainly some evidence from advanced stats in Wiggins' favor, for example Poole and Looney's various RAPTOR metrics aren't as good as Wiggins', but OPJ and especially GP2 fairly handily beat Wiggins in just about every advanced stat I can find.

If I could give a baseball analogy, I view Wiggins as more of a solid back of the rotation starter that will eat up a lot of innings, whereas GP2/OPJ are more like ace relievers. You can certainly argue about which is more valuable, but personally I tend to be biased more towards guys that are specialists (for this squad).

Looney runs him close, but is not as important in every single game. Peak Klay is obviously better, and I would be very happy if peak Klay returned to demote Wiggs, but that hasn’t happened yet. The other 2 players you mention I also value highly, but there is a reason he plays more minutes than they do, durability as well as ability, the first not unimportant. If he went down it would imo be the end of any title chances for GSW, not so for GPII and OPJ, much though I would like to have both playing. OPJ looked fantastic in his minutes in game 1, but no way is he playing 35 minutes; I would be delighted if he can just play every game.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#151 » by Crunch 99 » Fri May 20, 2022 1:18 pm

At Minnesota, the Towns - Wiggins combo were lackadaisical on defense. Imo, give credit to the Warriors' organization and Wiggins himself for molding Wiggins in to a very good two way player. A former second tier, good player that I watched, Gordon Hayward, is lifetime 13-4 against Wiggins in head to head matchups with a very efficient 19.9 ppg on 14 fga and .487/.507 shooting, but now we've got Wiggins doing an impressive job guarding one of the greatest offensive talents in the game (so far).
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#152 » by sp6r=underrated » Fri May 20, 2022 1:36 pm

TravisScott55 wrote:He was drafted to the wrong team


Let's not lose our mind with what is going on in Golden State. He's still playing well below the level of an average #1 pick and not all #1 picks are created equal. He was supposed to be a generational HOFer. He isn't showing anything like that.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#153 » by tsherkin » Fri May 20, 2022 1:41 pm

vagelis wrote:Minny gave him the green light when he was 19, 20 and 21 years old. He had not the green light the next years(except maybe his last year with Ryan Saunders)


Yes, that's how the draft works. As it has for so many others over the decades. He had plenty of green light his entire time in Minnesota, he just didn't develop the skills to be a worthwhile primary option.

I don't know what people expected from him in such a young age.


Yes, you do. They expected him to fill the expectations of his draft slot and role. They wanted him to be a quality volume scorer. That never happened.

He is a better player now, more skilled and better shooter.


Not really? He's leveraging corner 3s at a rate similar to his career rate. He's getting more straight catch-and-shoot opportunities, and he could always hit those. He is still weak to poor at the foul line and he still doesn't have a great long 2pt jumper. He was actually pretty weak from 10' to the 3pt line this year.

If the current Wiggins played the same role he had in his young years he would have been unstoppable.


That is obviously inaccurate.

You judjed him for his whole career based on his 20yo skills


No, I didn't. We're discussing what he's doing now, too. Even in Golden State, not acting as a focal scorer, playing against single coverage and getting more assisted buckets, he's still only marginally better than league-average scoring efficiency. He still doesn't consistently draw fouls, he still isn't an elite shooter.

You need to grasp that this guy was drafted to be a franchise player, and he isn't even an elite roleplayer right now. He suits Golden State's needs and he's connecting pretty well from 3 for them. He is mostly not that different from what he was in Minny. A little bit more polish in his handle and post game at times, but not to much effect relative to his earlier scoring output, even in this role. I can't stress enough how inaccurate most of what you have said in this thread has been.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#154 » by sp6r=underrated » Fri May 20, 2022 1:55 pm

ben10simmons wrote:
LewisnotMiller wrote:
ben10simmons wrote:Well in the 1998 NBA Finals, Pippen averaged 15.7 points, 6.8 rebounds, 4.8 assists, .410 field shooting, and struggled to play defense because of injury, so I think Wiggins could replace Pippen and do better than that 8-)


Awww...were not gonna talk seriously about this are we? I thought we were just mucking around.
You'd have to pace adjust the stats. 98 Finals, winning teams were scoring in the 80s. But sure...Wiggins could approximate 98 Pippen. Not so much 93 Pippen though.

Ultimately if there's a serious point here we agree on, I'd see Wiggins as a viable wing on a champion.

Also if Wiggins trained against MJ everyday for a decade, he'd become a substantially better player physically and mentally. God knows how weak Pippen would have been if he never trained with MJ :o


How is the cult of Jordan that denigrates all his teammates still running in 2022? One thing I love about Curry fans is they don't denigrate his teammates on the Warriors.

Bulls performance in 94/95 without Jordan including playoffs.

Code: Select all

W     L   W%       MOV
95   62   60.5%   3.57


They performed at a 50 win level w/o Jordan for a year and a half. There must have been a couple of guys on that team who were markedly better than 2022 Wiggins.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#155 » by AbeVigodaLive » Fri May 20, 2022 1:56 pm

KodiakBear wrote:Everybody ripped him for years in Minnesota calling him a bust and a bad teammate. Then when he was traded everybody said Minnesota won the trade by getting Dlo. In reality he is a great 2 way player who has been great for the Warriors during this postseason run.

Time for people to just accept while not as good as Embiid or Jokic, he is a damn good player.



Huh?

1) Minnesota gave up a highly prized 1st round pick in that deal. It wasn't a one-for-one trade. So you'll have to prove to me that there was any sort of consensus that MN won that trade hands-down.

2) Wiggins should have been ripped for how he played in Minnesota. Wiggins is playing better in Golden State as a key complementary two-way player... BUT... Wiggins underperformed in Minnesota largely because of inattentiveness and a lack of effort that was so bad that the owner made him promise to "try harder" in a ridiculous max contract negotiation.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#156 » by cam24thomas » Fri May 20, 2022 2:23 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
ben10simmons wrote:
LewisnotMiller wrote:
Awww...were not gonna talk seriously about this are we? I thought we were just mucking around.
You'd have to pace adjust the stats. 98 Finals, winning teams were scoring in the 80s. But sure...Wiggins could approximate 98 Pippen. Not so much 93 Pippen though.

Ultimately if there's a serious point here we agree on, I'd see Wiggins as a viable wing on a champion.

Also if Wiggins trained against MJ everyday for a decade, he'd become a substantially better player physically and mentally. God knows how weak Pippen would have been if he never trained with MJ :o


How is the cult of Jordan that denigrates all his teammates still running in 2022? One thing I love about Curry fans is they don't denigrate his teammates on the Warriors.

Bulls performance in 94/95 without Jordan including playoffs.

Code: Select all

W     L   W%       MOV
95   62   60.5%   3.57


They performed at a 50 win level w/o Jordan for a year and a half. There must have been a couple of guys on that team who were markedly better than 2022 Wiggins.

Those Bulls were like the Raptors without Kawhi, a regular season team....
50 win teams are a dime a dozen, and there are probably hundreds of them that were better than the 94/95 Bulls :)
Remember that was the year Pippen wasn't even mature enough to be on the court when Kukoc made a game-winner. So imagine if Pippen never practiced with MJ :o
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#157 » by SoulJah » Fri May 20, 2022 2:27 pm

DaPessimist wrote:He made the All-Star team. Let's not pretend he's underappreciated.


Exactly... and over lot more deserving players. He's probably more over-rated than anything.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#158 » by sp6r=underrated » Fri May 20, 2022 2:30 pm

ben10simmons wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
ben10simmons wrote:Also if Wiggins trained against MJ everyday for a decade, he'd become a substantially better player physically and mentally. God knows how weak Pippen would have been if he never trained with MJ :o


How is the cult of Jordan that denigrates all his teammates still running in 2022? One thing I love about Curry fans is they don't denigrate his teammates on the Warriors.

Bulls performance in 94/95 without Jordan including playoffs.

Code: Select all

W     L   W%       MOV
95   62   60.5%   3.57


They performed at a 50 win level w/o Jordan for a year and a half. There must have been a couple of guys on that team who were markedly better than 2022 Wiggins.

Those Bulls were like the Raptors without Kawhi, a regular season team....
50 win teams are a dime a dozen, and there are probably hundreds of them that were better than the 94/95 Bulls :)


They had 1 playoff opportunity to prove their abilities without Jordan: 94
They swept a Cleveland team who won 47 games.
They took the Knicks, who won 57 games and lost in G7 of the NBA finals, to 7 games and outscored them in that series.

What are you talking about?

It was pathetic in the 90s when Jordan fans trashed all his teammates. It is even more pathetic now when the data is readily available to show he had a very good supporting cast.
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#159 » by cam24thomas » Fri May 20, 2022 2:40 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
ben10simmons wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
How is the cult of Jordan that denigrates all his teammates still running in 2022? One thing I love about Curry fans is they don't denigrate his teammates on the Warriors.

Bulls performance in 94/95 without Jordan including playoffs.

Code: Select all

W     L   W%       MOV
95   62   60.5%   3.57


They performed at a 50 win level w/o Jordan for a year and a half. There must have been a couple of guys on that team who were markedly better than 2022 Wiggins.

Those Bulls were like the Raptors without Kawhi, a regular season team....
50 win teams are a dime a dozen, and there are probably hundreds of them that were better than the 94/95 Bulls :)


They had 1 playoff opportunity to prove their abilities without Jordan: 94
They swept a Cleveland team who won 47 games.
They took the Knicks, who won 57 games and lost in G7 of the NBA finals, to 7 games and outscored them in that series.

What are you talking about?

It was pathetic in the 90s when Jordan fans trashed all his teammates. It is even more pathetic now when the data is readily available to show he had a very good supporting cast.

How is sweeping a 47 win team impressive? Teams get swept all the time :lol:
Ohhhhhh Knicks got pushed to 7 games.... The year KG won the championship, his Celtics got pushed to 7 games by Atlanta and Cleveland too :D
Weak teams lose big games, and Pippen's Bulls are a prime example :x
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Re: This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins 

Post#160 » by Myth » Fri May 20, 2022 3:55 pm

rtiff68 wrote:
JN61 wrote:
DaPessimist wrote:He made the All-Star team. Let's not pretend he's underappreciated.

There was whole smear campaign by Curry fans how he shouldn't be an all-star to prop their guy as if he played with just bunch of nobodies.


Proof?

This is just funny to me. Wiggins likely only got voted in as a started because of the popularity of Steph Curry, and Steph Curry fans are supposedly mad about it? :lol:

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