Bob Cousy claps back at JJ Redick

[Antinomy]

Redick wasn’t talking about the 10% of players back then (Russell, Wilt) — it’s obvious that they were talented.

He’s referring to the guys who ACTUALLY WERE firemen & plumbers while playing in the league part-time — the “average” player per se.

Why is that hard for people to comprehend?

Imagine the stars of today & yesteryear going up against librarians on a nightly basis.

[The411]

Most of you missed the point/tone of what JJ was saying. Cousy's retort while funny was a logical fallacy.

Wilt was an transgenerational athlete who would have been dominannt in any era. However, It's not like 1960s NBA was made up of Wilts.

What JJ said was intentional hyperbole for emphasis.

The subtext to JJ's comments was that the league was 8 teams, most of the players had to work other jobs and segregation was still a massive issue.

It's a lot different to play PG against 5'10-6'2 athletically limited players than it is to play PG and be guarded be 6-6 6-8 athletic freaks.

There was a much greater athletic disparity from Wilt to the worst NBA player than there is from the best NBA athlete today to the worst by a significant margin.

While you can't compare players across eras you can comparatively assess aspects of an era.

It's the same reason that bringing up Russell's rings is ridiculous. There were 8 teams and there was a massive discrepancy between the teams in the early NBA in terms of their financial power. There was no salary cap and the best teams have a lot more money to put into scouting and team ammenities.

It's the same reason I laugh when people think John Wooden was a better basketball coach than Pete Newell.

[MrGoat]

Just ask yourself this, would you want the former MVP Bob Cousy from 56/57 running point for your team in 2022?

No, no you wouldn't

This is bad. Like, really bad. Do you even understand how bad this take is? I'm guessing not.

If you watched games 3 through 7 of Mavs Suns I'm pretty sure Suns fans would have rather had prime 28 year old 1956 Cousy than 37 year old Chris Paul in 2022

[mixerball]

but what did JJ say?

[Blame Rasho]

Redick is a complete moron.

If Cousy was allowed to travel, carry, etc. in today's game, he'd look like a whole different player. He would average around 60 ppg & 25 apg on today's soft defenses.

Well speaking of morons…. You made a pretty moronic post.

[KembaWalker]

Redick wasn’t talking about the 10% of players back then (Russell, Wilt) — it’s obvious that they were talented.

He’s referring to the guys who ACTUALLY WERE firemen & plumbers while playing in the league part-time — the “average” player per se.

Why is that hard for people to comprehend?

Imagine the stars of today & yesteryear going up against librarians on a nightly basis.

I don't understand whats wrong with plumbers or firemen if thats what they were in their off time. Its not like NBA players now don't have other jobs they do on top of playing professional basketball.

whats the difference between being a fireman in the offseason or a librarian as you say compared to LeBron James working as an actor in Space Jam? Or JJ Redick being a podcaster? Draymond Green working as a sideline reporter for TNT? Or Russell Westbrook designing a new dress to model and wear for his designer brand? Stephen Curry working an event for a new shoe release for UA? Shaq becoming a sworn in sherriff's deputy? Jimmy Butler buildng a coffee company? Ben Simmons and Kyrie streaming on Twitch? Kanter becoming a political activist?
its not like players now are sitting in the gym 24/7 either. they pursue other career paths even while playing. thats just smart

[ReggieSlater]

but what did JJ say?

Watch on YouTube

He was basically defending Paul and at the very end it turns into a lets compare players from the 50s to current era players.

[50yrceltsfan]

Just ask yourself this, would you want the former MVP Bob Cousy from 56/57 running point for your team in 2022?

No, no you wouldn't

Cousy would have Kyrie handles in 2022 no cap

Possible. Just not the foot speed or shooting needed to be in the league.

Athletic traits like speed, quickness, leaping ability, strength, hands, accuracy: no difference between 1965 and 2022. The same caliber of athletes.

Learned skills like long range shooting and between the legs dribbling: each generation moved the needle, based on role models, practice, expectations, rule changes, and exploding salaries. There was no 3-point line till 1980, which completely changed what players worked on, and very little national TV exposure till around that same time.

It would be unfair and misleading to transport a Cousy in a time machine to 2022, but if he were born in 1995 and exposed to today's environment, he'd have been successful in today's league. Cousy in particular was only 6' or 6'1, and went way back to the early 50's to early 60's. His younger teammates (Sam & KC Jones, John Havlicek) were more prototypical of today's players. Sam Jones at age 25 would be the fastest player in the NBA today, was 6'4", and could shoot the daylights out with a classic jumper. If you look a decade later to the 70's, you had guys like Pete Maravich, Julius Erving, Lew Alcindor, Dave Cowens, and many other incredible athletes who would all be instant stars in today's game.

[axeman23]

One thing I learned throughout my life, the reason we have more tools and resources today is because of the someone built the foundation from yesterday. So yes, a Bugatti is going to run faster, stronger than the 1st car ever made, but without someone making that first car, there would be no Bugatti.

Us, in present tense, needs to learn from the past and innovate for the future; while the past needs to adapt in present times and continue building for the future.

There's a saying in education and self-improvement: "Whatever gets measured gets better."

I'd invent my own supplementary saying and throw it into the business world (i.e., the world of professional basketball): "Whatever makes money gets measured."

Players are (generally) better today, but it's different times, different worlds, and different sports. Mostly, the improvements have a lot more to do with money than with technology, in my opinion. It's not that the world of physical human performance is that much more evolved, but rather that available resources are far more likely to be funneled in the direction of professional athletics than fifty years ago. There are technological advances that matter, too, of course, particularly in recovering from major injuries, but I think they're often oversold.

My waistline would like a word with you, good sir!

[Jasen777]

"Man, we're so primitive compared to the future."

Hopefully.

[Loneshot]

Redick wasn’t talking about the 10% of players back then (Russell, Wilt) — it’s obvious that they were talented.

He’s referring to the guys who ACTUALLY WERE firemen & plumbers while playing in the league part-time — the “average” player per se.

Why is that hard for people to comprehend?

Imagine the stars of today & yesteryear going up against librarians on a nightly basis.

It's because people search for motivation to hate the people they envy. Compared to the legends of basketball, many of today's top tier talent usually get trashed by fans as being overrated or not being able to hang with past eras.

[ChartFiction]

I got the best WNBA players over Bob Cousy.

[50yrceltsfan]

Most of you missed the point/tone of what JJ was saying. Cousy's retort while funny was a logical fallacy.

Wilt was an transgenerational athlete who would have been dominannt in any era. However, It's not like 1960s NBA was made up of Wilts.

What JJ said was intentional hyperbole for emphasis.

The subtext to JJ's comments was that the league was 8 teams, most of the players had to work other jobs and segregation was still a massive issue.

It's a lot different to play PG against 5'10-6'2 athletically limited players than it is to play PG and be guarded be 6-6 6-8 athletic freaks.

There was a much greater athletic disparity from Wilt to the worst NBA player than there is from the best NBA athlete today to the worst by a significant margin.

While you can't compare players across eras you can comparatively assess aspects of an era.

It's the same reason that bringing up Russell's rings is ridiculous. There were 8 teams and there was a massive discrepancy between the teams in the early NBA in terms of their financial power. There was no salary cap and the best teams have a lot more money to put into scouting and team ammenities.

It's the same reason I laugh when people think John Wooden was a better basketball coach than Pete Newell.

Good post in general. The NBA started in the mid 40's, and in its first 10-15 years it was a bit of a different sport, with set shots, funny 1 handers, running hooks, half-court offenses. It changed quickly starting around 1960 with Bill Russell's athleticism, Red Auerbach's emphasis on the fast break, and modern jump shooters like Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, and Sam Jones. In that timeframe, the Celtics won 11 titles in 13 years from 1957 to 1969, so naturally they were a big influence.

Cousy straddled those 2 worlds of pre & post 1960, so he's not the best example of a guy that would dominate today, but from the mid-60's on the NBA product looked like today's game (except for the recent 3-pt mania), and most of those starters were athletically gifted enough to compete today. What's changed more than the players is the coaching, and the areas of emphasis for developing players. Ballhandling is better and defenses are more sophisticated, but many of those players were good enough to quickly overcome those things if dropped into today's league.

[Mickey8]

He just named few legends from his era, I was expecting from him to name those basketball part timer's instead .

[Yeggo Poleggo]

JJ is right.

[Nate505]

Redick wasn’t talking about the 10% of players back then (Russell, Wilt) — it’s obvious that they were talented.

He’s referring to the guys who ACTUALLY WERE firemen & plumbers while playing in the league part-time — the “average” player per se.

Why is that hard for people to comprehend?

Imagine the stars of today & yesteryear going up against librarians on a nightly basis.

Where does this myth that these guys were playing part time came from? The average NBA salary when the league started was about $4500. That seems like peanuts now, but that was about $65k a year then, and back then the median price of a house was about $5000.

Why would these guys risk that career, which would have at least made them very solid middle class, to go work on pipes on their off days during the season? I can absolutely buy that they did these jobs during the off-season, but the idea that they weren't focused on their job full time doesn't jive with the financial realities of the time.

What's next, NBA players in 50 years going "pshaw, NBA players in the early 2000s sucked. They were podcasters and video gamers."

[Nate505]

I haven't read the whole thread but can someone reference me what Bob Cousy is responding to exactly? I don't really listen to Reddick......

Reddick said this about Bob Cousy:

"He was being guarded by plumbers and firemen"

Like, ok, it could even be true in a sense that then the average salary in the NBA was $15k a season in 1960 (about $150k today), so while they weren't poor by any means that some of them may have worked as plumbers and firemen in the off-season for a little extra money, I doubt that was their primary job and they played in the NBA on the side. Unless fireman and plumbers just made a ton of money back then.

Basketball was their main job. But:

-- There were real tough financial decisions between playing and something else. Cousy almost opened a driving school. Sam Jones almost became a teacher.
-- They had offseason jobs or whatever to make more money. Baseball players did too, at least into the 1960s. E.g., my father had Willie Crawford of the Dodgers reporting up to him in a retail store. Tom Heinsohn had an insurance "company" (I presume it was an agency, but that phrasing is rarely used).

Speaking of those names, Cousy founded the Players Association and Heinsohn got it recognized by the owners.

For sure. But the whole point of calling them plumbers and fireman was to disparage the competition he was playing against. Nobody would disparage CJ McCullom or Draymond Green by calling them podcasters. The only way that comment makes sense is if you really believed they were playing against guys whose secondary profession was basketball.

[KembaWalker]

LeBron James competed against coffee baristas


D3 scrubs


twitch streamers


venture capitalists


horse trainers


I think we need so start a conversation about the legitimacy of his achievements going against these part timers/bums

[Wolfgang630]

Draymond Green plays against podcasters like Duncan Robinson and JJ Reddick

[Clyde Frazier]

Redick's been great overall on TV but didn't agree with his comments re: cousy. People love to play the time machine game, but it's a complete hypothetical. There's no shame in what players accomplished against the players they actually faced. Cousy is still an all time great in that regard.