Top 3 Lakers Peaks?

[ceiling raiser]

The Lakers have one of the deepest fields of legends of the game.

In particular, some of the best player peaks in history occurred for the Lakers.

These don't have to be a player's peak btw. So for instance, if you think Wilt's 72 season is a top three peak, it would count here. Same with 2020 LeBron.

Who do you think the top three are?

[DonaldSanders]

Well LeBron is obviously not in. Not a knock on LeBron, it's just the Lakers have so many chips.

Wilt was past his prime with the Lakers, so I'll pass on him. Same for Kareem.

I think you give one to Magic (84-85), one to Shaq (2000), one to Kobe (2008-2009).

[JLei]

Well LeBron is obviously not in.

Wilt was past his prime with the Lakers, so I'll pass on him. Same for Kareem.

I think you give one to Magic (84-85), one to Shaq (2000), one to Kobe (2008-2009).

2020 Lebron is pretty **** good. 2nd MVP voting, Finals MVP. He's better than any version of Kobe.
Kareem won 2 MVPs with the Lakers and I've seen people put 77 as his peak season.

I'd probably go Shaq 2000, 87 Magic, 77 Kareem. Lebron on the borderline. Level he's close but the wonkiness of the season (64 win pace but do they hold? He dominated the bubble putting up peak numbers but it was the bubble) probably leaves him out vs Shaq, Magic and Kareem.

[Raps in 4]

1. Shaq
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Kobe/Lebron

[DonaldSanders]

Well LeBron is obviously not in.

Wilt was past his prime with the Lakers, so I'll pass on him. Same for Kareem.

I think you give one to Magic (84-85), one to Shaq (2000), one to Kobe (2008-2009).

2020 Lebron is pretty **** good. 2nd MVP voting, Finals MVP. He's better than any version of Kobe.
Kareem won 2 MVPs with the Lakers and I've seen people put 77 as his peak season.

I'd probably go Shaq 2000, 87 Magic, 77 Kareem. Lebron on the borderline. Level he's close but the wonkiness of the season (64 win pace but do they hold? He dominated the bubble putting up peak numbers but it was the bubble) probably leaves him out vs Shaq, Magic and Kareem.

I think your points are reasonable, I just slightly disagree. LeBron's help was more than Kobe's in 2008-9, AD was a *huge* beast that year, look up advanced stats on that playoff run vs. Pau. Of course I think peak LeBron is way above Kobe, I just think Kobe had less help on that 2nd run than LeBron did and LeBron was below his peak.

Leaving Kareem off any list is hard, I just would pick seasons with championships. If you sub out Kobe for the 79-80 chip I think that is entirely reasonable and I'm very close to talking myself into it as I type this

[Liam_Gallagher]

Read on Twitter

[Ni Da Ye]

Lebron's Disney ring was not even a legit championship.

Warned for derailing

[sigueina]

1. Shaq 2000 2. Magic 1987 3. Kobe 2006

[dhsilv2]

How the heck is Mikan not listed yet? He's the obvious first pick. Then it's shaq and magic.

[dhsilv2]

Read on Twitter

LMAO, I just did the math on how he got to that. He left their minutes the same! I know twitter is where humanity goes to die, but even by twitter standards that was horrible!

[ceiling raiser]

I feel like Shaq and Kareem are locks here for me. Third is a fight between a handful of other players, but it's clear who is and isn't in the debate.

[laronprofit9]

Well LeBron is obviously not in.

Wilt was past his prime with the Lakers, so I'll pass on him. Same for Kareem.

I think you give one to Magic (84-85), one to Shaq (2000), one to Kobe (2008-2009).

2020 Lebron is pretty **** good. 2nd MVP voting, Finals MVP. He's better than any version of Kobe.
Kareem won 2 MVPs with the Lakers and I've seen people put 77 as his peak season.

I'd probably go Shaq 2000, 87 Magic, 77 Kareem. Lebron on the borderline. Level he's close but the wonkiness of the season (64 win pace but do they hold? He dominated the bubble putting up peak numbers but it was the bubble) probably leaves him out vs Shaq, Magic and Kareem.

I don’t think it’s clear that 2020 Lebron is better than 2009 Kobe.

2009 Kobe 12.7 Win Shares
2020 Lebron 9.8 Win Shares

2009 Kobe .206 ws/48
2020 Lebron .204 ws/48

2009 Kobe 103 TS+
2020 Lebron 102 TS+

2009 Kobe 9.7% TOV
2020 Lebron 15.1% TOV

I mean there’s more data, but the two were fairly close. They both achieved the same thing too. 2nd in MVP and won finals MVP. Kobe played all 82 games which helps his case because of availability. Don’t see the clear case here and Pau didn’t have the type of production of AD. Kobe also played in a less friendly offensive environment at the time

[LukaTheGOAT]

1. 2000 Shaq-Top 3 Peak of all-time. Scored on more volume but less efficiency (relative to era) than Kareem. Him and Kareem are about the same level as defenders I think, but Shaq benefits from playing in the 3 point era. He led better offenses in part because when he would get double teamed, he could kick out to shooters to 3 pointers for extra points, while Kareem was forced to kick it out to shooters for only 2 points (no 3 point line).

2. 1977 Kareem- Top 5 peak ever. Top 3 scoring PS run of all-time. Great defensive anchor. He is lower to Shaq quite possibly due to playing in an era with no 3-point line, and therefore he didn't quite have the same spacing. Him and Shaq are very similar in review and he could go ahead of him.

3. 1987 Magic-Honestly, I’m not certain if he should be ahead of West, but Magic’s floor-raising exploits in 88 and 89 gave me more confidence putting Magic this high. Even as his offensive cast got older, Magic continued to churn out elite offenses, and his teams were able to get more separation from the pack in terms of relative offense compared to West.

4. 1966 Jerry West- Basically tied with Magic. Idk, felt the need to shout him out. Surprise to some, but simply just justice to me. There are multiple years you can pick from, but simply put, this is a top 6 scorer ever going to work at his peak. Think of him as Stephen Curry with all-nba level defense at his position, but without the 3 point line to bolster his volume and efficiency even more. The thing is, West still comes away to me looking as a better scorer. The real question for me, is just how valuable was his playmaking because since the game was much less spaced, there were less opportunities available to be created and therefore pinpointing is exact offensive value is a bit tricky. West was in an era not favorable for guards; if he comes around later. If he comes around later, West likely would’ve benefitted an peaked higher than 87 Magic. They are close nonetheless and it should also be noted that West is more portable than magic. West is one of the few superstars ever to IMPROVE their scoring in the PS per Backpicks GOAT: #17 Jerry West | Back Picks

[LukaTheGOAT]

Well LeBron is obviously not in.

Wilt was past his prime with the Lakers, so I'll pass on him. Same for Kareem.

I think you give one to Magic (84-85), one to Shaq (2000), one to Kobe (2008-2009).

2020 Lebron is pretty **** good. 2nd MVP voting, Finals MVP. He's better than any version of Kobe.
Kareem won 2 MVPs with the Lakers and I've seen people put 77 as his peak season.

I'd probably go Shaq 2000, 87 Magic, 77 Kareem. Lebron on the borderline. Level he's close but the wonkiness of the season (64 win pace but do they hold? He dominated the bubble putting up peak numbers but it was the bubble) probably leaves him out vs Shaq, Magic and Kareem.

I don’t think it’s clear that 2020 Lebron is better than 2009 Kobe.

2009 Kobe 12.7 Win Shares
2020 Lebron 9.8 Win Shares

2009 Kobe .206 ws/48
2020 Lebron .204 ws/48

2009 Kobe 103 TS+
2020 Lebron 102 TS+

2009 Kobe 9.7% TOV
2020 Lebron 15.1% TOV

I mean there’s more data, but the two were fairly close. They both achieved the same thing too. 2nd in MVP and won finals MVP. Kobe played all 82 games which helps his case because of availability. Don’t see the clear case here and Pau didn’t have the type of production of AD. Kobe also played in a less friendly offensive environment at the time

If you look at numbers that incorporate any plus-minus, it is suggestive that Lebron might have been better on a per-possession basis, although as you mentioned, Kobe played every game.

2020 Lebron

Backpicks BPM-6.8
PIPM-6.62 (RS and PS)
RAPTOR-7.1

2009 Kobe

Backpicks BPM-5
PIPM-4.83 (RS and PS)
RAPTOR-6.70


2020 Lebron in the PS

IA Pts/75 = Inflation-adjusted points per 75 possessions (adjusted to a 110-league average).

Inflation Adjusted 28 pts per 75 (rTS% of 9.2%). Lebron is estimated per Box Creation to have created about 14. shots per 100 possessions for teammates.

Backpicks BPM-9.37

RAPTOR-10.3

AuPM/G-6

PIPM-6.5

2009 Kobe in the PS

Inflation Adjusted 30 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3.6%). Kobe is estimated per Box Creation to have created about 10.3 shots per 100 possessions for teammates.

Backpicks BPM-7.5

RAPTOR-9.08

AuPM/G-5.6

PIPM-4.23

[The Laker Kid]

Wilt peaked 20,000 times during that era so that's my vote.

[MrGoat]

Magic, Shaq, and Kobe

With context West and Mikan are definitely in the equation too. Though Mikan played for Minnesota so I'm not sure whether he counts

[ardee]

2000 Shaq
1977 Kareem
1987 Magic

HM: 2008 Kobe

[LAL1947]

2020 Lebron is pretty **** good. 2nd MVP voting, Finals MVP. He's better than any version of Kobe.
Kareem won 2 MVPs with the Lakers and I've seen people put 77 as his peak season.

I'd probably go Shaq 2000, 87 Magic, 77 Kareem. Lebron on the borderline. Level he's close but the wonkiness of the season (64 win pace but do they hold? He dominated the bubble putting up peak numbers but it was the bubble) probably leaves him out vs Shaq, Magic and Kareem.

I don’t think it’s clear that 2020 Lebron is better than 2009 Kobe.

2009 Kobe 12.7 Win Shares
2020 Lebron 9.8 Win Shares

2009 Kobe .206 ws/48
2020 Lebron .204 ws/48

2009 Kobe 103 TS+
2020 Lebron 102 TS+

2009 Kobe 9.7% TOV
2020 Lebron 15.1% TOV

I mean there’s more data, but the two were fairly close. They both achieved the same thing too. 2nd in MVP and won finals MVP. Kobe played all 82 games which helps his case because of availability. Don’t see the clear case here and Pau didn’t have the type of production of AD. Kobe also played in a less friendly offensive environment at the time

If you look at numbers that incorporate any plus-minus, it is suggestive that Lebron might have been better on a per-possession basis, although as you mentioned, Kobe played every game.

2020 Lebron

Backpicks BPM-6.8
PIPM-6.62 (RS and PS)
RAPTOR-7.1

2009 Kobe

Backpicks BPM-5
PIPM-4.83 (RS and PS)
RAPTOR-6.70

How do these stats account for:

1) Quality of opposition.
2) Quality of roster. Apart from the AD-Pau example, here's another one... we had better 3-pt shooters in 2020... better dribblers/drivers to the rim... i.e., players with more "gravity".
3) For less vs more friendly offensive environment at the two times.

[dhsilv2]

I don’t think it’s clear that 2020 Lebron is better than 2009 Kobe.

2009 Kobe 12.7 Win Shares
2020 Lebron 9.8 Win Shares

2009 Kobe .206 ws/48
2020 Lebron .204 ws/48

2009 Kobe 103 TS+
2020 Lebron 102 TS+

2009 Kobe 9.7% TOV
2020 Lebron 15.1% TOV

I mean there’s more data, but the two were fairly close. They both achieved the same thing too. 2nd in MVP and won finals MVP. Kobe played all 82 games which helps his case because of availability. Don’t see the clear case here and Pau didn’t have the type of production of AD. Kobe also played in a less friendly offensive environment at the time

If you look at numbers that incorporate any plus-minus, it is suggestive that Lebron might have been better on a per-possession basis, although as you mentioned, Kobe played every game.

2020 Lebron

Backpicks BPM-6.8
PIPM-6.62 (RS and PS)
RAPTOR-7.1

2009 Kobe

Backpicks BPM-5
PIPM-4.83 (RS and PS)
RAPTOR-6.70

How do these stats account for:

1) Quality of opposition.
2) Quality of roster. Apart from the AD-Pau example, here's another one... we had better 3-pt shooters in 2020... better dribblers/drivers to the rim... i.e., players with more "gravity".
3) For less vs more friendly offensive environment at the two times.

1 - all stats assume league average is static. They are measuring how much better a player is than their peers in a season. I see no reason to separate 09 or 20 in terms of that...pandemic being a wild card there.

2 - You could argue about roster construction or optimized roles in said system. Quality of teammates wouldn't impact this outside of the extreme tails, not applicable here. Both guys however here are in their optimal volume scoring, high on ball roles. So no meaningful difference there.

3 - I was going to say this is accounted for, but more directly, that doesn't impact these metrics in the first place. Really weird question...

[70sFan]

My top 5:

1. 1977 Kareem
2. 2000 Shaq
3. 1952 Mikan
4. 1987 Magic
5. 1966 West

HM: 2008 Kobe, 2020 LeBron, 1972 Wilt