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He wasn't an efficient god like LeBron or MJ, but watching him play during his prime was something else. We know his numbers and advance stats aren't that remarkable but we know some who have superb advance stats but will always be unreliable in big moments (*scratches my BEARD).

What do you think about Kobe's greatness and his numbers? You think his not-so-great stats are deceiving people from his true value?

One example of this is Jimmy Butler in the 2022 playoffs, where he has way better PER, TS%, and BPM than 2009 Kobe who had a one helluva playoff run and won the title.

Efficiency came with reduced minutes and the elimination of all physical defense. Kobe existed when productivity was key.

SelfishPlayer wrote:Efficiency came with reduced minutes and the elimination of all physical defense. Kobe existed when productivity was key.

...and, Kobe Bryant consistently took difficult shots, to varying degrees.

I consider myself to be something of an expert on Kobe's career.

The guy clearly preferred playing the game on difficult. Kobe would go stretches of shooting 50%+ throughout his career when he was either REALLY hot, or he would scale down the degree of difficulty on his shots.

He ALWAYS reverted back to"up fake, up fake, up fake, up fake, fall away from 19 feet".

Kobe's efficiency wasn't low due to simply not being a good shooter. He took A LOT of long, contest shots.

This isn't even a controversial take:

In total, he was probably the greatest contested-shot maker in NBA history, serving up facials like a shot esthetician. His diverse offensive payload produced six of the top-75 scoring rates ever, and while his ability to make tough shots was jaw-dropping, his tendency to take these shots capped his efficiency. In a 2007 ABC telecast, Tim Legler marveled, “Kobe has the highest degree of difficulty shots in the NBA.”3 Which was not a good thing.

According to Synergy, Kobe dialed up an isolation play about one-third of the time from 2008-10, and nearly 40 percent of the time in 2006 and 2007, all ranking at the top of the league.4 Whereas someone like Michael Jordan used quickness to create clean looks, Bryant made a living by whispering shots in his defender’s ear, oblivious to the hand in his face.

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/01/backpicks-goat-14-kobe-bryant/

Kobe was 4 to 7 percent above average efficiency in his prime, which is around where Butler is. Except Kobe 30 ppg not 20.

He's an example of peoole discounting numbers when they don't say what they want them to say.
Kobe was a couple of tiers worse than jordon or LeGM, as the numbers suggest.

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BK_2020 wrote:Kobe was 4 to 7 percent above average efficiency in his prime, which is around where Butler is. Except Kobe 30 ppg not 20.

4-7 indexed to 100, not +4-7% in rTS%

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He had really good team around him. They STOLE pau Gasol and had great defensive pieces.

No, the stats, combined with watching his games tell the whole story.

He was a volume shooter with WOAT shot selection, that made tough shots at the GOAT level.

He stole 98 Jordan's game and made it the basis of his game. Which means taking an absurd volume of tough shots.

Kobe was efficient.

He wasn't AS efficient as most of the guys commonly listed above him. The stats tell that story in the most straightforward way.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:He's an example of peoole discounting numbers when they don't say what they want them to say.
Kobe was a couple of tiers worse than jordon or LeGM, as the numbers suggest.

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People are putting him in Jimmy Butler's tier which seems like an excessive overcorrection.

No, Kobe's value was in scoring, which is probably the most measurable part of the game. He was who he was, high volume guy with OK efficiency.

Stats capture Kobe absolutely perfectly! Kobe is the classic example of a player people want to rank higher because he was just awesome to watch play, but anyone paying attention knew he was a few tiers away from the true all time greats.

That said, Kobe's ability to create shots certainly made him valuable at the end of a shot clock.

CodeBreaker wrote:Was Kobe's Greatness an example of "Stats Don't Tell the Whole Story"?

It most certainly is one of the best examples, because stats ignore level of skill/talent and context about rosters (their shot creation ability, for example). Kobe did what he had to do with sub-par depth (not including Shaq, Pau and Odom, I mean the rest of the roster) for the most part of his career. He could score against any defender and any system... and he was a play-maker too. I feel he would've evolved differently from 2003 onwards, if the Lakers FO had done a better job of replenishing our squad's depth and if Shaq hadn't been so toxic. He's one of few players who consistently raised his game in the playoffs against any competition.

Ty1414 recently did a project on the PC Board, to find out "NBA Superstars Playoffs Production Based On Quality Of Opposition". The results might surprise you... as they show Kobe faced more "Elite" + "All-Time Great" teams in the playoffs than anyone else in the All-Time Top 10.

Kobe: 71.8% of total games
Jordan: 60.9% of total games
Curry: 53% of total games
Duncan: 50.2% of total games
Wilt: 46.2% of total games
Lebron: 43.6% of total games
Magic: 39.2% of total games
Bird: 37.2% of total games
Kareem: 27.1% of total games

Link

If you want another good example of stats not telling the full story, look at Hakeem's 1994-95 regular season stats.

WS: 10.7
VORP: 5.3
BPM: 5.4
ORtg: 110
DRtg: 100

They don't really tell what the man was capable of doing... which he then showed in the playoffs when beating MVP David Robinson's Spurs and Shaq's Magic. Stats do injustice to both Hakeem and Kobe IMHO.

BK_2020 wrote:

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:He's an example of peoole discounting numbers when they don't say what they want them to say.
Kobe was a couple of tiers worse than jordon or LeGM, as the numbers suggest.

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People are putting him in Jimmy Butler's tier which seems like an excessive overcorrection.

you're cherry picking random people when there's a world out there who thinks he's a goat candidate?
To me Kobe is in a tier with Dirk and Garnett, very far from jordon or LeGM.

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LAL1947 wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:Was Kobe's Greatness an example of "Stats Don't Tell the Whole Story"?

It most certainly is one of the best examples. Kobe did what he had to do with sub-par depth (not including Shaq, Pau and Odom... I'm talking about the rest of the roster) for the most part of his career. He was a scorer and a play-maker, both, who I feel would've evolved differently if the Lakers FO had done a better job of replenishing our squad's depth and if Shaq hadn't been so toxic.

If you want another good example, look at Hakeem's 1994-95 regular season stats.

WS: 10.7
VORP: 5.3
BPM: 5.4
ORtg: 110
DRtg: 100

They don't really tell what the man was capable of doing... and what he showed in the playoffs when he beat David Robinson's Spurs and Shaq's Magic.

Everyone has supbar depth if you don't include the other best players on the roster, I don't get that point.

Lakers were not a team with any concerning lack of talent in comparison to the average team of other stars, outside of those Kwame, Smush, etc years.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:

BK_2020 wrote:

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:He's an example of peoole discounting numbers when they don't say what they want them to say.
Kobe was a couple of tiers worse than jordon or LeGM, as the numbers suggest.

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People are putting him in Jimmy Butler's tier which seems like an excessive overcorrection.

you're cherry picking random people when there's a world out there who thinks he's a goat candidate?
To me Kobe is in a tier with Dirk and Garnett, very far from jordon or LeGM.

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Cherrypicking or responding to the OP of this thread, you decide.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:

BK_2020 wrote:

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:He's an example of peoole discounting numbers when they don't say what they want them to say.
Kobe was a couple of tiers worse than jordon or LeGM, as the numbers suggest.

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

People are putting him in Jimmy Butler's tier which seems like an excessive overcorrection.

you're cherry picking random people when there's a world out there who thinks he's a goat candidate?
To me Kobe is in a tier with Dirk and Garnett, very far from jordon or LeGM.

In 2005-06 alone, Kobe had more 40+ point games than Dirk had in his whole career... and since Dirk was primarily a scorer (not a play-maker and not impactful on defense)... I'm not sure how anyone could put Dirk in Kobe's category/tier as a player overall... but you do you. Maybe if he was as good as Kobe, then Dallas could have won more titles than that one they finally got in 2010-11... and wouldn't have been swept 0-4 as a #1 seed by the 8th seed.

Also, I'm not hating on Dirk here... you're just forcing me to point these things out with what you're saying. Dirk's greatness had an individual limit... Kobe was like Mike, limitless.

SuperPawgHunter wrote:

SelfishPlayer wrote:Efficiency came with reduced minutes and the elimination of all physical defense. Kobe existed when productivity was key.

...and, Kobe Bryant consistently took difficult shots, to varying degrees.

I consider myself to be something of an expert on Kobe's career.

The guy clearly preferred playing the game on difficult. Kobe would go stretches of shooting 50%+ throughout his career when he was either REALLY hot, or he would scale down the degree of difficulty on his shots.

He ALWAYS reverted back to"up fake, up fake, up fake, up fake, fall away from 19 feet".

Kobe's efficiency wasn't low due to simply not being a good shooter. He took A LOT of long, contest shots.

This isn't even a controversial take:

In total, he was probably the greatest contested-shot maker in NBA history, serving up facials like a shot esthetician. His diverse offensive payload produced six of the top-75 scoring rates ever, and while his ability to make tough shots was jaw-dropping, his tendency to take these shots capped his efficiency. In a 2007 ABC telecast, Tim Legler marveled, “Kobe has the highest degree of difficulty shots in the NBA.”3 Which was not a good thing.

According to Synergy, Kobe dialed up an isolation play about one-third of the time from 2008-10, and nearly 40 percent of the time in 2006 and 2007, all ranking at the top of the league.4 Whereas someone like Michael Jordan used quickness to create clean looks, Bryant made a living by whispering shots in his defender’s ear, oblivious to the hand in his face.

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/01/backpicks-goat-14-kobe-bryant/

This. But even great players trusted his contested shots more than their own high IQ basketball plays as evidenced when team USA played against Spain in 08. Even coach K said that everyone else was comfortable being an elite defender while Kobe handled business in the clutch.

I remember in an interview Shumpert was talking about how Melo understood that his teammates were open on his contested shots, but he simply refused to pass. I'm not putting Melo and Kobe in the same tier, but I truly believe Kobe could have been way more efficient and racked up more assists if he wanted to, but he also simply preferred taking those super tough shots.

Imho when you value a player you have to relate his stats to the era when he played. The NBA from post Jordan till Heatles was configured MOSTLY with several teams playing low-efficiency high volume perimeter scorers ( Iverson, Arenas, McGrady, Vince Carter, Marbury, Michael Redd, Steve Francis, Jason Richardson and more and more), Power Forwards playing with their back to the basket and Big Men totally uncapable of scoring outside the post (for the most part). Kobe was elite between his peers, efficiency became a prominent matter when he was already past his prime.

Kobe’s numbers are still pretty damn great. He has the production of other ATG perimeter players like Wade, Durant & Kawhi, just not the efficiency.