RealGM

Thinking Basketball always provides quality content.

The talks about the evolution of traveling, carrying, initiating contact, flopping, screens etc.

Rule change. Partly to make the game be more entertaining and partly for parity. The rule change helps more players (specially those who are not gifted in size and athleticism) to be stars.

This is excellent video for anyone not familiar with oldschool basketball. It's shocking how much officiating changed throughout the years. Many people don't believe me when I say this, I hope this video will help them understanding it better.

You know there’s something seriously wrong with the nba when the Fred VanVleets and Dillon Brooks of the NBA can average 20 ppg.

ocelot17 wrote:You know there’s something seriously wrong with the nba when the Fred VanVleets and Dillon Brooks of the NBA can average 20 ppg.

I don't think it's a matter of the NBA having something wrong with it, but it's definitely something to be acknowledged when people want to compare straight PPG and assist totals to guys of like the early 2000's when the game was a complete slog and scoring was way depressed....

Great video as usual -- Thinking Basketball is the best content around. Ben has a great podcast as well.

What I always notice looking at older games is that the defender has a right to space, I yell at the TV in modern games more than anything "What was he supposed to do??!" when defenders get jumped into and called for a foul.

I like most of the rule changes, but I think defenders need to be entitled to their position more.

Really informative vid

You often hear people asserting that modern players are just smarter/better at drawing fouls and more creative/talented ballhandlers than previous generations, which may or may not be true, but what's unequivocally true is that they're playing under a different ruleset and it's never been easier to draw fouls or handle the basketball. The things you see offensive players doing today simply weren't options for their predecessors

Also the note about pre-1970 put-backs off missed FTs being credited as one point to the FT shooter got me thinking that Wilt's scoring numbers might've actually been a bit deflated. And perhaps Bill Russell's scoring ability would be perceived on paper today as more passable or even good if he was credited for a few extra made FGs per game

evilpimp972 wrote:B-b-b-but defense is more sophisticated!

Defensive schemes can be more sophisticated AND rule changes have been made to allow offensive players more freedom.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:Really informative vid

You often hear people asserting that modern players are just smarter/better at drawing fouls and more creative/talented ballhandlers than previous generations, which may or may not be true, but what's unequivocally true is that they're playing under a different ruleset and it's never been easier to draw fouls or handle the basketball. The things you see offensive players doing today simply weren't options for their predecessors

Also the note about pre-1970 put-backs off missed FTs being credited as one point to the FT shooter got me thinking that Wilt's scoring numbers might've actually been a bit deflated. And perhaps Bill Russell's scoring ability would be perceived on paper today as more passable or even good if he was credited for a few extra made FGs per game

But those put backs were credited to the free throw shooter....so that would likely have HELPED wilt more than hurt him, no?

I enjoyed the video as most of his work, and hell he had thousands of posts here on this very forum. That said the thing that stood out to me was so much more how insanely physical the game got and how even today by historical standards, the game looks truly nothing like the product was intended in terms of physicality. Offensive and defensiveness players get away with murder by historic standards. And to be fair as a fan, at times I want to see skill shine but I also rather like the "feel" of watching physical play and knowing it's in part because the players care.

ocelot17 wrote:You know there’s something seriously wrong with the nba when the Fred VanVleets and Dillon Brooks of the NBA can average 20 ppg.

Only guys like Jeff Mullins should be 20 point per game guy!

dhsilv2 wrote:

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:Really informative vid

You often hear people asserting that modern players are just smarter/better at drawing fouls and more creative/talented ballhandlers than previous generations, which may or may not be true, but what's unequivocally true is that they're playing under a different ruleset and it's never been easier to draw fouls or handle the basketball. The things you see offensive players doing today simply weren't options for their predecessors

Also the note about pre-1970 put-backs off missed FTs being credited as one point to the FT shooter got me thinking that Wilt's scoring numbers might've actually been a bit deflated. And perhaps Bill Russell's scoring ability would be perceived on paper today as more passable or even good if he was credited for a few extra made FGs per game

But those put backs were credited to the free throw shooter....so that would likely have HELPED wilt more than hurt him, no?

Very good point. So Wilt's FT% was definitely inflated

But I still think his overall scoring and efficiency might've been deflated. Consider his 50 ppg season in '62 when he averaged 6.6 missed FTs per game. Suppose a third of his FT misses (a pretty generous guesstimation given Wilt was the only Warriors rotation player taller than 6'6") were converted as put-backs, that's an extra 2.2 ppg for Wilt. His teammates missed 6.0 FTs per game, so if the greatest physical force in NBA history was simply able to match the put-back rate of his 6'6" and under teammates then that's an extra 4.0 ppg to Wilt for a net of +1.8 without the weird rule

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:Really informative vid

You often hear people asserting that modern players are just smarter/better at drawing fouls and more creative/talented ballhandlers than previous generations, which may or may not be true, but what's unequivocally true is that they're playing under a different ruleset and it's never been easier to draw fouls or handle the basketball. The things you see offensive players doing today simply weren't options for their predecessors

Also the note about pre-1970 put-backs off missed FTs being credited as one point to the FT shooter got me thinking that Wilt's scoring numbers might've actually been a bit deflated. And perhaps Bill Russell's scoring ability would be perceived on paper today as more passable or even good if he was credited for a few extra made FGs per game

But those put backs were credited to the free throw shooter....so that would likely have HELPED wilt more than hurt him, no?

Very good point. So Wilt's FT% was definitely inflated

But I still think his overall scoring and efficiency might've been deflated. Consider his 50 ppg season in '62 when he averaged 6.6 missed FTs per game. Suppose a third of his FT misses (a pretty generous estimation given Wilt was the only Warriors rotation player taller than 6'6") were converted as put-backs, that's an extra 2.2 ppg for Wilt. His teammates missed 6.0 FTs per game, so if the greatest physical force in NBA history was simply able to match the put-back rate of his 6'6" and under teammates then that's an extra 4.0 ppg for Wilt for a net of +1.8 without the weird rule

Yeah, the world may never know!

If those plumbers and accountants were allowed to eurostep and palm and triple dribble and push with their off-dribbling arm, we'd have far fewer inane player-comparison posts on RealGM. And Wilt would've averaged 50 for his career.

dhsilv2 wrote:

ocelot17 wrote:You know there’s something seriously wrong with the nba when the Fred VanVleets and Dillon Brooks of the NBA can average 20 ppg.

Only guys like Jeff Mullins should be 20 point per game guy!

Bad example, Mullin was bigger and more athletic than Fred

70sFan wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

ocelot17 wrote:You know there’s something seriously wrong with the nba when the Fred VanVleets and Dillon Brooks of the NBA can average 20 ppg.

Only guys like Jeff Mullins should be 20 point per game guy!

Bad example, Mullin was bigger and more athletic than Fred

Dillon Brookers is 6'7...and Fred is strong as hell (and strength is the most important aspect of being athletic despite the weird obsession with running and jumping).

DonaldSanders wrote:Great video as usual -- Thinking Basketball is the best content around. Ben has a great podcast as well.

What I always notice looking at older games is that the defender has a right to space, I yell at the TV in modern games more than anything "What was he supposed to do??!" when defenders get jumped into and called for a foul.

I like most of the rule changes, but I think defenders need to be entitled to their position more.

In the 60's and 70's, everyone had a right to space, hence why many people look back and say there was no physicality, yes, they are right, it was a less physical game but both sides were allowed to have their room. Post players weren't getting pushed and wrestled while trying to get position, but they also couldn't push people around like ragdolls.

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:Really informative vid

You often hear people asserting that modern players are just smarter/better at drawing fouls and more creative/talented ballhandlers than previous generations, which may or may not be true, but what's unequivocally true is that they're playing under a different ruleset and it's never been easier to draw fouls or handle the basketball. The things you see offensive players doing today simply weren't options for their predecessors

Also the note about pre-1970 put-backs off missed FTs being credited as one point to the FT shooter got me thinking that Wilt's scoring numbers might've actually been a bit deflated. And perhaps Bill Russell's scoring ability would be perceived on paper today as more passable or even good if he was credited for a few extra made FGs per game

But those put backs were credited to the free throw shooter....so that would likely have HELPED wilt more than hurt him, no?

Very good point. So Wilt's FT% was definitely inflated

But I still think his overall scoring and efficiency might've been deflated. Consider his 50 ppg season in '62 when he averaged 6.6 missed FTs per game. Suppose a third of his FT misses (a pretty generous guesstimation given Wilt was the only Warriors rotation player taller than 6'6") were converted as put-backs, that's an extra 2.2 ppg for Wilt. His teammates missed 6.0 FTs per game, so if the greatest physical force in NBA history was simply able to match the put-back rate of his 6'6" and under teammates then that's an extra 4.0 ppg to Wilt for a net of +1.8 without the weird rule

3 to make 2 in the bonus and put backs being credited to the shooter definitely help the FT shooter, but some rules were definitely weird, others have become too lax. Ball handling was too strict in the 60's but is too loose now, same with traveling. Screens have become a whole mess. Travelling was too rigid but has also become too lax in some areas. There should be more no calls on what are called defensive fouls.

The foul calling of the 60's and 70's was very generous in a different way. Now players have tactics for drawing fouls, but based on 60's and 70's definitions have already fouled each other 10 times before a foul is called.

dhsilv2 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
Only guys like Jeff Mullins should be 20 point per game guy!

Bad example, Mullin was bigger and more athletic than Fred

Dillon Brookers is 6'7...and Fred is strong as hell (and strength is the most important aspect of being athletic despite the weird obsession with running and jumping).

I know that Dillion is big, but I don't get your point about Mullins, who was both athletic and skilled.