Has Havlicek's career been minimized to give Russell's a boost?

WarriorGM · Post #1 » by **WarriorGM** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:37 am

John Havlicek had an impressive NBA career. But in discussions about the greatest NBA players he's seldom mentioned. It doesn't make sense.

He played with Russell and as with all Russell's teammates they kind of get mixed up into one amorphous blob in popular discussions about the 1960s Celtics but Havlicek also had significant accomplishments after Russell retired. Many people making lists rank Havlicek near Scottie Pippen, but Havlicek's accomplishments I think call more for a Shaq-Kobe or Kareem-Magic comparison. Unlike Pippen, Havlicek went on to win two more championships absent his top 10 all-time teammate. That's the same number Kobe won after his days with Shaq and two more than Magic ever won without Kareem. Why then are people ignoring Havlicek?

HollowEarth · Post #2 » by **HollowEarth** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:11 am

This is a valid discussion but the wrong time.

Infinite Llamas · Post #3 » by **Infinite Llamas** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:19 am

His 6114 to 204 AST/TO ratio is pretty insane :wink:

Sark · Post #4 » by **Sark** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:45 am

HollowEarth wrote:This is a valid discussion but the wrong time.

What's a better time for this than the off season?

MaxZaslofskyJr · Post #5 » by **MaxZaslofskyJr** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:43 am

Many of Russell's team-mates' careers have been minimized.

babyjax13 · Post #6 » by **babyjax13** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:44 am

Sark wrote:
HollowEarth wrote:This is a valid discussion but the wrong time.

What's a better time for this than the off season?

Russell died less than a month ago.

Tim Kempton · Post #7 » by **Tim Kempton** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:46 am

Excellent thread, OP. Hondo was, with all due respect, a better player than the likes of Heinsohn, KC Jones, Bill Sharman, Sam Jones, and the bevy of other great players Russell played with.

Accomplishments:
8x champion
13x All-Star
11x All-NBA (4x 1st team, 7x 2nd team)
8x All-Defense (5x 1st team, 3x 2nd team)
7x Top 10 MVP vote getter
1x Finals MVP (1974)
Top 20 in points scored (26,395)
Missed just 33 games in 16 seasons

Oh, and he did this while coming off the bench as a 6th man for his first 5 (I think?) seasons and his final season. Absolutely insane. He is definitely worthy of being ranked in the top 15-20. Anything lower is an insult.

KenoP13 · Post #8 » by **KenoP13** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:47 am

babyjax13 wrote:
Sark wrote:
HollowEarth wrote:This is a valid discussion but the wrong time.

What's a better time for this than the off season?
Russell died less than a month ago.

So, how is it insulting? I don't see anyone debating whether he was a good person..

falcolombardi · Post #9 » by **falcolombardi** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:56 am

babyjax13 · Post #10 » by **babyjax13** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:56 am

KenoP13 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
Sark wrote:

What's a better time for this than the off season?
Russell died less than a month ago.

So, how is it insulting? I don't see anyone debating whether he was a good person..

I mean, seems like bad timing. And does Havlicek's career need to be 'minimized' for the sake of Russell? Maybe people haven't remembered enough, but that wasn't to "give Russell a boost." Was Scotty Pippen minimized to give Jordan a boost, or was Jordan just so **** good that nothing Pippen could have done would have him looking like anything but a robin? Russell is a 5x MVP, 12x All-star, 11x Champion. Havlicek is a 0x MVP, 13x All-star, 8x champion. Sorry, one is not like the other, and it's Havlicek. Sucks to be on a team with someone transcendent if you want to have a legacy of anything but a robin.

KenoP13 · Post #11 » by **KenoP13** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:06 am

babyjax13 wrote:
KenoP13 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:Russell died less than a month ago.

So, how is it insulting? I don't see anyone debating whether he was a good person..

I mean, seems like bad timing. And does Havlicek's career need to be 'minimized' for the sake of Russell? Maybe people haven't remembered enough, but that wasn't to "give Russell a boost." Was Scotty Pippen minimized to give Jordan a boost, or was Jordan just so **** good that nothing Pippen could have done would have him looking like anything but a robin? Russell is a 5x MVP, 12x All-star, 11x Champion. Havlicek is a 0x MVP, 13x All-star, 8x champion. Sorry, one is not like the other, and it's Havlicek. Sucks to be on a team with someone transcendent if you want to have a legacy of anything but a robin.

I would look at the word "minimized" more in the form of how the media tells the story of Russel's legacy. He is deservedly one of the best players to play the game of basketball.. And, I don't think his impact is any less significant by insinuating Havlicek's successes could have been overshadowed. For the record.. I don't agree with the premise.. I just think it is an interesting topic of discussion.

The topic of Pippen's career being minimized is hot right now. And, I think rightfully so.. He was an instrumental part of their championship successes.. On the same topic of Jordan's legacy. Plenty of ardent supporters of his "greatest of all time" tittle very much minimize Pippen's impact. They also conveniently forget Jordan lost in the year he came back after retiring. They also forget the East was pretty weak for a couple of years during their 6 championship run.

As for the timing.. I mean what is the right length of time to wait before talking about a pretty general topic. Which in no way insults his characters or his basketball legacy. I don't get this mantra.. When someone dies the only thing you can ever say in reference to their name is "brave hero and greatest"

70sFan · Post #12 » by **70sFan** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:59 am

I do think Hondo is underrated in all-time discussions, but it has nothing to do with giving Russell a boost. He's from the less known era, people don't care about pre-merger players outside of Wilt/Russell/Oscar/West.

Russell doesn't need any rhetorical manipulations from his fans, his career speaks for itself. You won't succeed in dowgrading Russell for making Curry look better.

Sark · Post #13 » by **Sark** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:06 am

babyjax13 wrote:
Sark wrote:
HollowEarth wrote:This is a valid discussion but the wrong time.

What's a better time for this than the off season?
Russell died less than a month ago.

This feels more like a pro-Havlicek thread, than an anti-Russell one.

WillyJakkz · Post #14 » by **WillyJakkz** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:09 am

Has refers to continue to be, was refers to past.

Thread title is disrespectful as the word boost implies you don't feel Russell was deserving of the adulation he got.

I don't think anyone in the present cares to downplay his career to big up Bill Russell when a bevy of broadcasters currently bring him up in a positive way and he was always praised in the past for his accomplishments.

Havlicek steals the ball could arguably be the most well known call in NBA History which brought awareness to him as a player and his legacy. Russell doesn't have an infamous call just the recollection of him crying in the locker room after winning the Title.

Russell is more known/ praised because well let's face it he had to guard a behemoth of a man in Wilt Chamberlain. So I think the guy who guarded Wilt is gonna get more praise.

Post #15 » by **HomoSapien** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:18 am

I think Havlicek in general is really underrated and overlooked by modern fans.

As a side note, here's a video of a 36-year-old John Havlicek holding a 26-year-old Julius Erving to 6-19 shooting in game 7 of the NBA finals. Havlicek himself had a poor offensive game, but I thought the defensive highlights were interesting. Erving had the athleticism, size, and length to easily be elite in today's era. Over the years, it's been argued perpetually that players from Havlicek's era's wouldn't be able to hang athletically with today's players, but Hondo seems to bring doubt to that theory.

Watch on YouTube

Here's another highlight reel of his. He's just such a fun player to watch.

Watch on YouTube

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #16 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:17 am

There's no conspiracy, of course.
The real question is, where would you put Hondo in an all time list?
Is 25-30 ok?

JN61 · Post #17 » by **JN61** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:26 am

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:There's no conspiracy, of course.
The real question is, where would you put Hondo in an all time list?
Is 25-30 ok?

How do people rate Curry far higher then with significantly lower career achievements?

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #18 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:29 am

JN61 wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:There's no conspiracy, of course.
The real question is, where would you put Hondo in an all time list?
Is 25-30 ok?

How do people rate Curry far higher then with significantly lower career achievements?

Significantly lower? Seriously?

celtics543 · Post #19 » by **celtics543** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:58 am

Hondo is definitely underrated but I don't think it's on purpose to give Russell a boost. I think Havlicek gets underrated because he played in the 60's and 70's where a lot of guys are underrated and he didn't have a huge personality.

Just from a Celtics history point of view he has the most points scored of anyone in the history of the franchise. Not Pierce, Bird, McHale, Russell, Jones, or anyone else. It's Hondo. He also played superhuman minutes and could fill any role on any team he was on. Guy is a bonafide legend that never gets talked about. I'd throw Cowens into that conversation as well.

Those guys who dominated the 70's tend to get overlooked because the ABA was more exciting. Hondo, Cowens, Willis, Frazier, Walton, Hayes, Unseld etc all get underrated.

Post #20 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:40 am

Havlicek was really good, but let's not forget that he was playing under 30 mpg for a large chunk of his time with Russell. They literally created the 6th Man of the Year award for him. Yeah, the last couple seasons, he started to break out some more with starter's minutes, but I don't think there is any diminishment of Hondo to elevate Russell. He was a legit player, but he filled a role for the Celtics, and then proved out when he and Cowens were heading the team after Russell retired.