Why is Luka seen universally as a top 2 or 3 player in the world, when James Harden in his prime was not?

[NBA4Lyfe]

As a fan of harden, the luka lovefest in nba circles is confusing the hell outta me. Luka plays exactly like houston james harden, they even run the same offense( moreyball). The Lebron comps to Luka by the nba media are misguided and lazy and are just there to try and boost LeBrons image among younger fans. In reality LeBrons current comp in the league in Giannis or Zion( if he reaches his potential). Why are people so afraid of saying Giannis is the new Lebron. Luka will never be the athlete that Lebron is. Luka like James Harden uses deceleration, not athletic ability to get by their opponents and finish at the rim, or to create space on their stepback threes

My thing is how can you hate Harden, but then proclaim Luka as a top 3 guy in the world, When one could make the case Luka has yet to peak higher than houston rockets james harden. Also their is bias when it comes to harden from the nba media, they actively look for ways to not vote him all-nba so that stephen curry will go down in history with more all nba selections than his draft mate harden. It doesnt matter what harden does this year, he could average 27/7/10 on 61% true shooting and he will not make 1st team all-nba. The league is trying to get stephen curry with as many first team selections as james harden. Harden was robbed out of an all nba selection in 2016, 2021 and this past year as well

Pat Bev was right 22/8/10 on 58% true shooting is max contract status. We watched zack lavine and bradley beal get paid and they have never had great advanced numbers. So until this bias againist Harden stops, you might as well treat the NBA like a 2nd tier american sport because its closer to pro wrestling when it comes to phrases like storylines, and narratives to pick and choose who wins what

Luka Doncic is overrated, he plays houston harden ball but isnt as good as harden. So make it make sense to me, how is luka seen as a top 3 player in the world. When nobody ever considered harden a top 5 player in his prime, even when video games like 2k would rate harden as the best player in the game. ESPN and FS1 would always rate him outside the top 5 or 6
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Here were this past seasons nba favorites for mvp according to basketball reference. This model takes into account how the mvp has been voting on historically and somehow a "washed up" james harden found his way in the top 10

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

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Then their are catch all stats that show harden was underrated in 2022 as they rated harden as a top 5 box creator in the league this past season.

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Most double teamed players according to advanced tracking. Why is this "washed player" drawing double teams at this high of a rate

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Also just keep in mind, my beef isnt with Luka Doncic( who i think is a terrific player) its for the bias fans and media members who overlook superior talent, because they dont like how that person plays the game. Its like criticizing Lamar Jackson who is a great nfl qb because people say his style of play will never lead to a ring. Unlike with the nfl tho, their media writers are much more authentic than nba media voters and are not bias.

Stop the shaming of James Harden on basketball forums, harden according to his basketball reference page similarity comps is seen as lock to finish as a top 20 player ever, but it makes more money to make harden the villain and write clickbait stories about him. Because deep down they know harden is a more complete basketball player than stephen curry. Higher career vorp, higher career box plus minus, higher career win shares( despite harden starting his first 3 years as a sixth man) and a higher career win shares per 48. Harden also has 11 of the best statistically best played games ever according to game score( which tracks the top 100 most dominant games by players in nba history.) Harden makes up 11% of the list, i think only michael jordan appears on the list more.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/game_score.html
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Its time we looked at the numbers and stats instead of how a person plays the game when ranking players all-time. Every major stat that i have tracked has harden as an elite player and in his prime he was better than KD, Curry and Lebron according to 538 raptor during the 2018, 2019 and 2020 season. James Harden posted 3 consecutive 30 PER seasons. The only guard to do that in history was michael jordan

Also harden in houston averaged 29/8/7 on 58% true shooting in the playoffs. the only reason why hardens career playoff number are lower than currys is because harden his first 3 season was seeing maybe 26 minutes a night in okc and its dragging his averages down( compare curry and harden in the playoffs as starters). While curry started in the playoffs from day 1 as a starter. Nobody ever uses context when judging hardens career up until point and it needs to stop

[cam24thomas]

You can't be top 3 in the world if you play your worst basketball in the playoffs

[Johnny Firpo]

I never thought they are that similar to be honest. To me, Luka's playing style is much closer to LeBron's than Harden's. It's the court vision that separates the two from Harden on the offensive end. And I'm not even talking about assist numbers here, but rather playstyle, vision. To me LeBron and Luka are much more enjoyable due to this factor, they are much more creative passers. Also, your whole premise is false. Luka is not seen universally as a top 2-3 player yet. Top 5, sure. Top 2-3, not yet. That's Jokic and Giannis.

[leolozon]

In what world was Harden never seen has a top2-3 NBA player, let alone top 5? He made 6 1st teams and he has a MVP (a lot of people think he should have Westbrook's MVP, including me).

The premise is simply wrong. A lot of people don't even see Luka as a top 3 player right now (Giannis, Jokic, Curry, Embiid, Durant...)

And I'm really tired of seeing people comparing Harden and Luka when they aren't that much alike.

Like it has been said, Doncic has also performed better in the playoffs so far. He is one of the rare stars with better efficiency and advanced stats in the playoffs.

[KGtabake]

Because he's a better player. Who has proven his worth at every stage.

[dirkdiggler4177]

I always said Harden was underrated and hated because of his style. With that said. Harden could do three things really well, drive and score, drive and dish, and pull up from three. He lacked the fundamentals of a true point guard. Luka can do all those things, not as good as prime Harden, but he orchestrates the offense in a more team-orientated way. Luka is also built more for the playoff with his ability to post up and shoot the mid-range. Harden never shot the mid-range (like literary, check his shooting chart) Come playoff time, the game changes, it slows down and you have to be able to score from the mid-range. That is also why Dirk was so successful, building a career around the least effective shot in basketball. Look at former finals MVPs, Curry, Pierce, Billups, Kawhi, Durant, (Wade?) all great mid-range shooters.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Neither of the two things you wrote is true.

[NBA4Lyfe]

You can't be top 3 in the world if you play your worst basketball in the playoffs
Doncic's FG% goes up in the playoffs, while Harden's goes down....

according to the nba cba, the nba playoffs are a "bonus tournament" and have no bearing on all-nba, mvp voting, or even all star selections. The nba regular season is where the owners get most of their revenue from. You know the escalators that increase a players earning potential. Kawhi Leonard could win finals mvp next year and it wont mean nothing when it comes to the length or value of his next contract. You dont get supermaxes for finals mvps. sorry buddy

What i do know is harden has been robbed of all-nba team selections on 3 seperate occassions. Meanwhile Curry can only play 64 games, and have a 2 month shooting slump during the season and he makes 2nd team all-nba. With worse box creation than a washed james harden. Its not making sense. Harden is being nerfed by the league and nba analysts because they wanna keep him below stephen curry.

Why else would they have bought and paid nba players on espn saying that harden doesnt deserve a supermax. Guys like stephen a smith talked down hardens potential contract ever since he arrived in philly, when harden actually qualified for a supermax because he made all nba first team within 2 years and was an all star. They made this man take less money than zach lavine and bradley beal because they hate the fact that they cant get in his head like they used to do with kevin durant and dwight howard. Harden marches to his own beat, he dont care what espn says at all. Harden was named shaqtin a fool mvp and almost had his earning potential and brand ruined by inside the nba, but what does harden do, did he whine on twitter nope. He played point guard for the first time in his career in 2017 and should have won mvp even after these same analyts said the mike dantoni and james harden marriage would not work. Now all of sudden mike danotni is the reason why hardens numbers were so high when harden made 2x 1st team all nba teams and another mvp runner up with kevin mchale coaching

[sixerguy]

You can't be top 3 in the world if you play your worst basketball in the playoffs
Doncic's FG% goes up in the playoffs, while Harden's goes down....

At some point your calculus most include intangible statistics like focus under pressure, degree of fear (chance of choking), wiliness to put everything out on the court, and not having a fear of failure (hot potato) in games that matter the most.

[lambchop]

Prime James Harden played during the same period as prime LBJ, peak Curry, prime KD. Very difficult to be considered better than those three at that point. If Luka had to go up against those guys at that point in their careers, no one but Skip Bayless would really consider him top 2 or 3. In addition, you also had dark horse Kawhi who was still good enough to dominate both sides of the court when healthy.

So imo it's not all about stats.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Because he's a better player. Who has proven his worth at every stage.

what has luka proven he is better than houston harden at

[NBA4Lyfe]

Prime James Harden played during the same period as prime LBJ, peak Curry, prime KD. Very difficult to be considered better than those three at that point. If Luka had to go up against those guys at that point in their careers, no one but Skip Bayless would really consider him top 2 or 3. In addition, you also had dark horse Kawhi who was still good enough to dominate both sides of the court when healthy.

So imo it's not all about stats.

538 raptor had harden as the best player in 2018,2019,and 2020.

[brutalitops]

What Universe was James Harden not a top 3 player in his prime?

[Mavrelous]

Harden has been top 5 player 2014-2020, he was 1st team all NBA all these years and MVP.
Luka came into the league as the best player in Europe at the age of 18, winner of ACB and Euroleague as best player on the team and Eurobasket as second best player when he was 17, he already had accolades Harden couldn't claim, he also was handed the keys to a franchise in his second year, Harden had to wait until his 4th year.
Harden's 1st 3 years in HOU are similar to Luka years 2-4 in DAL, 1st team all NBA, similar MVP shares and identical PO success.
Main reason it didn't feel this way is that he coincided with 2 top 15 player of all time in their prome (LeBron and Curry) and top 25 player in KD, Luka's rivals right now are Giannis and Jokic.

[KGtabake]

Because he's a better player. Who has proven his worth at every stage.

what has luka proven he is better than houston harden at

The guy won gold as leader of his country at the age of 18. Dominated every competition.
In the NBA his playoffs performances are better than anything harden has shown. Basically it's not a contest.

[lambchop]

Prime James Harden played during the same period as prime LBJ, peak Curry, prime KD. Very difficult to be considered better than those three at that point. If Luka had to go up against those guys at that point in their careers, no one but Skip Bayless would really consider him top 2 or 3. In addition, you also had dark horse Kawhi who was still good enough to dominate both sides of the court when healthy.

So imo it's not all about stats.

538 raptor had harden as the best player in 2018,2019,and 2020.

Like I said, advanced stats alone won't put you ahead of the three players I mentioned. Harden actually had his opportunity in game 7 of the WCF in 2018, but then he went 2 for 13 from deep and lost to the superior team without his best teammate in CP3. He's not a choke artist to me, but that really was his chance.

And, of course, in 2017 when he was 2nd in MVP voting behind triple double Russ, he ends up in the playoffs against the Spurs, gets his clutch three blocked by soon to be 40 year old Manu at the end of the game. Then in game 6 his team gets blown out by 40 points, he scores 10 points on 2 for 11 shooting, 6 turnovers to 7 assists and 6 fouls.

In round 1 of the 2018 POs he also had that 2 for 18 game against the Wolves. I won't hold that against him because his team still won despite him and they advanced to the next round anyway.

In 2019 he had his 3 for 20 game against the Jazz (team still won that playoff game despite him). And he played against the KD less dubs. Had excellent stats, but still couldn't get it done...

If you want to be considered better than prime KD, Curry, LBJ, you can't have those kind of performances every other year.

Doncic has had subpar games in the POs, but has yet to be truly atrocious. That said, no one is arguing Doncic over prime Curry, KD, LBJ yet.

[CharityStripe34]

I don't think it's a slight to say that Harden was a Top 4-5 player in the world for a five-year stretch.

[vulture]

Harden won an mvp and was runner up twice so I would say he was considered top 2/3 player for a stretch.

[JayMKE]

Luka isn’t universally seen as a top 2-3 player, the only guys that are universally seen that way are Giannis and Lebron with everybody else being a tier below.

[basketballRob]

Luka isn’t universally seen as a top 2-3 player, the only guys that are universally seen that way are Giannis and Lebron with everybody else being a tier below.

Hard to believe Giannis is 5 years older than Luka. Luka hasn't even hit his prime years yet.

Be rational and tell me who was better at 22.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=antetgi01&p1yrfrom=2017&player_id2=doncilu01&p2yrfrom=2022

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