RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#25 2022-23

[ElectricMayhem]

Once again, I am carrying the torch for Filthadelphia's annual Top 25 Player poll this offseason.

Your favorite offseason debate is back by popular demand!
Thanks to everyone who voted last go around I'm excited to see where the 5th annual edition ends up.

Here are the Rules:
-Vote ONE player per poll. You'll be able to change your vote just like in previous years so you can self-implement rank choice voting.
-The criteria of ranking the players is YOUR OWN. The whole point of bringing this to the GB is to attract the widest amount of votes/perspectives on the game as possible to form a true consensus. Some people value shooting over defense, team success over individual prowess etc. Filthadelphia wanted to bake all that into this poll set no matter how chaotic.
-Each poll a player will win and then be taken out of the field. There will be 25 polls in all.
-There are only 10 possible poll options so I will start with last year's Top 10.
-If a poll is overwhelmingly skewed towards one guy I will try, time willing, to edit it early and move on to the next one.
-If there is a tie in the poll. There will be a run-off poll created with just the tying parties to determine a winner. The losers of the runoff will then be added back into the field of 10 for the next poll.
-Feel free to ask any questions via pm or comment
-Feel Free to comment on your reasoning for a pick and why
There may be days when I am not able to quickly add the next poll. Just be patient!

THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE FOR PARTICIPATING!!!!

Winner of Previous Poll: Bam Adebayo (MIA)
Added to Poll: Jrue Holiday (MIL)

RealGM Top 25 Players 2022-23:
1) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 57%
2) Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 57%
3) Luka Doncic (DAL) - 43%
4) Steph Curry (GSW) - 49%
5) Joel Embiid (PHI) - 37%
6) Kevin Durant (BKN) - 40%
7) LeBron James (LAL) - 44%
8) Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 46%
9) Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 51%
10) Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 53%
11) Ja Morant (MEM) - 23%
12) Anthony Davis (LAL) - 28%
13) Rudy Gobert (MIN) - 24%
14) Paul George (LAC) - 19% (Tiebreaker: 62%)
15) James Harden (PHI) - 23%
16) Devin Booker (PHX) - 27%
17) Damian Lillard (POR) - 34%
18) Trae Young (ATL) - 25%
19) Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 33%
20) Pascal Siakam (TOR) - 40%
21) Jaylen Brown (BOS) - 30%
22) Chris Paul (PHX) - 25%
23) Zion Williamson (NOP) - 27%
24) Bam Adebayo (MIA) - 25%


Previous Results:

Spoiler:

RealGM Top 25 Players 2018-19:
1) LeBron James (LAL)-72%
2) Kevin Durant (GSW)-39%
3) Stephen Curry (GSW)-53%
4) Anthony Davis (NOP)-39%
5) James Harden (HOU)-45%
6) Kawhi Leonard (TOR)-50%
7) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL)-56%
8) Russell Westbrook (OKC)-47%
9) Chris Paul (HOU)-43%
10) Jimmy Butler (MIN)-33%
11) Joel Embiid (PHI)-37%
12) Nikola Jokic (DEN)-32%
13) Victor Oladipo (IND)-31%
14) Rudy Gobert (UTA)-62%-TIEBREAKER w Kyrie Irving (BOS)
15) Damian Lillard (POR)-32%
16) Kyrie Irving (BOS)-37%
17) Draymond Green (GSW)-31%
18) Paul George (OKC)-27%
19) Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN)-23%
20) Kyle Lowry (TOR)-31%
21) Klay Thompson (GSW)-30%
22) Ben Simmons (PHI)-35%
23) John Wall (WAS)-27%
24) Al Horford (BOS)-33%
25) LaMarcus Aldridge (SAS)-30%

RealGM Top 25 Players 2019-20:
1)Kawhi Leonard (LAC)-39%
2)Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL)-42%
3)LeBron James (LAL)-42%
4)Stephen Curry (GSW)-48%
5)James Harden (HOU)-40%
6)Anthony Davis (LAL)-39%
7)Nikola Jokic (DEN)-33%
8)Joel Embiid (PHI)-35%
9)Paul George (LAC)-46%
10)Damian Lillard (POR)-54%
11)Jimmy Butler (MIA)-30%
12)Russell Westbrook (HOU)-26%
13)Rudy Gobert (UTA)-23%
14)Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN)-28%
15)Draymond Green (GSW)-30%
16)Kyrie Irving (BKN)-37%
17)Blake Griffin (DET)-31%
18)Bradley Beal (WAS)-24%
19)Kemba Walker (BOS)-29%
20)Luka Doncic (DAL)-37%
21)Jrue Holiday (NOP)-22%
22)Ben Simmons (PHI)-30%
23)Pascal Siakam (TOR)-41%
24)Kyle Lowry (TOR)-46%
25)Chris Paul (OKC)-32%

RealGM Top 25 Players 2020-21:
1)LeBron James (LAL) - 53%
2)Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 47%
3)Luka Doncic (DAL) - 37%
4)Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 34%
5)Anthony Davis (LAL) - 35%
6)James Harden (HOU) - 39%
7)Steph Curry (GSW) - 33%
8)Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 42%
9)Kevin Durant (BKN) - 46%
10)Damian Lillard (POR) - 38%
11)Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 57%
12)Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 41%
13)Joel Embiid (PHI) - 59%
14)Devin Booker (PHX) - 22%
15)Chris Paul (PHX) - 24%
16)Paul George (LAC) - 21%
17)Bradley Beal (WAS) - 22%
18)Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 22%
19)Ben Simmons (PHI) - 26%
20)Kyle Lowry (TOR) - 28%
21)Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 26%
22)Bam Adebayo (MIA) - 24%
23)Jamal Murray (DEN) - 29%
24)Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 32%
25)Kyrie Irving (BKN) - 33%

RealGM Top 25 Players 2021-22:
1) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 41%
2) Kevin Durant (BKN) - 38%
3) LeBron James (LAL) - 36%
4) Luka Doncic (DAL) - 39%
5) Stephen Curry (GSW) - 42%
6) Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 61%
7) Joel Embiid (PHI) - 32%
8) James Harden (BKN) - 47%
9) Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 35%
10) Damian Lillard (POR) - 39%
11) Anthony Davis (LAL) - 60%
12) Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 32%
13) Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 34%
14) Paul George (LAC) - 33%
15) Trae Young (ATL) - 30%
16) Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 22%
17) Zion Williamson (NOP) - 27%
18) Chris Paul (PHX) - 26%
19) Kyrie Irving (BKN) - 29%
20) Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 24%
21) Devin Booker (PHX) - 28%
22) Bradley Beal (WAS) - 35%
23) Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 47%
24) Khris Middleton (MIL) - 45%
25) Jrue Holiday (MIL) 27%-

[ElectricMayhem]

Vote: Draymond Green. I just think Dray contributes to winning more than anyone else on the list. He is 1a or 1b best defender in the league. On the offensive side of the ball, his BBIQ just makes everything run smoother. He sets picks, gets everyone in the right position, and does everything he needs to do to put others into position to succeed. He is the league's best multiplier. Some people are discounting him for not being able to succeed surrounded by G-Leaguers that one year. Those critics don't understand what it is he brings to the table.

No more nominations, but I'll order the rest of the players on the poll just for the fun of it.
26) Jrue Holiday. Great two-way player. The numbers show him to have had a Top-10 impact last year.
27) SGA. Honestly, I haven't seen much of SGA play. He's been hidden on a small market ever-tanking team, sitting at the end of each of the last couple seasons. What a waste of a talent. With the Holmgren injury, are we destined for a repeat?
28) Darius Garland. He made a huge jump last year and he's surrounded by a great team. My biggest worry is whether there will be a struggle for the ball with Mitchell.
29) Anthony Edwards. He made a big jump last year and has all the potential in the world. I'd still like to see him become a bit more efficient.
30) Brandon Ingram. He almost seems forgotten. He's built himself into a solid player who can be the centerpiece of a team fighting for a playoff spot or a great sidekick/1b option.
31) Donovan Mitchell. He's a great scorer who has a knack for the moment. I feel like he should've made it work with Gobert and wonder if he has star ideations that will get in the way of team play. I hope not because Cleveland has the chance to be special.
32) DeMar DeRozan. He had a brilliant year last year. He's been consistently good throughout his career. I expect a slight dropoff but still a very good year.
33) Bradley Beal. There are still a handful of players not in this poll I'd select before Beal, but if he's healthy, he's one of the best pure scorers in the league.
34) Kyrie Irving. He definitely wouldn't be in my top 40, probably not top 50. He's definitely a brilliant individual talent. He's way more talented than a lot of the players ahead of him on the list. The thing is, when is the last time he's been a top 50 player in the league in terms of being a benefit to his team? Not with Brooklyn. Not with Boston. All of the sudden he's going to do it now? Looking at his track record, I just can't assume he's suddenly going to turn it on and maintain it. When he's playing, he does things that nobody else in the league can do, but how much does it actually elevate the team. It seems that his teams play just as well or better when he's injured. I just don't think he can maintain a passion for the game, focus, and team-oriented play for an entire season.

[BobbyPortisEyes]

**** it, I'm gonna be a voice for the voiceless Kyrie voters in the poll now.

No he's not reliable, no he's not rational.. but it's a contract year, he's a human being that wants money, and I think he fits extremely well on the Brooklyn Nets roster. He hasn't had a fit like this since he played with Lebron. Ben Simmons will get others involved, KD will be a model of consistency.. and Kyrie will be free to go on his scoring bursts with his often brilliant, often uneven play.

Of course it could also be a total disaster.. I don't think Kyrie will be the 25th best player in the league next season. He'll either be significantly higher or significantly lower.

[cupcakesnake]

I voted Shai. I have a really hard time separating most of the remaining guys. I think Edwards and Garland are the most likely to take a big leap this season. Holiday and Draymond are tempting choices.

Please stop voting for Kyrie. Can we let him prove he is interested in trying to play a full season of ball before we say he's better than the other guys on this list. Even at his best he's a little 1-dimensional. Exceptional shooter and ball handler for sure but a very enigmatic presence on a team.

[longtallbrad]

It's a respectful tip of the hat to Holiday for me. I expect him to play hard and smart this season. He's been just about exactly what the Giannis Bucks needed. Not a sensational talent but a high-quality two-way glue guy.

[SA37]

I voted Shai. I have a really hard time separating most of the remaining guys. I think Edwards and Garland are the most likely to take a big leap this season. Holiday and Draymond are tempting choices.

Please stop voting for Kyrie. Can we let him prove he is interested in trying to play a full season of ball before we say he's better than the other guys on this list. Even at his best he's a little 1-dimensional. Exceptional shooter and ball handler for sure but a very enigmatic presence on a team.

If this were a poll where you had to take into consideration contracts, off-court stuff, team fit, age...etc, you'd have a very different order. For example, Kawhi hasn't played anywhere close to a full season of basketball in 3 years, continues to take unilateral decisions about when and how much he'll be available to the team, and nothing seems to indicate this is going to change. It hasn't stopped anyone from voting him in front of guys like Tatum or Butler.

I think this poll is meant just from a basketball standpoint and Kyrie is absolutely a top-15 basketball player. Him being an unreliable basket case doesn't change that for the purposes of this poll, imo. From a real-world basketball standpoint, any organization looking to sign Kyrie as a FA will need to have all sorts of clauses and options built in to the contract to give a team all sorts of off-ramps to be able to cut him out if needed. Personally, I wouldn't offer him anything beyond a 1+1 deal with the 2nd year being a team option. And that is assuming I were running a championship calibre team with vets that could potentially keep Kyrie onside, like the Lakers, Golden State, Milwaukee, or Philadelphia.

Draymond as a top-25 player is a joke. The year he played without Thompson and Curry was one of the absolute worst of his career. He averaged something like 8-6-6 on 38fg% 28 3pt%. He's great at what he does, but like with Gobert, you need AT LEAST 2 players who are perennial all-stars for them to worthwhile, which makes the AT-BEST the 3rd wheel on a good team. The same goes for Jrue Holiday.

This is why looking at nonsense like RAPTOR scores and all these metrics is a waste of time; you need the context in which these guys play to really understand their worth. The same applies to guys like Kyrie, Leonard, James Harden, or Westbrook.

[HumbleRen]

I'm not the biggest fan of Demar and I know his playoff woes really ruin his rep but if you were to ask me who can be a legitimate first option to lead us to a 50 win season on this list, it's only Mitchell and Demar on this list that I can trust.

I'm personally going with Mitchell but it's going to be a crime if he doesn't finish top 3 in this poll.

[cupcakesnake]

I voted Shai. I have a really hard time separating most of the remaining guys. I think Edwards and Garland are the most likely to take a big leap this season. Holiday and Draymond are tempting choices.

Please stop voting for Kyrie. Can we let him prove he is interested in trying to play a full season of ball before we say he's better than the other guys on this list. Even at his best he's a little 1-dimensional. Exceptional shooter and ball handler for sure but a very enigmatic presence on a team.

If this were a poll where you had to take into consideration contracts, off-court stuff, team fit, age...etc, you'd have a very different order. For example, Kawhi hasn't played anywhere close to a full season of basketball in 3 years, continues to take unilateral decisions about when and how much he'll be available to the team, and nothing seems to indicate this is going to change. It hasn't stopped anyone from voting him in front of guys like Tatum or Butler.

I think this poll is meant just from a basketball standpoint and Kyrie is absolutely a top-15 basketball player. Him being an unreliable basket case doesn't change that for the purposes of this poll, imo. From a real-world basketball standpoint, any organization looking to sign Kyrie as a FA will need to have all sorts of clauses and options built in to the contract to give a team all sorts of off-ramps to be able to cut him out if needed. Personally, I wouldn't offer him anything beyond a 1+1 deal with the 2nd year being a team option. And that is assuming I were running a championship calibre team with vets that could potentially keep Kyrie onside, like the Lakers, Golden State, Milwaukee, or Philadelphia.

Draymond as a top-25 player is a joke. The year he played without Thompson and Curry was one of the absolute worst of his career. He averaged something like 8-6-6 on 38fg% 28 3pt%. He's great at what he does, but like with Gobert, you need AT LEAST 2 players who are perennial all-stars for them to worthwhile, which makes the AT-BEST the 3rd wheel on a good team. The same goes for Jrue Holiday.

This is why looking at nonsense like RAPTOR scores and all these metrics is a waste of time; you need the context in which these guys play to really understand their worth. The same applies to guys like Kyrie, Leonard, James Harden, or Westbrook.

I don't agree with you at all that he's a top 15 player "from just a basketball standpoint". He's no doubt an exceptional shooter and ball handler. He's super efficient and puts up big numbers. But every other guy in the top 15 does more. Kyrie is not a defensive impact, he doesn't pressure the rim, he doesn't draw a ton of doubles, and when he draws help at the rim he isn't a deadly passer. He's super talented, and he can "get his", but on a high-end team his best role is being a really good c&s player and secondary creator attacking weakside. Kyrie's abundance of skills make seem overqualified for this role but when I look at him functionally in an offense, I don't see him as being better in a bigger role than that. Boston is the only place we've seen him as the offensive focal point, and Boston's offense was better before and after Kyrie's time there. As a primary creator he's pretty unintuitive about balancing scoring and playmaking. When he moves the ball it seems forced, and when he's not moving the ball he's prone to tunnel vision and making passes. I get that this guy averages 25+ppg and 6apg on great shooting numbers, but when I watch a ton of Kyrie I notice there are a lot of parts missing to his game.

I do think Kyrie is definitely a top 30 player. I also don't have a huge problem with someone looking past his behavior and saying he's a top 20 guy. But I disagree strongly that he's top 15 "from a basketball standpoint". You can make a statistical argument for him, but if I'm scouting Kyrie I don't have him as high as you do.

You saying picking Draymond is a joke indicates to me that you're really into scoring. Draymond is a garbage scorer. Ben Wallace is one of my favorite players (I think he belonged in the MVP conversation for his 3-year peak) and was way worse on offense than Draymond. Draymond is clearly one of the best defenders of his generation, and a clever playmaker that has made a big impact pairing with movement shooters. If we were drafting for a 7-game playoff series, I'd choose Draymond over Kyrie (though I wouldn't be surprised if Draymond falls off even more this year. I didn't vote for him).

You comment about Gobert...that he needs "AT LEAST 2 players who are perennial all-stars for them to worthwhile"... I don't see how that doesn't apply to Kyrie and a TON of players in the top 30. Kyrie you're going to want an offensive focal point (he's played with Lebron, Durant, and Harden), and you're also going to need a lot of defense around him. Gobert you also need that offensive focal point (Imagine if Gobert had been the 2nd best player to Lebron, Durant, or Harden, instead of Donovan Mitchell), but your defense is covered. Kyrie not being an elite offense unto himself hold him back from being on Gobert's level, and does have me leaning slightly towards Draymond in this comparison. You can take any more defensive-oriented star and say "he needs scoring around him!" but that sword cuts both ways. People think defense is more replaceable until you actually try to win a championship and realize you need really high-level defenders almost all of the time.

[Duffman100]

Went with Holiday.

Kyrie is just so damn unreliable. Hard to put a guy who plays 30-50 games max a season as a top player.

[SA37]

I voted Shai. I have a really hard time separating most of the remaining guys. I think Edwards and Garland are the most likely to take a big leap this season. Holiday and Draymond are tempting choices.

Please stop voting for Kyrie. Can we let him prove he is interested in trying to play a full season of ball before we say he's better than the other guys on this list. Even at his best he's a little 1-dimensional. Exceptional shooter and ball handler for sure but a very enigmatic presence on a team.

If this were a poll where you had to take into consideration contracts, off-court stuff, team fit, age...etc, you'd have a very different order. For example, Kawhi hasn't played anywhere close to a full season of basketball in 3 years, continues to take unilateral decisions about when and how much he'll be available to the team, and nothing seems to indicate this is going to change. It hasn't stopped anyone from voting him in front of guys like Tatum or Butler.

I think this poll is meant just from a basketball standpoint and Kyrie is absolutely a top-15 basketball player. Him being an unreliable basket case doesn't change that for the purposes of this poll, imo. From a real-world basketball standpoint, any organization looking to sign Kyrie as a FA will need to have all sorts of clauses and options built in to the contract to give a team all sorts of off-ramps to be able to cut him out if needed. Personally, I wouldn't offer him anything beyond a 1+1 deal with the 2nd year being a team option. And that is assuming I were running a championship calibre team with vets that could potentially keep Kyrie onside, like the Lakers, Golden State, Milwaukee, or Philadelphia.

Draymond as a top-25 player is a joke. The year he played without Thompson and Curry was one of the absolute worst of his career. He averaged something like 8-6-6 on 38fg% 28 3pt%. He's great at what he does, but like with Gobert, you need AT LEAST 2 players who are perennial all-stars for them to worthwhile, which makes the AT-BEST the 3rd wheel on a good team. The same goes for Jrue Holiday.

This is why looking at nonsense like RAPTOR scores and all these metrics is a waste of time; you need the context in which these guys play to really understand their worth. The same applies to guys like Kyrie, Leonard, James Harden, or Westbrook.

I don't agree with you at all that he's a top 15 player "from just a basketball standpoint". He's no doubt an exceptional shooter and ball handler. He's super efficient and puts up big numbers. But every other guy in the top 15 does more. Kyrie is not a defensive impact, he doesn't pressure the rim, he doesn't draw a ton of doubles, and when he draws help at the rim he isn't a deadly passer. He's super talented, and he can "get his", but on a high-end team his best role is being a really good c&s player and secondary creator attacking weakside. Kyrie's abundance of skills make seem overqualified for this role but when I look at him functionally in an offense, I don't see him as being better in a bigger role than that. Boston is the only place we've seen him as the offensive focal point, and Boston's offense was better before and after Kyrie's time there. As a primary creator he's pretty unintuitive about balancing scoring and playmaking. When he moves the ball it seems forced, and when he's not moving the ball he's prone to tunnel vision and making passes. I get that this guy averages 25+ppg and 6apg on great shooting numbers, but when I watch a ton of Kyrie I notice there are a lot of parts missing to his game.

I do think Kyrie is definitely a top 30 player. I also don't have a huge problem with someone looking past his behavior and saying he's a top 20 guy. But I disagree strongly that he's top 15 "from a basketball standpoint". You can make a statistical argument for him, but if I'm scouting Kyrie I don't have him as high as you do.

You saying picking Draymond is a joke indicates to me that you're really into scoring. Draymond is a garbage scorer. Ben Wallace is one of my favorite players (I think he belonged in the MVP conversation for his 3-year peak) and was way worse on offense than Draymond. Draymond is clearly one of the best defenders of his generation, and a clever playmaker that has made a big impact pairing with movement shooters. If we were drafting for a 7-game playoff series, I'd choose Draymond over Kyrie (though I wouldn't be surprised if Draymond falls off even more this year. I didn't vote for him).

You comment about Gobert...that he needs "AT LEAST 2 players who are perennial all-stars for them to worthwhile"... I don't see how that doesn't apply to Kyrie and a TON of players in the top 30. Kyrie you're going to want an offensive focal point (he's played with Lebron, Durant, and Harden), and you're also going to need a lot of defense around him. Gobert you also need that offensive focal point (Imagine if Gobert had been the 2nd best player to Lebron, Durant, or Harden, instead of Donovan Mitchell), but your defense is covered. Kyrie not being an elite offense unto himself hold him back from being on Gobert's level, and does have me leaning slightly towards Draymond in this comparison. You can take any more defensive-oriented star and say "he needs scoring around him!" but that sword cuts both ways. People think defense is more replaceable until you actually try to win a championship and realize you need really high-level defenders almost all of the time.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Kyrie, although I don't think we're too far apart there. I do agree Kyrie hasn't proven to be an elite offense unto himself.

Draymond Green is not a player you build your franchise around. He isn't even the 2nd player you build around. We can only speculate because we have precisely one season where he hasn't played in a specific environment ...and his output was absolute garbage. Forget scoring. Sub 40% on 2s and sub 30% on 3s? I mean, Ben Simmons can't make a shot from outside of 5 feet and even he manages to less offensively challenged.

The problem with Gobert is he is basically like Dikembe Mutombo or Ben Wallace. Sure, Gobert is better offensively than either one of those guys, but that's just not saying much. Gobert is someone who is hard to keep on the court in the playoffs, which makes building a roster around him at the very least suspect. You can make a similar case for a guy like Ben Simmons. It'll be real interesting to see how Gobert does over the next 2-3 years.

[cupcakesnake]

We'll have to agree to disagree on Kyrie, although I don't think we're too far apart there. I do agree Kyrie hasn't proven to be an elite offense unto himself.

Draymond Green is not a player you build your franchise around. He isn't even the 2nd player you build around. We can only speculate because we have precisely one season where he hasn't played in a specific environment ...and his output was absolute garbage. Forget scoring. Sub 40% on 2s and sub 30% on 3s? I mean, Ben Simmons can't make a shot from outside of 5 feet and even he manages to less offensively challenged.

The problem with Gobert is he is basically like Dikembe Mutombo or Ben Wallace. Sure, Gobert is better offensively than either one of those guys, but that's just not saying much. Gobert is someone who is hard to keep on the court in the playoffs, which makes building a roster around him at the very least suspect. You can make a similar case for a guy like Ben Simmons. It'll be real interesting to see how Gobert does over the next 2-3 years.

I don't mind being far apart on a ranking. Kyrie is talented and productive enough that I don't think it's outrageous to see him high up on anyone's list.

I just disagree with the emphasis being put so heavily on scoring here. People tend to treat scoring like it's irreplaceable and can only come from stars, and treat other skills as ultimately replaceable and you can always "find" role players to give you that.

I've felt this way ever since watching a washed-up Sprewell and mid-30s Cassell (a guy who had never made an all-star team until that year) synergize with Garnett to go to the Western Conference Finals in 2004. When you have a star who is elite at other things, you can put good (not great) scorers to pair with them an expect success.

What Draymond does is mega boost your defense. Typically when he's on the court, you don't need much to have the best defense in the league (which the Warriors were last year despite playing lots of poor defenders like Klay and Poole next to a small guard in Curry). Draymond cannot score on his own (he's one of the worst scorers in the league), but his offensive strengths (playmaking in the pick & roll and at the nail) synergizes well with movement shooters. Yes if you put Draymond on the Pistons, it would sure be ugly. But what if you put Draymond on a team without Steph/Durant/Klay etc. but with lesser versions. Draymond + VanVleet + Duncan Robinson might be surprisingly more competitive than you'd think, because Draymond is that impactful. I agree Draymond is a bad scorer. I don't see this as completely damning on its own.

The Gobert in the playoffs narrative is beat to death and hasn't been based on facts in recent years. Gobert hasn't been played off the floor since 2019, and never at any point has Utah found success by benching Gobert. They've only tried going small out of desperation in a losing effort. He's been a net positive in the playoffs for the past 3 years. Utah (not Gobert) was vulnerable since they had no help defense outside of Gobert, meaning all you had to do is get him out of the paint to break Utah's defensive scheme. This has basically nothing to do with Gobert as an individual player and everything to do with team build.

Yeah you need 2 other huge talents next to Gobert or Draymond. But you also need 2 other huge talents next to Kyrie to achieve anything. His scoring isn't precious, objectively more valuable, or harder to replace/find than Gobert/Draymond's defense.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Vote: Jrue Holiday

Was really tempted to go Darius Garland here. Both guys are lowkey elite impact players, and while Holiday is the superior defender, impact metrics paint Garland as underrated on that end. My issue with Holiday is his recent postseason scoring (in)efficiency, otherwise I'd have been nominating and voting him top 20. But in a direct comparison vs Garland, it seems inappropriate to hold Holiday's PS issues against him when we've yet to see Garland perform in a playoff series

Following EM's lead I'll give my own rankings of the remaining nominated players:

26. Darius Garland: see above. Plays both ends, already a prodigious playmaker and potent scorer, should only improve going forward

27. Draymond Green: only player left who's proven capable of reliably anchoring one side of the floor at such an elite level, and fortunate enough to be in a team fit which maximizes his value as a playmaking big at the other end

28. Brandon Ingram: has all the physical tools and a strong repertoire of refined skills at age 25, call it a hunch but I expect him to take a notable leap in both scoring efficiency and defensive impact. Already underrated as a playmaker and now he has Zion to work with

29. Donovan Mitchell: defense should improve (he has the ability and proved as much earlier in his career) but offensive impact could take a hit not being the center of a heliocentric system. At 6'1" with tunnel vision and shoot-first instincts limiting his playmaking ability, Mitchell's ceiling feels capped at around top 25-30

30. Kyrie Irving: this is me taking a leap of faith. If he's relatively available and doing his scoring thing then this is where I'd rank his overall value. As with Mitchell he lacks pure playmaking instincts/ability and unlike Mitchell, he's never demonstrated a competency for defense nor does he have Mitchell's physical tools (length, strength)

Next for me is Khris Middleton and Fred VanVleet who weren't nominated. Two dependable allstar-ish caliber supporting pieces who impact winning at both ends. Well-rounded high IQ vets who don't hurt you anywhere and contribute everywhere

I then have the remaining nominated players (Anthony Edwards, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, DeMar DeRozan, Bradley Beal) competing for top 40 vs a group of unnominated players:

LaMelo Ball, Ben Simmons, De'Aaron Fox, Tyrese Haliburton, Evan Mobley, Jarrett Allen, Jaren Jackson Jr., Domantas Sabonis, Robert Williams III, Dejounte Murray, Zach LaVine, Jamal Murray, probably a few that I'm missing

[SA37]

Spoiler:

We'll have to agree to disagree on Kyrie, although I don't think we're too far apart there. I do agree Kyrie hasn't proven to be an elite offense unto himself.

Draymond Green is not a player you build your franchise around. He isn't even the 2nd player you build around. We can only speculate because we have precisely one season where he hasn't played in a specific environment ...and his output was absolute garbage. Forget scoring. Sub 40% on 2s and sub 30% on 3s? I mean, Ben Simmons can't make a shot from outside of 5 feet and even he manages to less offensively challenged.

The problem with Gobert is he is basically like Dikembe Mutombo or Ben Wallace. Sure, Gobert is better offensively than either one of those guys, but that's just not saying much. Gobert is someone who is hard to keep on the court in the playoffs, which makes building a roster around him at the very least suspect. You can make a similar case for a guy like Ben Simmons. It'll be real interesting to see how Gobert does over the next 2-3 years.

I don't mind being far apart on a ranking. Kyrie is talented and productive enough that I don't think it's outrageous to see him high up on anyone's list.

I just disagree with the emphasis being put so heavily on scoring here. People tend to treat scoring like it's irreplaceable and can only come from stars, and treat other skills as ultimately replaceable and you can always "find" role players to give you that.

I've felt this way ever since watching a washed-up Sprewell and mid-30s Cassell (a guy who had never made an all-star team until that year) synergize with Garnett to go to the Western Conference Finals in 2004. When you have a star who is elite at other things, you can put good (not great) scorers to pair with them an expect success.

What Draymond does is mega boost your defense. Typically when he's on the court, you don't need much to have the best defense in the league (which the Warriors were last year despite playing lots of poor defenders like Klay and Poole next to a small guard in Curry). Draymond cannot score on his own (he's one of the worst scorers in the league), but his offensive strengths (playmaking in the pick & roll and at the nail) synergizes well with movement shooters. Yes if you put Draymond on the Pistons, it would sure be ugly. But what if you put Draymond on a team without Steph/Durant/Klay etc. but with lesser versions. Draymond + VanVleet + Duncan Robinson might be surprisingly more competitive than you'd think, because Draymond is that impactful. I agree Draymond is a bad scorer. I don't see this as completely damning on its own.

The Gobert in the playoffs narrative is beat to death and hasn't been based on facts in recent years. Gobert hasn't been played off the floor since 2019, and never at any point has Utah found success by benching Gobert. They've only tried going small out of desperation in a losing effort. He's been a net positive in the playoffs for the past 3 years. Utah (not Gobert) was vulnerable since they had no help defense outside of Gobert, meaning all you had to do is get him out of the paint to break Utah's defensive scheme. This has basically nothing to do with Gobert as an individual player and everything to do with team build.

Yeah you need 2 other huge talents next to Gobert or Draymond. But you also need 2 other huge talents next to Kyrie to achieve anything. His scoring isn't precious, objectively more valuable, or harder to replace/find than Gobert/Draymond's defense.

The issue isn't finding scorers; the issue is finding scorers who can do so efficiently, not just from a % standpoint, but also being able to do so within an offense that keeps others involved. That's basically the difference between guys like LeBron, Harden, Durant, or Doncic and pure scorers, like Carmelo Anthony, Allen Iverson, or Bradley Beal.

I agree with your take on Draymond, I just don't think those skills make him a top-25 player. He's great at what he does and he is an amazing fit with Golden State, but I just don't think his skills transfer across most other teams.

I disagree with your last take. I don't think there are many Kyrie Irving's in the league because he isn't just a pure scorer. As you pointed out earlier, he may not have what it takes to be the #1 option on a championship calibre team, but that doesn't make him easy to replace.

[BobbyPortisEyes]

I disagree with your last take. I don't think there are many Kyrie Irving's in the league because he isn't just a pure scorer. As you pointed out earlier, he may not have what it takes to be the #1 option on a championship calibre team, but that doesn't make him easy to replace.

What is he aside from being a pure scorer? I voted him #25 by the way. But scoring is the only thing he brings to the table. His fancy dribbling is really just a means for him to score.

[cupcakesnake]

My final rankings:

25. Shai
26. Holiday
27. Edward
28. Garland
29. Draymond
30. Mitchell
31. Middleton
32. Kyrie
33. Ingram
34. Beal



Derozan isn't in my top 40.

[SA37]

I disagree with your last take. I don't think there are many Kyrie Irving's in the league because he isn't just a pure scorer. As you pointed out earlier, he may not have what it takes to be the #1 option on a championship calibre team, but that doesn't make him easy to replace.

What is he aside from being a pure scorer? I voted him #25 by the way. But scoring is the only thing he brings to the table. His fancy dribbling is really just a means for him to score.

His ability to get into the paint puts enormous pressure on defenses and opens up all sorts of easy opportunities for his other teammates. He is as unguardable of a player as you'll find in the league. He is a good passer. He is effective playing both on and off the ball, which is not the case with guys like James Harden or Russell Westbrook. He is an elite shooter and one of the most prolific players in the 4th quarter and in the clutch. He isn't an elite defender, but he certainly isn't liability on defense.

Player A: 23ppg 6a 4rpg 47fg% 39 3pt% 88 ft%

Player B: 24ppg 6a 4rpg 47fg% 42 3pt% 91 ft%

Player C: 24ppg 6a 4rpg 44fg% 37 3pt% 89 ft%

Can you guess the 3 players?

Spoiler:

Player A: Irving

Player B: Curry

Player C: Lillard

[Duffman100]

I disagree with your last take. I don't think there are many Kyrie Irving's in the league because he isn't just a pure scorer. As you pointed out earlier, he may not have what it takes to be the #1 option on a championship calibre team, but that doesn't make him easy to replace.

What is he aside from being a pure scorer? I voted him #25 by the way. But scoring is the only thing he brings to the table. His fancy dribbling is really just a means for him to score.

His ability to get into the paint puts enormous pressure on defenses and opens up all sorts of easy opportunities for his other teammates. He is as unguardable of a player as you'll find in the league. He is a good passer. He is effective playing both on and off the ball, which is not the case with guys like James Harden or Russell Westbrook. He is an elite shooter and one of the most prolific players in the 4th quarter and in the clutch. He isn't an elite defender, but he certainly isn't liability on defense.

Player A: 23ppg 6a 4rpg 47fg% 39 3pt% 88 ft%

Player B: 24ppg 6a 4rpg 47fg% 42 3pt% 91 ft%

Player C: 24ppg 6a 4rpg 44fg% 37 3pt% 89 ft%

Can you guess the 3 players?

Spoiler:

Player A: Irving

Player B: Curry

Player C: Lillard

Games played the last 3 seasons.

5, 64, 63 - 132
29, 67, 69 - 195
29, 54, 20 - 102

Spoiler:

Curry
Lillard
Irving

And that's not starting to talk about playoff availability.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

What is he aside from being a pure scorer? I voted him #25 by the way. But scoring is the only thing he brings to the table. His fancy dribbling is really just a means for him to score.

His ability to get into the paint puts enormous pressure on defenses and opens up all sorts of easy opportunities for his other teammates. He is as unguardable of a player as you'll find in the league. He is a good passer. He is effective playing both on and off the ball, which is not the case with guys like James Harden or Russell Westbrook. He is an elite shooter and one of the most prolific players in the 4th quarter and in the clutch. He isn't an elite defender, but he certainly isn't liability on defense.

Player A: 23ppg 6a 4rpg 47fg% 39 3pt% 88 ft%

Player B: 24ppg 6a 4rpg 47fg% 42 3pt% 91 ft%

Player C: 24ppg 6a 4rpg 44fg% 37 3pt% 89 ft%

Can you guess the 3 players?

Player A: Irving

Player B: Curry

Player C: Lillard

Games played the last 3 seasons.

5, 64, 63 - 132
29, 67, 69 - 195
29, 54, 20 - 102


[spoiler]Curry
Lillard
Irving

And that's not starting to talk about playoff availability.

That and, in general, Irving's...quirky... outspoken...unorthodox personality and opinions are why he wasn't available, why he doesn't have a contract extension, and why trade interest in him was so low.

Covid was an exceptional case that is unlikely to be repeated, but I think it is completely fair to question Irving's commitment to basketball and to highly consider the destructive nature of his personality. He was a problem in Cleveland and a problem in Boston before considering anything that has happened in Brooklyn.

Still, as a player, Irving is at or near Steph Curry or Damian Lillard's level. To suggest Irving is just a scorer who can be replaced by another scorer is wildly inaccurate.

[zimpy27]

So where does LaVine sit with his recent big contract?

Does he crack top 40?