If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

[jasonxxx102]

EPM Rankings

Franz Wagner: Rank 30
Evan Mobley: Rank 177

Yup. Those Magic fans.

Are you just cherry picking advanced stats?

Franz Raptor 3.2 War 4.6
Mobley Raptor -2.6 War 0.1

It could change in the future. Franz is only a few months younger.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Do you understand how those are calculated?

[azcatz11]

Are you just cherry picking advanced stats?

Franz Raptor 3.2 War 4.6
Mobley Raptor -2.6 War 0.1

It could change in the future. Franz is only a few months younger.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Do you understand how those are calculated?

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

[basketballRob]

Franz Raptor 3.2 War 4.6
Mobley Raptor -2.6 War 0.1

It could change in the future. Franz is only a few months younger.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Do you understand how those are calculated?

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

Franz is in the top 40 in all those advanced stats. Do you think any Allstars are out of the top 40? Your claim that Mobley is better and outside the 200 in so many advanced stats is puzzling.

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[jasonxxx102]

Franz Raptor 3.2 War 4.6
Mobley Raptor -2.6 War 0.1

It could change in the future. Franz is only a few months younger.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Do you understand how those are calculated?

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

I actually like advanced stats quite a bit. EPM is really good imo. RAPTOR is garbage but that’s a different discussion.

I’m fine with people using advanced stats as a data point but that guy clearly doesn’t understand the calculations AND is using them as a straight up player comparison tool with no context so totally worthless

The problem is that EPM favors high usage players and is based on the on/off splits. If you look at Franz on/off splits they’re awesome because the magic are absolutely garbage and without him on the floor they’re usually without Paolo also and just flat out suck.

Mobleys usage is 6pts lower AND the Cavs team has significantly more talent so his on/off splits aren’t that impressive. He’s the 4th best player on the team.

[jasonxxx102]

Do you understand how those are calculated?

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

Franz is in the top 40 in all those advanced stats. Do you think any Allstars are out of the top 40? Your claim that Mobley is better and outside the 200 in so many advanced stats is puzzling.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Read up on how the stats are calculated before coming to the conclusion that they prove player A is better or worse than player B.

Hint: they don’t tell anything without proper context

[basketballRob]

Do you understand how those are calculated?

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

I actually like advanced stats quite a bit. EPM is really good imo. RAPTOR is garbage but that’s a different discussion.

I’m fine with people using advanced stats as a data point but that guy clearly doesn’t understand the calculations AND is using them as a straight up player comparison tool with no context so totally worthless

The problem is that EPM favors high usage players and is based on the on/off splits. If you look at Franz on/off splits they’re awesome because the magic are absolutely garbage and without him on the floor they’re usually without Paolo also and just flat out suck.

Mobleys usage is 6pts lower AND the Cavs team has significantly more talent so his on/off splits aren’t that impressive. He’s the 4th best player on the team.

Franz is also ahead of Mobley defensively in EPM and Raptor by a good margin. So there's that.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[basketballRob]

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

Franz is in the top 40 in all those advanced stats. Do you think any Allstars are out of the top 40? Your claim that Mobley is better and outside the 200 in so many advanced stats is puzzling.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Read up on how the stats are calculated before coming to the conclusion that they prove player A is better or worse than player B.

Hint: they don’t tell anything without proper context

Oh, okay

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[azcatz11]

Do you understand how those are calculated?

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

I actually like advanced stats quite a bit. EPM is really good imo. RAPTOR is garbage but that’s a different discussion.

I’m fine with people using advanced stats as a data point but that guy clearly doesn’t understand the calculations AND is using them as a straight up player comparison tool with no context so totally worthless

The problem is that EPM favors high usage players and is based on the on/off splits. If you look at Franz on/off splits they’re awesome because the magic are absolutely garbage and without him on the floor they’re usually without Paolo also and just flat out suck.

Mobleys usage is 6pts lower AND the Cavs team has significantly more talent so his on/off splits aren’t that impressive. He’s the 4th best player on the team.

I think most people use them like he did. Just posting random crap against the wall to try to say x > y.

Thanks for providing context. Should be a requirement when using them!

[jasonxxx102]

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

I actually like advanced stats quite a bit. EPM is really good imo. RAPTOR is garbage but that’s a different discussion.

I’m fine with people using advanced stats as a data point but that guy clearly doesn’t understand the calculations AND is using them as a straight up player comparison tool with no context so totally worthless

The problem is that EPM favors high usage players and is based on the on/off splits. If you look at Franz on/off splits they’re awesome because the magic are absolutely garbage and without him on the floor they’re usually without Paolo also and just flat out suck.

Mobleys usage is 6pts lower AND the Cavs team has significantly more talent so his on/off splits aren’t that impressive. He’s the 4th best player on the team.

Franz is also ahead of Mobley defensively in EPM and Raptor by a good margin. So there's that.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

The fact that he’s supposedly better than Mobley defensively in both stats should tell you all you need to know about them.

Anybody who’s watched both players play knows that Franz isn’t even in the same universe defensively.

RAPTOR is the least respected advanced stat that’s available, it’s trash, no use in referencing it

[basketballRob]

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[jasonxxx102]

Franz on the court has a -0.3 net rating (not very impressive) but his on/off is a 10.4 net rating which is 92nd percentile in the league.

You know why? Well it should be obvious.

He’s not blowing away teams when he’s on the court (against other starts primarily) but when he’s off the court the magic are getting blown out because they have no talent.

In comparison Mobley is +1.7 on but on/off is -7.1. For the exact opposite reason

[JonFromVA]

Until last night most of Mobley's contribution has been his defense.

I'll leave you guys to keep arguing who's the best sophomore, just want to point out two things:

It's hard to win with a young player on the floor because his mistakes cost the team constantly. That the Cavs are winning games and leaning on Evan so hard is a testament to how advanced he is.

The other thing is scoring can be easy and efficient on a losing team right up to the point the games start to get close, that's when defense will start to key in on stopping a feature player and might even game plan to take him out. Watch for these opportunities for these young players to truly rise to the occasion and help win a game.

Probably why some rate Cade highly. The Pistons weren't winning much, but when they did he was often a major factor.

[tooler]

The other thing is scoring can be easy and efficient on a losing team right up to the point the games start to get close, that's when defense will start to key in on stopping a feature player and might even game plan to take him out. Watch for these opportunities for these young players to truly rise to the occasion and help win a game.

It's always funny to see which teams have done their homework on Franz. Some teams will send a double team or a hard show on the high pick and roll. But about a week ago, Portland tried containing him in the 4th with Drew Eubanks and Damian Lillard. They finally put Jerami Grant on him and he just gave the ball to Paolo.

The problem is all these teams will circle him for next year. It's going to be rough.

[TheLand13]

Do you understand how those are calculated?

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

Franz is in the top 40 in all those advanced stats. Do you think any Allstars are out of the top 40? Your claim that Mobley is better and outside the 200 in so many advanced stats is puzzling.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

You are comparing two players with vastly different roles using advanced stats. That’s what’s puzzling.

A guy who is the first option on offense or even the second (I’m not sure which criteria Franz falls under) is almost always going to have greater advanced stats. That’s just how it works. Advanced stats are meant to help give more in depth analysis on how great a player is, but just like with any other stat, it’s useless if you aren’t factoring in context.

I’ve said multiple times that Mobleys numbers are very misleading due to the kind of team he’s on. Mitchell and Garland are both taking shot opportunities away from him and Allen is the one spending the most time in the middle, which takes rebounding opportunities away from him (and blocks to an extent).

This is one of those cases where unless you are watching both players regularly, you are in no position to truly say which one is better. And stats aren’t going to do a good job telling that story either.

With all of that said, Mobleys 38 point outing has been eye opening for a lot of people. But it didn’t surprise me at all. What also didn’t surprise me is how many people tried to downplay it. Mobleys improved tremendously at moving with the ball and attacking the rim. His drop step and post up game is actually scary good and he’s even started to turn a corner with free throws. Keep in mind that he’s doing this on a team that regularly lacks spacing, resulting in the paint being more packed with defenders.

So while I’m not going to openly state that Mobley is better than Franz, what I will say is that if Mitchell wasn’t on the team and Mobley was the second option, we probably wouldn’t even be having this debate right now. I will also say that you guys are horribly underrating Mobley right now, and as long as his scoring options continue to be limited, his offense will continue to be overlooked. If there was no Mitchell, I’m 90% certain Mobley would be averaging 20/10, if not more. Would you still have the same opinion at that point?

[buzzkilloton]

Jalen Green isn’t even top 5 in this draft. He’s overrated on these boards. In no particular order, it would be:

- Barnes
- Mobley
- Cade
- Wagner
- Giddey

Yup this is the list right here. Everyone will have their own order but all of these guys are legit.

Also agree on Green he was way overrated esp on this board. His defense is terrible, inefficient, and hes scrawny AF.

[toooskies]

Franz on the court has a -0.3 net rating (not very impressive) but his on/off is a 10.4 net rating which is 92nd percentile in the league.

You know why? Well it should be obvious.

He’s not blowing away teams when he’s on the court (against other starts primarily) but when he’s off the court the magic are getting blown out because they have no talent.

In comparison Mobley is +1.7 on but on/off is -7.1. For the exact opposite reason

Mobley's on/off is horribly skewed by opponent 3-point percentage luck. It's a textbook case of why on/off isn't stable in small samples.

Edit: for reference...

Read on Twitter

[JonFromVA]

The other thing is scoring can be easy and efficient on a losing team right up to the point the games start to get close, that's when defense will start to key in on stopping a feature player and might even game plan to take him out. Watch for these opportunities for these young players to truly rise to the occasion and help win a game.

It's always funny to see which teams have done their homework on Franz. Some teams will send a double team or a hard show on the high pick and roll. But about a week ago, Portland tried containing him in the 4th with Drew Eubanks and Damian Lillard. They finally put Jerami Grant on him and he just gave the ball to Paolo.

The problem is all these teams will circle him for next year. It's going to be rough.

You know you've got something special when they figure out how to adjust to the adjustments after the "book" is out. Typically gotta run in to a top coach in the playoffs to face having your game completely dissected and then everyone else will copycat the next season.

[JonFromVA]

Hey - here’s random advanced stats which prove why one player is better than another. It’s so dumb

Franz is in the top 40 in all those advanced stats. Do you think any Allstars are out of the top 40? Your claim that Mobley is better and outside the 200 in so many advanced stats is puzzling.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

You are comparing two players with vastly different roles using advanced stats. That’s what’s puzzling.

A guy who is the first option on offense or even the second (I’m not sure which criteria Franz falls under) is almost always going to have greater advanced stats. That’s just how it works. Advanced stats are meant to help give more in depth analysis on how great a player is, but just like with any other stat, it’s useless if you aren’t factoring in context.

I’ve said multiple times that Mobleys numbers are very misleading due to the kind of team he’s on. Mitchell and Garland are both taking shot opportunities away from him and Allen is the one spending the most time in the middle, which takes rebounding opportunities away from him (and blocks to an extent).

This is one of those cases where unless you are watching both players regularly, you are in no position to truly say which one is better. And stats aren’t going to do a good job telling that story either.

With all of that said, Mobleys 38 point outing has been eye opening for a lot of people. But it didn’t surprise me at all. What also didn’t surprise me is how many people tried to downplay it. Mobleys improved tremendously at moving with the ball and attacking the rim. His drop step and post up game is actually scary good and he’s even started to turn a corner with free throws. Keep in mind that he’s doing this on a team that regularly lacks spacing, resulting in the paint being more packed with defenders.

So while I’m not going to openly state that Mobley is better than Franz, what I will say is that if Mitchell wasn’t on the team and Mobley was the second option, we probably wouldn’t even be having this debate right now. I will also say that you guys are horribly underrating Mobley right now, and as long as his scoring options continue to be limited, his offense will continue to be overlooked. If there was no Mitchell, I’m 90% certain Mobley would be averaging 20/10, if not more. Would you still have the same opinion at that point?

Evan needs to show this again, or it will just seem like the Bucks and Lopez were a step slow in this one.

Its still better to see a flash like this than not.

There's a fair chance its Mobley who's been a step slow much of the season, and if this is a sign he's putting some nagging injuries in the rear view mirror - we should see more of the same - albeit spacing is always an issue with the Cavs.

[JonFromVA]

Franz on the court has a -0.3 net rating (not very impressive) but his on/off is a 10.4 net rating which is 92nd percentile in the league.

You know why? Well it should be obvious.

He’s not blowing away teams when he’s on the court (against other starts primarily) but when he’s off the court the magic are getting blown out because they have no talent.

In comparison Mobley is +1.7 on but on/off is -7.1. For the exact opposite reason

Mobley's on/off is horribly skewed by opponent 3-point percentage luck. It's a textbook case of why on/off isn't stable in small samples.

Edit: for reference...

Read on Twitter

fwiw, I think the Cavs create their own bad luck and I'm not ready to dismiss the idea that Evan plays a part in that somehow. For instance sometime he's not playing close enough to contest a shot well even though he's a leader in 3pt contests. Or often our guard help in the paint rather than letting Mobley or Allen deal with it leaving a shooter open.

None of that changes how amazing he is defensively, but there's a lot to learn even for a player as advanced on the defensive end as Evan and the lineups he's playing with matter given Bickerstaff doesn't trust any of his backup centers.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Is the OP talking about the Scottie Barnes, Franz, and Alp Şengün draft? I'm getting confused over here.