If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#841 » by Yeezus_ » Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:25 pm

basketballRob wrote:Franz up to 21 in War. All the players ahead of him are going to be all-stars. Can Franz make the all-star team this season ?

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lol no.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#842 » by ORLMagicGirl15 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:27 pm

Vampirate wrote:
tooler wrote:basketballRob has been on a tear lately, there's no stopping him right now! And don't ask us to come get him, we're powerless.


Here's a good question

What's the one aspect of his game you want to see Franz work on the most in the off season?

For Raptor fans it's probably Barnes Ball Handling. Even more than shooting.

Probably become a better playmaker, ball handler to alleviate the ball pressure the defender sets. Magic also need him to be a little more aggressive and selfish when it comes to looking for his shots. He's a pretty good all around player.

Oh yeah, REBOUNDING!!!

I know people don't watch the Magic because we don't have a pretty record but trust me when I say Franz bring an absolute calmness to our team that is needed and settles the team down. He's a special player to us. I'm just grateful that we drafted him. He is exactly what we need on this roster.

EDIT: I have not read this thread, only saw this question and thought I would chime in. I just realized that you're going back and forth with one of our own. You have fun with that.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#843 » by basketballRob » Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:34 pm

Vampirate wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
I'm not exactly sure of the possibility, but Franz has potential to become All NBA as well.

Do I think it's as likely as Mobley, Barnes, Cade or Green, no but....it's there.

Franz is 6"10 with offensive skill, there's a scenario where his skills match with his height to make him offensively great.

Potential is a tricky thing to measure.

Next year this whole conversation could look totally different, heck a no name no one's heard of could come and blow everyone away.
Barnes is a couple tiers lower than Franz.

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Well since you again want to brag.

Franz is the better scorer.

Barnes is the better
-Defender
-Rebounder
-Playmaker
-Since January has gotten to the FT line at a much higher rate than Franz.


Franz atm has only 1 elite skill, scoring, he currently doesn't have anything else.


Straight up Mobley, Barnes and Cade provide more value if they are having an off shooting night than Franz does.

This is what you fail to recognize, and congrats you yourself are making other people dislike your player more and more just by running your mouth because you want to brag every chance you get.
Barnes isn't a better defender.

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#844 » by basketballRob » Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:36 pm

Vampirate wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
I'm not exactly sure of the possibility, but Franz has potential to become All NBA as well.

Do I think it's as likely as Mobley, Barnes, Cade or Green, no but....it's there.

Franz is 6"10 with offensive skill, there's a scenario where his skills match with his height to make him offensively great.

Potential is a tricky thing to measure.

Next year this whole conversation could look totally different, heck a no name no one's heard of could come and blow everyone away.
Barnes is a couple tiers lower than Franz.

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Well since you again want to brag.

Franz is the better scorer.

Barnes is the better
-Defender
-Rebounder
-Playmaker
-Since January has gotten to the FT line at a much higher rate than Franz.


Franz atm has only 1 elite skill, scoring, he currently doesn't have anything else.


Straight up Mobley, Barnes and Cade provide more value if they are having an off shooting night than Franz does.

This is what you fail to recognize, and congrats you yourself are making other people dislike your player more and more just by running your mouth because you want to brag every chance you get.
Franz is so much better than Barnes. Is this a joke?

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#845 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:50 pm

Vampirate wrote:
Vox Populi wrote:
Vampirate wrote:Franz is the better scorer.

Barnes is the better
-Defender
-Rebounder
-Playmaker
-Since January has gotten to the FT line at a much higher rate than Franz.


Franz atm has only 1 elite skill, scoring, he currently doesn't have anything else.


Straight up Mobley, Barnes and Cade provide more value if they are having an off shooting night than Franz does.

This is what you fail to recognize, and congrats you yourself are making other people dislike your player more and more just by running your mouth because you want to brag every chance you get.

These sound like Scottie Yarns!

Why are some so keen to put down Franz to build a case for Scottie?


Because when you're making a case that player is the best is entirely based on scoring mostly, you get that refute. Heck I didn't even say Barnes or Franz are better, i'm refuting the idiotic fact that Franz is tiers better just because he's the better scorer.

If you want to argue that Franz is having a better season than Barnes because of his scoring alone that's fine, it's a nitpicky argument but you didn't see me deny that Franz scoring is better.

It's the argument that Franz is tiers better than anyone else as a player is where I have to shoot down the idiotic argument.

As to which player in that draft is the best, it really comes down to which stats you want to support. There's no player that's having a Lebron type year where they are putting up 25pts/ 7 rebounds/7 assists.

If you think Franz doesn't have wholes in his entire game than you're being a homer. As much as Raptor fans bring up Barnes, Cavs fans bring up Mobley etc, we won't deny the holes in the players games that need to be worked on.

But here's a short list.

Cade - Needs to develop a reliable efficient shot, either scoring at the rim or the 3 point line
Mobley - Needs to work on the aspects of his game that can allow him to create his own shot
Barnes - Same as Mobley pretty much, just not as much
Franz - Needs to work on his rebounding and defense
Green - Defense
Giddey - Needs to work on ways to get to the FT Line more


Every player in the league has holes in their game they can be working on to improve and become better, but the first step for any young player is to address the ones that are keeping them from helping their team win games - and Evan Mobley never had those kind of holes in his game.

So, what's next?

Get to an All-Star / All-NBA / All Defensive team level?

Well, Evan is pretty close to the last one, but I think you'd need to expand your list quite a bit to cover everything these guys need to improve on to become one of the top players in the league.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#846 » by tooler » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:13 am

thelead wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
tooler wrote:basketballRob has been on a tear lately, there's no stopping him right now! And don't ask us to come get him, we're powerless.


Here's a good question

What's the one aspect of his game you want to see Franz work on the most in the off season?

For Raptor fans it's probably Barnes Ball Handling. Even more than shooting.

For me, rebounding

Rebounding would be great but I don't think it's something you "work on" during the offseason. You either commit to it or you don't. I'm 50/50 whether he'll ever improve on it. It doesn't fit his personality, but he's also a competitor, so I can't see him leaving it alone forever.

As far as what to work on, I think it's pull-up jump shooting. I wouldn't want him to change his shot of course since he's already good. But a faster release would help take him from 20 PPG to that 23+ PPG level. Continuing the climb on efficiency would be great too. He has a good starting point at .600 TS% but most stars are higher than that.

With Franz it's all about slowly raising the bar, not trying to unlock some major change like 3PT shooting or free throw rate or consistency.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#847 » by Duffman100 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:16 am

Honestly none of these guys are WAY better than the others. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Should be fun to watch this draft class develop.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#848 » by ChumboChappati » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:30 am

jasonxxx102 wrote:Man they must have some real hard stuff in the water up in Toronto :lol:

Everything they say about raptors fans is true. Being a super fan is one thing but this is… something

This thread is literally gone to the dogs; a player who is not even in top 3 of his draft class currently, is now being compared to Magic :lol:
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#849 » by Vampirate » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:47 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
Vox Populi wrote:These sound like Scottie Yarns!

Why are some so keen to put down Franz to build a case for Scottie?


Because when you're making a case that player is the best is entirely based on scoring mostly, you get that refute. Heck I didn't even say Barnes or Franz are better, i'm refuting the idiotic fact that Franz is tiers better just because he's the better scorer.

If you want to argue that Franz is having a better season than Barnes because of his scoring alone that's fine, it's a nitpicky argument but you didn't see me deny that Franz scoring is better.

It's the argument that Franz is tiers better than anyone else as a player is where I have to shoot down the idiotic argument.

As to which player in that draft is the best, it really comes down to which stats you want to support. There's no player that's having a Lebron type year where they are putting up 25pts/ 7 rebounds/7 assists.

If you think Franz doesn't have wholes in his entire game than you're being a homer. As much as Raptor fans bring up Barnes, Cavs fans bring up Mobley etc, we won't deny the holes in the players games that need to be worked on.

But here's a short list.

Cade - Needs to develop a reliable efficient shot, either scoring at the rim or the 3 point line
Mobley - Needs to work on the aspects of his game that can allow him to create his own shot
Barnes - Same as Mobley pretty much, just not as much
Franz - Needs to work on his rebounding and defense
Green - Defense
Giddey - Needs to work on ways to get to the FT Line more


Every player in the league has holes in their game they can be working on to improve and become better, but the first step for any young player is to address the ones that are keeping them from helping their team win games - and Evan Mobley, Barnes, Franz, Sengun, Giddey don't had those kind of holes in their game.

So, what's next?

Get to an All-Star / All-NBA / All Defensive team level?

Well, Evan is pretty close to the last one, but I think you'd need to expand your list quite a bit to cover everything these guys need to improve on to become one of the top players in the league.


I guess the question is what's the biggest hole in the player's game that stops them from reaching the next level?

As for the bolded, I decided to add to it. Mobley wasn't the only player you could say that about imo. Each one of those players do provide value to a team overall in areas the others lack.

If you disagree, than we'll need to deep dive into each player individually and into each players circumstance (ie quality of teammates). Then the next exercise would be to plug that player into another player's circumstance and see how well they do.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#850 » by djsunyc » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:17 am

barnes by month (oct/nov/dec/jan):

Code: Select all

pts: 15.5 / 13 / 15.3 / 18.7
fga: 11.5 / 14.1 / 13.2 / 13.3
fg%: 52.0 / 39.1 / 46.5 / 50.6
3fg%: 52.4 / 26.0 / 21.6 / 30.4
fta:  2.2 / 1.3 / 3.2 / 6.1
ft%: 76.9 / 68.8 / 79.2 / 75.3
ts%: 62.2 / 42.9 / 48.5 / 52.8
rebs: 5.8 / 6.5 / 7.7 / 7.4
asts: 4.3 / 5.6 / 3.9 / 5.3
tov:  1.8 / 2.5 / 2.2 / 1.6
stls: 1.2 / 0.8 / 1 / 1.3
blks: 0.5 / 1.2 / 0.4 / 1.4
ortg: 119.4 / 111.1 / 113.8 / 116.8
drtg: 112.3 / 108.2 / 118.4 / 112.2
net: +7.2 / +2.9 / -4.6 / +4.6
usg: 20.6 / 20.5 / 20 / 20.2


my take on barnes this season - they tried him doing different things on offense and after a hot october start, his shot fell off and it affected his confidence. he also looked like he was hobbling a bit. he was more willing to pass than score. you see the dip in oct. he started to turn things around in nov but things for him took off on dec 23rd. since then, he's been aggressive as a playmaker and a scorer. he really looks for his teammates alot and a ton of his passes either find a wide open player or a wide open player the 2nd pass away. unfortunately, alot of his passes to wide open shooters resulted in misses b/c the raptors are a poor shooting team. he legit could have 2 more assists per night. his assist to tov ratio is quite good for a 2nd year playmaking big.

he still doesn't have an outside shot but he basically bullies and dominates guys in the paint. a very encouraging sign is his ft% - basically a 75% guy from the line right now. he's not scared to get fouled and take the ft's as you can see in the big jump in fta's this month.

in terms of defense, he doesn't have the lateral speed to stay with guards way up top on the perimeter, where he's asked to guard guys alot of the time. our poor defense is a systemic issue imho. he should be playing one to 2 steps back but that's now how we do it. him guarding elsewhere on the court or against bigger players is quite good as well as his help.

now it's a matter of continuing this level of play. he will need to work day and night on the jumper this summer b/c it probably won't come this year. settling into a 18/7/5/1/1 player on 50% shooting.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#851 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:50 pm

Vampirate wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
Because when you're making a case that player is the best is entirely based on scoring mostly, you get that refute. Heck I didn't even say Barnes or Franz are better, i'm refuting the idiotic fact that Franz is tiers better just because he's the better scorer.

If you want to argue that Franz is having a better season than Barnes because of his scoring alone that's fine, it's a nitpicky argument but you didn't see me deny that Franz scoring is better.

It's the argument that Franz is tiers better than anyone else as a player is where I have to shoot down the idiotic argument.

As to which player in that draft is the best, it really comes down to which stats you want to support. There's no player that's having a Lebron type year where they are putting up 25pts/ 7 rebounds/7 assists.

If you think Franz doesn't have wholes in his entire game than you're being a homer. As much as Raptor fans bring up Barnes, Cavs fans bring up Mobley etc, we won't deny the holes in the players games that need to be worked on.

But here's a short list.

Cade - Needs to develop a reliable efficient shot, either scoring at the rim or the 3 point line
Mobley - Needs to work on the aspects of his game that can allow him to create his own shot
Barnes - Same as Mobley pretty much, just not as much
Franz - Needs to work on his rebounding and defense
Green - Defense
Giddey - Needs to work on ways to get to the FT Line more


Every player in the league has holes in their game they can be working on to improve and become better, but the first step for any young player is to address the ones that are keeping them from helping their team win games - and Evan Mobley, Barnes, Franz, Sengun, Giddey don't had those kind of holes in their game.

So, what's next?

Get to an All-Star / All-NBA / All Defensive team level?

Well, Evan is pretty close to the last one, but I think you'd need to expand your list quite a bit to cover everything these guys need to improve on to become one of the top players in the league.


I guess the question is what's the biggest hole in the player's game that stops them from reaching the next level?

As for the bolded, I decided to add to it. Mobley wasn't the only player you could say that about imo. Each one of those players do provide value to a team overall in areas the others lack.

If you disagree, than we'll need to deep dive into each player individually and into each players circumstance (ie quality of teammates). Then the next exercise would be to plug that player into another player's circumstance and see how well they do.


I won't disagree, I don't watch those other guys enough to see how their flaws affect their team. Given the Cavs are the only winning team of the bunch, the correlation is a lot clearer and the biggest hurdle to helping a team win for a young player is defense. Evan is so far ahead of the curve on that end - he doesn't have to provide much on the other end.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#852 » by basketballRob » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:11 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Every player in the league has holes in their game they can be working on to improve and become better, but the first step for any young player is to address the ones that are keeping them from helping their team win games - and Evan Mobley, Barnes, Franz, Sengun, Giddey don't had those kind of holes in their game.

So, what's next?

Get to an All-Star / All-NBA / All Defensive team level?

Well, Evan is pretty close to the last one, but I think you'd need to expand your list quite a bit to cover everything these guys need to improve on to become one of the top players in the league.


I guess the question is what's the biggest hole in the player's game that stops them from reaching the next level?

As for the bolded, I decided to add to it. Mobley wasn't the only player you could say that about imo. Each one of those players do provide value to a team overall in areas the others lack.

If you disagree, than we'll need to deep dive into each player individually and into each players circumstance (ie quality of teammates). Then the next exercise would be to plug that player into another player's circumstance and see how well they do.


I won't disagree, I don't watch those other guys enough to see how their flaws affect their team. Given the Cavs are the only winning team of the bunch, the correlation is a lot clearer and the biggest hurdle to helping a team win for a young player is defense. Evan is so far ahead of the curve on that end - he doesn't have to provide much on the other end.
Franz needs to work on his defense isn't even factual. You can make an argument that Mobley is a better defender, but he looks ahead of everyone else on the list. His rebounding has been fine for a SG but not a SF. Both Mobley and Barnes are more of PFs, so of course they can rebound better. Franz can defend guards on the perimeter better than Barnes or Mobley.

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#853 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:33 pm

basketballRob wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
I guess the question is what's the biggest hole in the player's game that stops them from reaching the next level?

As for the bolded, I decided to add to it. Mobley wasn't the only player you could say that about imo. Each one of those players do provide value to a team overall in areas the others lack.

If you disagree, than we'll need to deep dive into each player individually and into each players circumstance (ie quality of teammates). Then the next exercise would be to plug that player into another player's circumstance and see how well they do.


I won't disagree, I don't watch those other guys enough to see how their flaws affect their team. Given the Cavs are the only winning team of the bunch, the correlation is a lot clearer and the biggest hurdle to helping a team win for a young player is defense. Evan is so far ahead of the curve on that end - he doesn't have to provide much on the other end.
Franz needs to work on his defense isn't even factual. You can make an argument that Mobley is a better defender, but he looks ahead of everyone else on the list. His rebounding has been fine for a SG but not a SF. Both Mobley and Barnes are more of PFs, so of course they can rebound better. Franz can defend guards on the perimeter better than Barnes or Mobley.


Oh? A lot of guards are just moving the ball when they find Evan on them because of stuff like this:

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#854 » by basketballRob » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:36 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I won't disagree, I don't watch those other guys enough to see how their flaws affect their team. Given the Cavs are the only winning team of the bunch, the correlation is a lot clearer and the biggest hurdle to helping a team win for a young player is defense. Evan is so far ahead of the curve on that end - he doesn't have to provide much on the other end.
Franz needs to work on his defense isn't even factual. You can make an argument that Mobley is a better defender, but he looks ahead of everyone else on the list. His rebounding has been fine for a SG but not a SF. Both Mobley and Barnes are more of PFs, so of course they can rebound better. Franz can defend guards on the perimeter better than Barnes or Mobley.


Oh? A lot of guards are just moving the ball when they find Evan on them because of stuff like this:

Sure, Barnes and Mobley have moments. Franz is guarding guards nearly the whole game. He's one of the better defenders on the team. Not sure where the, "he needs to work on his defense " came from.

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#855 » by tooler » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:52 pm

I like what they've done with Franz recently where they put him on the #1 scoring option but not till late in the game. He's too tall to work around screens all game. He struggled early in the season with that when he had to play SG. But since he's long and moves his feet so well and defends without fouling, they can use him late as a surprise new look to slow down a team and make them think.

For example, he guarded CJ McCollum late in the Pelicans game and you could physically see the gears turning in CJ's head trying to figure out if he should attack or not. It's really effective in the 4th when players tighten up and want to focus on iso plays. Now, could Franz "lock down" CJ all game? Hell no. That's not the type of player he is.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#856 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:12 pm

basketballRob wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Franz needs to work on his defense isn't even factual. You can make an argument that Mobley is a better defender, but he looks ahead of everyone else on the list. His rebounding has been fine for a SG but not a SF. Both Mobley and Barnes are more of PFs, so of course they can rebound better. Franz can defend guards on the perimeter better than Barnes or Mobley.


Oh? A lot of guards are just moving the ball when they find Evan on them because of stuff like this:

Sure, Barnes and Mobley have moments. Franz is guarding guards nearly the whole game. He's one of the better defenders on the team. Not sure where the, "he needs to work on his defense " came from.


Feel free to continue that discussion with Vampirate who made the comment, as for Evan, well, it's not hard to get in the paint in this day and age either off the bounce or with the help of a screen.

Feel free to count how many times in this video Evan is stopping guards and wings who did just that:

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#857 » by Vampirate » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:31 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Every player in the league has holes in their game they can be working on to improve and become better, but the first step for any young player is to address the ones that are keeping them from helping their team win games - and Evan Mobley, Barnes, Franz, Sengun, Giddey don't had those kind of holes in their game.

So, what's next?

Get to an All-Star / All-NBA / All Defensive team level?

Well, Evan is pretty close to the last one, but I think you'd need to expand your list quite a bit to cover everything these guys need to improve on to become one of the top players in the league.


I guess the question is what's the biggest hole in the player's game that stops them from reaching the next level?

As for the bolded, I decided to add to it. Mobley wasn't the only player you could say that about imo. Each one of those players do provide value to a team overall in areas the others lack.

If you disagree, than we'll need to deep dive into each player individually and into each players circumstance (ie quality of teammates). Then the next exercise would be to plug that player into another player's circumstance and see how well they do.


I won't disagree, I don't watch those other guys enough to see how their flaws affect their team. Given the Cavs are the only winning team of the bunch, the correlation is a lot clearer and the biggest hurdle to helping a team win for a young player is defense. Evan is so far ahead of the curve on that end - he doesn't have to provide much on the other end.


They are all special, Mobley included, just in different ways.

For what value these guys are providing this season.

Mobley has the chance to be a shut down defender in the playoffs which is worth more than a DPOY in my eyes

Franz has a chance to be a #2 option for a championship team, and has a very small chance to get to be a #1, but it's there

Sengun looks like he's going to be a 22+PPG Center with good passing skills

Giddey's baseline is as awesome as Mobley's, he's basically a 6"8 point guard and because of his size he provides excellent rebounding for his position. Has the potential to become an offensive engine if he can get to the FT line at a higher clip.

Barnes is very much like Giddey in many aspects. He doesn't have Giddey's ball handling, but he makes up that in terms of sheer power. Has the potential to become an offensive engine if his ball handling or shooting really improves.



Fwiw Green and Cade will eventually get there but just haven't figured it out yet.

Green is the most explosive scorer, but his consistency right now just isn't there. He has the potential to become an efficient 30+PPG scorer. Thinking Kyrie here.

Cade provides lots of value to his team, he just needs to develop a reliable efficient shot to go along with his mid range shooting. He has the potential to become an offensive engine. His passing is in the realm of Barnes and Giddey.


Obviously not all of these outcomes are going to happen, heck maybe none of them will, but you can see the foundation in each of these players.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#858 » by basketballRob » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:53 pm

Franz Wagner is the second best ball handler on the Magic behind Fultz.

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#859 » by Vampirate » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:34 pm

basketballRob wrote:Franz Wagner is the second best ball handler on the Magic behind Fultz.

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So what's the point you're trying to make? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#860 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:40 pm

Vampirate wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Franz Wagner is the second best ball handler on the Magic behind Fultz.

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So what's the point you're trying to make? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


:lol: :lol:

needs to keep his man relevant. :lol: :lol:

remember the days when this mans was fighting so hard for Suggs.

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