NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

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Who is your current NBA MVP? (listed alphabetically)

Giannis Antetokounmpo
51
13%
Luka Doncic
70
18%
Kevin Durant
19
5%
Joel Embiid
25
6%
Nikola Jokic
167
42%
Donovan Mitchell
2
1%
Ja Morant
2
1%
Jayson Tatum
48
12%
Zion Williamson
5
1%
Other (Booker, Curry, Davis, SGA, etc.)
8
2%
 
Total votes: 397

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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1581 » by Genjuro » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:12 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:Walton is interesting because I don't think he'd have won it with 58 games played in many other years. Kareem missed nearly as many games as Walton in 78 but the Blazers still ended up with the best record in the league, while the Lakers just inched into the back end of the play-off bracket. Now we can talk about supporting casts, which was heavily in favor of Walton, but most voters just saw 2 greats missing 20-25 games each and one of them still getting much better results. The 76ers were the next best team but Erving had an off year (and missed some time himself), Moses was still a year away from being a MVP candidate and then the other "contenders" were Gervin and David Thompson who played for the weaker 2 division winners and didn't particularly light the world on fire. Both Gervin and Thompson would get the most MVP consideration of their careers that season.


When Walton goes down, the Blazers are already 50-10, on pace for 68 wins. They go 8-14 the rest of the way, still finishing comfortably with the best record overall. And he had just won a ring. It was a great narrative for him and the competition, as you say, wasn't that great.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1582 » by Exp0sed » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:20 pm

jokeboy86 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


The media will not give him 4 in a row even if he wins a ring and is Finals MVP this year. If Jokic wins a ring this year I doubt that you'll see anybody in the media say he's unquestionably the best player in the game. The entire concept of Jokic actually being the best player in the league over other stars who get considerably more attention(and ratings/clicks) is something that the media will never ever say because it's bad for business in the same way they feel it was during Duncan's run. Hell, I still have yet to hear any media member go on record and say Jokic's career as a Nugget has passed Melo's(and his Knicks career).


I doubt the Nuggets win a 'chip this year but if they somehow do - the vast majority of folks would def call Jokic the best player in the game, so i think ur wrong about that part

he will be widely percieved and lauded as unquestionably the best in the league if he manages to win one with a recovering Murray and MPJ as his sidekicks
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1583 » by eyeatoma » Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:33 pm

CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1584 » by Duke4life831 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:52 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".

4


Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1585 » by Ron Swanson » Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:23 pm

Law of averages would suggest he'll eventually have a down season so I don't think we're ever gonna see a 4-5 straight MVP winner, but just for argument's sake, if Jokic falls short of the Finals or Conference Finals with a relatively healthy squad this season (along with the trend of his defensive metrics taking a sharp dip in the playoffs).....at what point do you consider the optics of giving him the award a 4th consecutive time?

I feel pretty confident in my eval process (I picked the eventual MVP winner at the half-way point each of the last 5 years), but even then I'd really have to start questioning whether we've become too rigid in our overall statistical analysis. And that goes beyond my underlying belief that player tracking and lineup data haven't actually improved our ability to quantify top-tier player impact (I think it's been much more beneficial in identifying role-player value/impact).
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1586 » by CobraCommander » Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:49 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".

4


Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.

No one Wants jokic to be in the same league as bird let alone in a league of his own
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1587 » by eyeatoma » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:23 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".

4


Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.


It just becomes farcical at that point. Especially if he doesn't win a chip, I would find it hilarious. Also that would put him at the level of Jordan, which we know he's not, although he's an incredible player.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1588 » by ty 4191 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:27 am

CobraCommander wrote:No one Wants jokic to be in the same league as bird let alone in a league of his own


He already is a better basketball player than Larry Bird ever was. His last 3 seasons proved it.

That's the (massive) problem for 1980's Nostalgics.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1589 » by Cavsfansince84 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:33 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.


Personally I don't see why it should be seen as weird at all if Jokic is the first to get 4 in a row. Does this mean he is automatically the greatest of all time? No, it just means he deserved to be mvp 4 years in a row. I don't see why it would bother anyone(most importantly the idiots who get votes for these awards) if he is the first guy to do it. It demeans what the award means when we have all these artificial criteria we have to add in to keep guys from getting it because of tradition or whatever other nonsense people want to throw in.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1590 » by LessEyeTest » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:49 am

The tears, oh the glorious tears. :D

The reality is that you cannot blame Jokic if he wins a 3rd and eventual 4th MVP. He's literally breaking the game of basketball!

As for holding him to the standard of needing to win a title to justify being the - by far - best basketball player on Earth? Puh-lease. The man has NEVER played with an all-star. He's pretty much only losing the the eventual champs and Finals participants each season despite dragging a group of injury prone cast offs to 50+ wins each year.

He's never had a James Harden or prime Ben Simmons. Hell, he's never had someone as good as Maxey! (Embiid)
He's never had a Jrue Holiday or Kris Middleton. (Giannis)
He's never had a Chris Paul or Deandre Ayton. (Booker)
He's never had a Anthony Davis. (LeBron)

These are the teams he's losing to and/or guys he's competing for MVPs with.

If he ever so much as had a legitimate 2nd option threat, the league would be f*****. Right now, he's a one man wrecking crew. And despite the love guys like Aaron Gordon are receiving, it's pretty evident ALL their success is due to Jokic.

He'll win the MVP pretty handily this season (should be unanimous barring clowns like Nick Wright voting), but even a 4th MVP isn't out of the question regardless of whether he wins a title or not because...the bolded.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1591 » by Cubbies2120 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:08 am

Ron Swanson wrote:Law of averages would suggest he'll eventually have a down season so I don't think we're ever gonna see a 4-5 straight MVP winner, but just for argument's sake, if Jokic falls short of the Finals or Conference Finals with a relatively healthy squad this season (along with the trend of his defensive metrics taking a sharp dip in the playoffs).....at what point do you consider the optics of giving him the award a 4th consecutive time?

I feel pretty confident in my eval process (I picked the eventual MVP winner at the half-way point each of the last 5 years), but even then I'd really have to start questioning whether we've become too rigid in our overall statistical analysis. And that goes beyond my underlying belief that player tracking and lineup data haven't actually improved our ability to quantify top-tier player impact (I think it's been much more beneficial in identifying role-player value/impact).


For arguments sake, what would you do if the following happened:

2023:Nuggets win 65 games, Jokic wins MVP, and his entire starting 5 (aside from him) gets injured in the first game of the playoffs, and it's him and the bench unit and they don't win it all.

Next year, the entire starting 5 is back and they win 73 games...and he puts up even better numbers. What do you side with?

Option 1: He didn't have playoff success the previous year (regardless of injuries)
Option 2: You look at context and don't blame him for something out of his control (significant injuries)
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1592 » by B-easy » Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:31 am

Have people forgetten Jokic one of the best playoff performers?

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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1593 » by playa-hater » Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:41 am

I'm sure 95% of posters don't even watch the games but if you were watching and so Orlando go on a 22 to 5 run when Tatum got hurt and went to the locker room have no idea of the impact the celtics have when Tatum is on and off the court.

People say Boston has a deep team but have no clue how it all gets glued together by the presence of Tatum offensively and defensively.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1594 » by MartyConlonOnTheRun » Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:21 am

eyeatoma wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".

4


Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.


It just becomes farcical at that point. Especially if he doesn't win a chip, I would find it hilarious. Also that would put him at the level of Jordan, which we know he's not, although he's an incredible player.

Obviously I take Jordan having the better career 100 out of a 100 times but Jordans playoff resume prior to his 27 age season isn't great. It's too early to blame a young player for not winning a ship before the age of 27. Isn't Giannis pretty much the only modern player to do that? I think Kobe the only other but he had Shaq?
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1595 » by Infinite Llamas » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:31 am

playa-hater wrote:I'm sure 95% of posters don't even watch the games but if you were watching and so Orlando go on a 22 to 5 run when Tatum got hurt and went to the locker room have no idea of the impact the celtics have when Tatum is on and off the court.

People say Boston has a deep team but have no clue how it all gets glued together by the presence of Tatum offensively and defensively.


Tatum gets points taken away for having Brown on his team. But if people actually watched Celtics games they would see how much of a low-bballIQ player that Brown truly is…how he dribbles the ball off his foot at least once a game…his inability to sometimes make the simplest of passes…his feel for the game is quite low. He’s just an athletic freak who can be a dynamic scorer at times, but is a fringe all star guy at best.

And I didn’t mean to turn this into a Brown bashing post, but whenever people cite Brown as the main reason that’s holding Tatum back, I instantly know they aren’t watching C’s games. Brown scores a lot of points but he also does a lot of dumb things to negate the good stuff. He is far from an ideal running mate for Tatum. Higher IQ players like Haliburton or KD would look a lot better in Browns place.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1596 » by nomansland » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:24 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".

4


Well, next year the bar will go up just like it did this year. Last year people were saying that there's no way Jokic is in the running unless he improves his stats and the Nuggets win the west. And so far that's happening. It's not really unfair.

Next year the bar for Jokic to win will be astronomically high. Something like all-time historically high stats on top of 65 wins while completely outpacing a bunch of other really good players. If he does it again and wins again (which won't happen), you can't really be mad.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1597 » by _NoMas » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:31 pm

Denver vs Philly on Saturday. This forum (specifically this MVP thread) is going to be the place to be!
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1598 » by yannisk » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:59 pm

LessEyeTest wrote:He's never had a Jrue Holiday or Kris Middleton. (Giannis)
He's never had a Chris Paul or Deandre Ayton. (Booker)

These are the teams he's losing to and/or guys he's competing for MVPs with.


Is Murray that much worse than these guys? He certainly has as good playoff numbers as any of them (before his injury)
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1599 » by eyeatoma » Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:20 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.


It just becomes farcical at that point. Especially if he doesn't win a chip, I would find it hilarious. Also that would put him at the level of Jordan, which we know he's not, although he's an incredible player.

Obviously I take Jordan having the better career 100 out of a 100 times but Jordans playoff resume prior to his 27 age season isn't great. It's too early to blame a young player for not winning a ship before the age of 27. Isn't Giannis pretty much the only modern player to do that? I think Kobe the only other but he had Shaq?



Jordan also didn't win 3 MVPs by that time, and he wouldn't have even if his team did well, because of playoff success.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1600 » by eyeatoma » Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:22 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.


It just becomes farcical at that point. Especially if he doesn't win a chip, I would find it hilarious. Also that would put him at the level of Jordan, which we know he's not, although he's an incredible player.

Obviously I take Jordan having the better career 100 out of a 100 times but Jordans playoff resume prior to his 27 age season isn't great. It's too early to blame a young player for not winning a ship before the age of 27. Isn't Giannis pretty much the only modern player to do that? I think Kobe the only other but he had Shaq?


I'm not blaming him for winning a chip. I'm blaming the media for fawning over someone so hard, that it's borderline obsessive. The dude is great, and he deserved atleast 1 of those MVPS, but at this point, it's just comical the lengths the media will go to prop him up, when the best they have had is a WCF birth.

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