NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

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Who is your current NBA MVP? (listed alphabetically)

Giannis Antetokounmpo
51
13%
Luka Doncic
70
18%
Kevin Durant
19
5%
Joel Embiid
25
6%
Nikola Jokic
167
42%
Donovan Mitchell
2
1%
Ja Morant
2
1%
Jayson Tatum
48
12%
Zion Williamson
5
1%
Other (Booker, Curry, Davis, SGA, etc.)
8
2%
 
Total votes: 397

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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1601 » by eyeatoma » Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:25 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".

4


Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.



There is generally a correlation between multi MVP level player and playoff success. By the time you get to 3, these players are in the top 15-20 of NBA history and all have won multiple chips. If the amazing lines don't translate to wins when it matters the most why should it be rewarded. And if he was so good in the regular season, why isn't he able to get those wins in the playoffs? He was able to in the regular season. Why is the planning so good in the playoffs that it can't carry over in the regular season to prevent the Nuggets from winning?
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1602 » by nomansland » Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:21 pm

yannisk wrote:
LessEyeTest wrote:He's never had a Jrue Holiday or Kris Middleton. (Giannis)
He's never had a Chris Paul or Deandre Ayton. (Booker)

These are the teams he's losing to and/or guys he's competing for MVPs with.


Is Murray that much worse than these guys? He certainly has as good playoff numbers as any of them (before his injury)


No he's not that much worse. People here kind of undersell him in order to further the MVP narrative but he's really good and will only get better as the season progresses. Every single year in the league (non-injury) he plays better in the 2nd half of the season.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1603 » by Exp0sed » Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:42 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".

4


Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.



There is generally a correlation between multi MVP level player and playoff success. By the time you get to 3, these players are in the top 15-20 of NBA history and all have won multiple chips. If the amazing lines don't translate to wins when it matters the most why should it be rewarded. And if he was so good in the regular season, why isn't he able to get those wins in the playoffs? He was able to in the regular season. Why is the planning so good in the playoffs that it can't carry over in the regular season to prevent the Nuggets from winning?


you keep arguing the same arguments and force us to go in circles :)

How many rings would Bird have won playing with Barton, Morris and AG?
How many rings would Bird have with Murray as his #2?

Let's do a thought experiment:

You are arguing that because a 3 peat is so rare etc it's only reserved for champions (or something along those lines)
LBJ won his first MVP 08/09 followed by his 2nd MVP

the same guys arguing that Jokic shouldn't have won are the same guys that argue that LBJ got robbed by Rose

Do u think LBJ should have won that 3rd MVP? because if he had, he would have 3 peated with no rings :P
the same thing that ur claiming should be impossible to do (in reality there is no logic or law prohibiting it, it just hasn't happened yet because the circumustences haven't presented themselves - and now they have)

Rose Wins in and in the playoffs the Heat's superteam manage to lose to Dirk
LBJ still wins his 3rd MVP the very next season!

shouldn't this failure to win mattered to voters back then? according to your criteria i believe that to be the case

sure he reached the Finals, but do u really doubt Jokic would have made the finals with Wade and Bosh instead of Murray and rookie MPJ?

I really wanna know
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1604 » by Infinite Llamas » Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:47 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".

4


Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.



There is generally a correlation between multi MVP level player and playoff success. By the time you get to 3, these players are in the top 15-20 of NBA history and all have won multiple chips. If the amazing lines don't translate to wins when it matters the most why should it be rewarded. And if he was so good in the regular season, why isn't he able to get those wins in the playoffs? He was able to in the regular season. Why is the planning so good in the playoffs that it can't carry over in the regular season to prevent the Nuggets from winning?


You can be the best player but not be on the best team. It’s really quite as simple as that.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1605 » by Cubbies2120 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:17 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
This has always been my point. With the way advanced stats are, and how good Jokic is, what is to stop the media from awarding him the award every year.

People thought he wouldn't win it again this year, but he got better according to the " advanced stats".

4


Honest question, what if he deserves it 4 years in a row? Do we just not give him the award because it would be weird to say Jokic is a 3x in a row or 1st ever 4x in a row MVP winner? Again I just see no issue with giving someone an award if they deserve it.



There is generally a correlation between multi MVP level player and playoff success. By the time you get to 3, these players are in the top 15-20 of NBA history and all have won multiple chips. If the amazing lines don't translate to wins when it matters the most why should it be rewarded. And if he was so good in the regular season, why isn't he able to get those wins in the playoffs? He was able to in the regular season. Why is the planning so good in the playoffs that it can't carry over in the regular season to prevent the Nuggets from winning?


Uhh, two max players missing from a team generally hinder playoff success...?

Which runner up in the playoffs in any of the last, say, 30 years could you do the following to:

1. Match them up against the NBA champions or the best team in the conference
2. Remove their #2 and #3 player
3. Expect a series win

Even looking at the historical precedent, lets just look at the players who won MVP 3x - what season could you remove the #2 and #3 and expect them to win it all?

If you need someone to explain to you the difference between playoff and regular season intensity, I don't know what to tell you.

Why did the Sixers beat the Hawks by 44, 22 in the 2021 regular season yet get bounced by a team that couldn't make it to the Finals? Was it planning? What do you think it was? Does something change in the playoffs when teams can focus entirely on gameplanning for one team (or one person, if half the starting lineup is out)?
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1606 » by DonaldSanders » Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:14 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
There is generally a correlation between multi MVP level player and playoff success. By the time you get to 3, these players are in the top 15-20 of NBA history and all have won multiple chips. If the amazing lines don't translate to wins when it matters the most why should it be rewarded. And if he was so good in the regular season, why isn't he able to get those wins in the playoffs? He was able to in the regular season. Why is the planning so good in the playoffs that it can't carry over in the regular season to prevent the Nuggets from winning?



I get what you are saying, Jokic will need playoff success to get true respect. It has to happen or people won't care about his MVPs as much. But people need to just realize, especially in the modern NBA, that the regular season is the least like the post season it has ever been. From load management to refereeing to team efforts, the playoffs have never been more different.

If Jokic deserves the regular season MVP, give it to him. What we really need to do is to change the rules so that we get games more similar to the playoffs in terms of being allowed to actually play defense, get rid of b2bs so stars are playing more, etc.

I think Jokic will eventually get some post-season success so this talk will seem a bit silly, but the RS has become something I just care less about.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1607 » by CharityStripe34 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:32 pm

CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


One of the other candidates (i.e. Gianni, Durant, Tatum) going on a ridiculous statistical tear in the second half and their teams finishing in a dominant fashion (Top 2 seed at worst). Not saying it necessarily prevents another Jokic MVP, but it'll make it an all-time type of MVP race.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1608 » by CobraCommander » Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:56 pm

CharityStripe34 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


One of the other candidates (i.e. Gianni, Durant, Tatum) going on a ridiculous statistical tear in the second half and their teams finishing in a dominant fashion (Top 2 seed at worst). Not saying it necessarily prevents another Jokic MVP, but it'll make it an all-time type of MVP race.

They have 2 months to catch him- but if he doesn’t get hurt I don’t see how they catch him. He is simply playing boringly efficient Tim Duncan/CP3 type ball… makea the right play look routine and makes the amazing play look routine - it’s just boring as hell but effective
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1609 » by CharityStripe34 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:01 pm

CobraCommander wrote:
CharityStripe34 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


One of the other candidates (i.e. Gianni, Durant, Tatum) going on a ridiculous statistical tear in the second half and their teams finishing in a dominant fashion (Top 2 seed at worst). Not saying it necessarily prevents another Jokic MVP, but it'll make it an all-time type of MVP race.

They have 2 months to catch him- but if he doesn’t get hurt I don’t see how they catch him. He is simply playing boringly efficient Tim Duncan/CP3 type ball… makea the right play look routine and makes the amazing play look routine - it’s just boring as hell but effective


If he stays healthy and stops load-managing/missing games, I give Gianni a fair chance at going on a big-time tear. Especially if Middleton stays on the court, looks solid and the Bucks start going on some winning streaks. He's the only other player in the last few seasons who's statistically similar to Jokic and has an incredibly high defensive ceiling to boot.

I'm not predicting that will happen, as it seems that he's been clearly trying to pace himself and the Bucks have been sitting him more often. Just that he's capable and it would make for an incredible MVP race given that both he and Jokic are considered by many the two best players alive.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1610 » by CobraCommander » Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:52 pm

CharityStripe34 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:
CharityStripe34 wrote:
One of the other candidates (i.e. Gianni, Durant, Tatum) going on a ridiculous statistical tear in the second half and their teams finishing in a dominant fashion (Top 2 seed at worst). Not saying it necessarily prevents another Jokic MVP, but it'll make it an all-time type of MVP race.

They have 2 months to catch him- but if he doesn’t get hurt I don’t see how they catch him. He is simply playing boringly efficient Tim Duncan/CP3 type ball… makea the right play look routine and makes the amazing play look routine - it’s just boring as hell but effective


If he stays healthy and stops load-managing/missing games, I give Gianni a fair chance at going on a big-time tear. Especially if Middleton stays on the court, looks solid and the Bucks start going on some winning streaks. He's the only other player in the last few seasons who's statistically similar to Jokic and has an incredibly high defensive ceiling to boot.

I'm not predicting that will happen, as it seems that he's been clearly trying to pace himself and the Bucks have been sitting him more often. Just that he's capable and it would make for an incredible MVP race given that both he and Jokic are considered by many the two best players alive.

Fair- but I think Giannis is over the MVP thing- I think he only cares about rings at this point -

and if you think about it, Giannis is right. If Giannis gets 3 or 4 rings and only 2 MVPs he can make a top 10
All time case. If jokic gets 4 MVPs in a row and no rings he is going to be considered less favorable long term than Giannis. Man but we talking about a new golden age with the potential of two (maybe more)all time greats approaching their prime.:. !
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1611 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:04 pm

CobraCommander wrote:
CharityStripe34 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:They have 2 months to catch him- but if he doesn’t get hurt I don’t see how they catch him. He is simply playing boringly efficient Tim Duncan/CP3 type ball… makea the right play look routine and makes the amazing play look routine - it’s just boring as hell but effective


If he stays healthy and stops load-managing/missing games, I give Gianni a fair chance at going on a big-time tear. Especially if Middleton stays on the court, looks solid and the Bucks start going on some winning streaks. He's the only other player in the last few seasons who's statistically similar to Jokic and has an incredibly high defensive ceiling to boot.

I'm not predicting that will happen, as it seems that he's been clearly trying to pace himself and the Bucks have been sitting him more often. Just that he's capable and it would make for an incredible MVP race given that both he and Jokic are considered by many the two best players alive.

Fair- but I think Giannis is over the MVP thing- I think he only cares about rings at this point -

and if you think about it, Giannis is right. If Giannis gets 3 or 4 rings and only 2 MVPs he can make a top 10
All time case. If jokic gets 4 MVPs in a row and no rings he is going to be considered less favorable long term than Giannis. Man but we talking about a new golden age with the potential of two (maybe more)all time greats approaching their prime.:. !


And this is usually the thing that prevents guys from winning 7-10 MVPs in their career. The whole "LeBron shouldve won 4-5 more MVP" thing has been broken down so much. Really the only MVP LeBron has an argument for is the Rose one, and even then he wasnt even 2nd in voting. But all the other ones, it became crystal clear. LeBron began coasting during large sections of the regular season. Now LeBron coasting was still easily a lock to be All NBA 1st team and all that. But he wasnt putting up MVP seasons.

I think Giannis is at that point in his career as well. Dude understands that he cant go full board on both ends of the ball all season long and have deep playoff run after deep playoff run every year. I also wont be shocked if we see this with Jokic after this year. I wont be shocked if he doesnt begin to coast more during the regular season to make sure he is 100% by the time the playoffs come around.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1612 » by p0peye » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:33 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:
CharityStripe34 wrote:I think Giannis is at that point in his career as well. Dude understands that he cant go full board on both ends of the ball all season long and have deep playoff run after deep playoff run every year. I also wont be shocked if we see this with Jokic after this year. I wont be shocked if he doesnt begin to coast more during the regular season to make sure he is 100% by the time the playoffs come around.


Arguably it is already happening with Jokić too. He is deferring and missing games, not sure if all of them are due to illness or some have been load management.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1613 » by brettski » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:36 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:
CharityStripe34 wrote:
If he stays healthy and stops load-managing/missing games, I give Gianni a fair chance at going on a big-time tear. Especially if Middleton stays on the court, looks solid and the Bucks start going on some winning streaks. He's the only other player in the last few seasons who's statistically similar to Jokic and has an incredibly high defensive ceiling to boot.

I'm not predicting that will happen, as it seems that he's been clearly trying to pace himself and the Bucks have been sitting him more often. Just that he's capable and it would make for an incredible MVP race given that both he and Jokic are considered by many the two best players alive.

Fair- but I think Giannis is over the MVP thing- I think he only cares about rings at this point -

and if you think about it, Giannis is right. If Giannis gets 3 or 4 rings and only 2 MVPs he can make a top 10
All time case. If jokic gets 4 MVPs in a row and no rings he is going to be considered less favorable long term than Giannis. Man but we talking about a new golden age with the potential of two (maybe more)all time greats approaching their prime.:. !


And this is usually the thing that prevents guys from winning 7-10 MVPs in their career. The whole "LeBron shouldve won 4-5 more MVP" thing has been broken down so much. Really the only MVP LeBron has an argument for is the Rose one, and even then he wasnt even 2nd in voting. But all the other ones, it became crystal clear. LeBron began coasting during large sections of the regular season. Now LeBron coasting was still easily a lock to be All NBA 1st team and all that. But he wasnt putting up MVP seasons.

I think Giannis is at that point in his career as well. Dude understands that he cant go full board on both ends of the ball all season long and have deep playoff run after deep playoff run every year. I also wont be shocked if we see this with Jokic after this year. I wont be shocked if he doesnt begin to coast more during the regular season to make sure he is 100% by the time the playoffs come around.


I don't think its just that he doesn't care about MVP. I think Giannis is genuinely suffering day to day pain in the knee he injured vs the Hawks and then came back from the finals in like 10 days?? I think that is a permanent thing (not helped by playing for Greece instead of resting the knee) that requires load managing to the point where he simply won't play enough games for the Bucks to be a 60 win team. He'll also as a result always be on the wrong side of the "Well Jokic and Giannis had similar stats but Jokic played 10 more games" type conversation. I think those things combined really just sold him on the rings being the only possible outcome to go for. Plus I'd wager almost every NBA star would favour the ring over the MVP.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1614 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:37 pm

p0peye wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:


Arguably it is already happening with Jokić too. He is deferring and missing games, not sure if all of them are due to illness or some have been load management.


Oh agreed. I dont think Jokic is anymore banged up then he has been in past regular seasons. The big difference this year, they aint fighting for 1st round homecourt or to not be in the play-in. Hell theyve got a 2 game lead for 1st place in the West at the moment. I think if Denver were in say 8th or 9th in the West right now, we wouldnt be seeing these missed games by Jokic.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1615 » by LessEyeTest » Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:55 am

The usual suspects arguing against Jokic are now invoking advanced stats as a problem. I mean, after all, the case for Embiid is purely based on raw averages (and ignoring the fact that he's not reliable in terms of Games Played).

See, the thing is advanced stats are very closely correlated with player greatness. The best players of all-time had amazing WS, BPM, VORP, etc. You can look up anyone - MJ, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, etc. and you'll see they were at or near the top of the metrics year-in, year-out.

On the other hand, the raw averages can be deceptive. Ricky Davis put up a 20, 5, and 5 season and yet registered as a below average player that season in every way possible. Raw averages, and per minute averages especially, are the truly deceptive ways to gauge player greatness.

There is literally no argument you can make against Jokic this year. He's finally got an okay roster around him with people relatively healthy (but still 0 all-star teammates), he's improved on his past two MVP seasons, and he's at the top of the standings.

Yet, some clowns will literally denounce Jokic as an MVP because God forbid he be in rarified air with Bird, Wilt, and Russell as the only guys to win 3x in a row.

Face it, he's the best player in the league and also the MVP.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1616 » by LessEyeTest » Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:16 am

Jokic with the game winner, again. Is there anything this man cannot do?!
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1617 » by Statlanta » Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:44 am

LessEyeTest wrote:Jokic with the game winner, again. Is there anything this man cannot do?!

Average 30 points per game in a month.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1618 » by Jurassic_Park » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:13 am

Good day for Jokic…. Tatum loses, Doncic loses. Marquee matchup tomorrow Jokic vs Giannis
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1619 » by HotRocks34 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:49 am

If the Nuggets have the best record in the league or are tied for it, and Jokic stays healthy, then:

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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1620 » by Infinite Llamas » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:09 am

Statlanta wrote:
LessEyeTest wrote:Jokic with the game winner, again. Is there anything this man cannot do?!

Average 30 points per game in a month.


Last year in 15 games for March, he averaged 29.9. Close enough?
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