NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

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Who is your current NBA MVP? (listed alphabetically)

Giannis Antetokounmpo
51
13%
Luka Doncic
70
18%
Kevin Durant
19
5%
Joel Embiid
25
6%
Nikola Jokic
167
42%
Donovan Mitchell
2
1%
Ja Morant
2
1%
Jayson Tatum
48
12%
Zion Williamson
5
1%
Other (Booker, Curry, Davis, SGA, etc.)
8
2%
 
Total votes: 397

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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1661 » by AleksandarN » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:44 pm

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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1662 » by Bostondave » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:56 pm

Ok and that's another thing I don't get with fans. If you're a fan of a team why do you care so so deeply that one of your gauys gets MVP? What is that going to do with getting your team a ring? Other than tangentially. But realistically an MVP doesn't give you extra points or extra wins. So I don't get all these fans getting so hot about their favorite player getting the MVP nod. It's not going to get you a ring by itself. If anything it makes it harder for your team because all it means is that player's agent is going to ask for an extra mil or two because of that award. So it makes no sense to me, unless you're a fan of that particular player.

In all my years of Celtics fandom I can't think of any player I loved THAT much. Going back to Cowens, I loved him. I loved McHale. Bird gained my respect. But even when he was getting his MVP's it was something that I heard and saw but didn't really register. OK, Bird, MVP, now lets get a goddamn ring. It went in one side and out of the other.

So I'm flummoxxed at these C's fan who seem so personally invested in Tatum getting MVP. I mean really? So what? What's it mean for the team? That's my overriding concern. Rings. I'm championship driven above and beyond anything else. Anything else is worthless distraction. Meaningless. I want the ring.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1663 » by bradybunch » Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:19 pm

Luka's Mavs are simply not good enough.

Jokic and Tatum will battle it out.

Tatum may get it due to fatigue.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1664 » by rocketsfan100 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:26 pm

At this point Jokic is the favorite
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1665 » by Duke4life831 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:07 pm

Ill repeat what I said like a week or two ago. I think Jokic is closer to being the unanimous MVP at the moment than anyone else is to competing with Jokic for MVP. The dude is 5 assists shy of officially being at a 25pt triple double, and he is just 1 point away (if he had made just 1 missed FT in the season so far) from officially being at 70 TS%. And Denver is just .5 game out from having the best record in the league. This is truly ridiculous.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1666 » by nomansland » Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:34 pm

Bostondave wrote:Ok and that's another thing I don't get with fans. If you're a fan of a team why do you care so so deeply that one of your gauys gets MVP? What is that going to do with getting your team a ring? Other than tangentially. But realistically an MVP doesn't give you extra points or extra wins. So I don't get all these fans getting so hot about their favorite player getting the MVP nod. It's not going to get you a ring by itself. If anything it makes it harder for your team because all it means is that player's agent is going to ask for an extra mil or two because of that award. So it makes no sense to me, unless you're a fan of that particular player.

In all my years of Celtics fandom I can't think of any player I loved THAT much. Going back to Cowens, I loved him. I loved McHale. Bird gained my respect. But even when he was getting his MVP's it was something that I heard and saw but didn't really register. OK, Bird, MVP, now lets get a goddamn ring. It went in one side and out of the other.

So I'm flummoxxed at these C's fan who seem so personally invested in Tatum getting MVP. I mean really? So what? What's it mean for the team? That's my overriding concern. Rings. I'm championship driven above and beyond anything else. Anything else is worthless distraction. Meaningless. I want the ring.


I don't care that much as a Nuggets fan. I'd much rather see a championship. But when you're a fan of the Nuggets, who haven't ever even been to a finals, or a Serbian fan who doesn't get to enjoy stardom in the NBA so much, I can see why people like accolades like the MVP.

We'll take what we can get.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1667 » by ty 4191 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:19 pm

Bostondave wrote:Rings. I'm championship driven above and beyond anything else. Anything else is worthless distraction. Meaningless. I want the ring.


Using "Rings" as the sole barometer of player value and greatness is facile and specious.

Here's my counter argument to the "RINGZZ" premise and stance.

I'll just keep posting this as long as people keep espousing that team championships are the sole determinant of all time great status.

Jordan didn't win anything until they built a tremendous team around him. Neither did Wilt, nor Robertson, nor has Jokic, nor did Garnett:

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:
-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs those 4 years.

Kevin Garnett through age 27, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 17-30
-Team Series Record: 2-8
-7 first round exits
-1 WCF

Garnett's line: 23.3/13.4/5.0. 2nd in Defensive Rating in the playoffs, those years, among players with 2000 MP. RAPM ranks him as the second most impactful player of 2002-2007 period, overall, in the NBA.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible to today's. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics.

Oscar Robertson through age 31, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (39 games)
-Team Record: 15-24
-Team Series Record: 2-6
-4 first round exits
-2 EDF

Oscar's playoff line: 29.7/9.3/9.4 on an astounding +8.2 rTS%. Clearly, a top 2-3 player overall in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics. He had 8 triple doubles in those 39 games, and that's when the assist rule precluded assists if the player receiving the ball dribbled before he took the shot. Much harder to get assists back then vs. today.

So the point is: What did Michael Jordan win before they built a tremendous team around him, while also bringing in quite arguably the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Were these guys all losers, or, did they have subpar or even "bad" teams around them?

Maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1668 » by velkisimo » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:00 am

ty 4191 wrote:
Bostondave wrote:Rings. I'm championship driven above and beyond anything else. Anything else is worthless distraction. Meaningless. I want the ring.


Using "Rings" as the sole barometer of player value and greatness is facile and specious.

Here's my counter argument to the "RINGZZ" premise and stance.

I'll just keep posting this as long as people keep espousing that team championships are the sole determinant of all time great status.

Jordan didn't win anything until they built a tremendous team around him. Neither did Wilt, nor Robertson, nor has Jokic, nor did Garnett:

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:
-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs those 4 years.

Kevin Garnett through age 27, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 17-30
-Team Series Record: 2-8
-7 first round exits
-1 WCF

Garnett's line: 23.3/13.4/5.0. 2nd in Defensive Rating in the playoffs, those years, among players with 2000 MP. RAPM ranks him as the second most impactful player of 2002-2007 period, overall, in the NBA.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible to today's. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics.

Oscar Robertson through age 31, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (39 games)
-Team Record: 15-24
-Team Series Record: 2-6
-4 first round exits
-2 EDF

Oscar's playoff line: 29.7/9.3/9.4 on an astounding +8.2 rTS%. Clearly, a top 2-3 player overall in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics. He had 8 triple doubles in those 39 games, and that's when the assist rule precluded assists if the player receiving the ball dribbled before he took the shot. Much harder to get assists back then vs. today.

So the point is: What did Michael Jordan win before they built a tremendous team around him, while also bringing in quite arguably the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Were these guys all losers, or, did they have subpar or even "bad" teams around them?

Maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

That's a lot of words just to come to the same conclusion that its the team that matters lol. That's all he is saying. Team first, personal accolades second.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1669 » by ty 4191 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:11 am

NBA MVP Odds Today (Draftkings):

Jokic: -140 (5/7 Odds)
Doncic: +425
Tatum: +700
Embiid: +800
Giannis: +1300
Morant: +3000
Durant: +3500
Curry: +4000
Mitchell: +7000
LeBron: +10000
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1670 » by Cubbies2120 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:24 am

Exp0sed wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
Exp0sed wrote:

So the line to me implies the books have Jokic out (or are anticipating Murray out maybe).


Denver was even money away at Nola (without BI and Zion obviously) yesterday
that's without MPJ and by ur logic - with the bookies expecting Jokic to play

Murray perhaps, but you do realize that playing the Bucks at full strength on their home floor is one of the toughest games of the season for any team and on a back to back at that? 7.5 spread seems reasonable with Jokic

without Jokic and MPJ on a back to back at Bucks it'd be -15 :)

more to the point, Denver wasn't in some huge rush to play Jokic yesterday
If he was healthy enough to play yesterday and everything went fine he should be ready to go again today

we'll wait and see, imo he'll play

it's awesome actually, because every coddled star would take his rest, trying to avoid playing a tough game like the Bucks , try protect their stats, their bodies and get much needed rest in the process but I suspect the Joker is different

the Joker will play and take the beating and most likely take the L too - but he'll compete if healthy
he's an oldschool ball player, if it's game night and he's healthy he'd always prefer to play


Denver was +1.5 yesterday but when it was declared that Jokic is playing moved to -3

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/odds/denver-nuggets

And behold, Jokic is out...WHO COULD HAVE PREDICTED THAT?
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1671 » by bradybunch » Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:21 am

Welp... Jokic misses another game.

Yikes.

Maybe Embiid can win it!
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1672 » by SOA » Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:02 am

Why is Jokic missing another game?
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1673 » by ty 4191 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:29 am

SOA wrote:Why is Jokic missing another game?


Tight left hamstring (injury management).
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1674 » by SOA » Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:37 am

ty 4191 wrote:
SOA wrote:Why is Jokic missing another game?


Tight left hamstring (injury management).


Load management strikes again. One of the major reasons why the regular season is so boring. Can't expect any superstar to play 70+ games nowadays. Even Jokic is succumbing to it. I thought he was a different breed. I guess I was mistaken.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1675 » by Peregrine01 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:31 am

SOA wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
SOA wrote:Why is Jokic missing another game?


Tight left hamstring (injury management).


Load management strikes again. One of the major reasons why the regular season is so boring. Can't expect any superstar to play 70+ games nowadays. Even Jokic is succumbing to it. I thought he was a different breed. I guess I was mistaken.


This injury dates back to last year's playoffs when Jokic had to play nearly every game in the regular season just to drag the Nuggets to the 6th seed.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1676 » by Decipher » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:14 am

Short Embiid as that game wasn't good

Completely outplayed by direct opponent
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1677 » by GeorgeSears » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:18 am

Jokic missing games might make this interesting. Embiid has missed 12, and will likely miss more. Jokic has missed 7 (3 due to Covid protocol, 4 due to load management). Giannis has missed 11. Tatum has only missed 3...
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1678 » by Inspektor1312 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:12 pm

SOA wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
SOA wrote:Why is Jokic missing another game?


Tight left hamstring (injury management).


Load management strikes again. One of the major reasons why the regular season is so boring. Can't expect any superstar to play 70+ games nowadays. Even Jokic is succumbing to it. I thought he was a different breed. I guess I was mistaken.


Honestly, the Nuggets would be stupid not to rest him occasionally since everybody else is doing that, and they're finally all healthy so it won't cost the team much in terms of seeding.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1679 » by _NoMas » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:17 pm

GeorgeSears wrote:Jokic missing games might make this interesting. Embiid has missed 12, and will likely miss more. Jokic has missed 7 (3 due to Covid protocol, 4 due to load management). Giannis has missed 11. Tatum has only missed 3...


Agreed. if Jokic goes into double figures in games missed and Tatum continues playing, winning, and performing at an elite level… he deserves MVP
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1680 » by BelgradeNugget » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:26 pm

As Nuggets fan I would trade 2 MVPs for 1 championship.

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