Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:44 pm
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Bostondave wrote:Ok and that's another thing I don't get with fans. If you're a fan of a team why do you care so so deeply that one of your gauys gets MVP? What is that going to do with getting your team a ring? Other than tangentially. But realistically an MVP doesn't give you extra points or extra wins. So I don't get all these fans getting so hot about their favorite player getting the MVP nod. It's not going to get you a ring by itself. If anything it makes it harder for your team because all it means is that player's agent is going to ask for an extra mil or two because of that award. So it makes no sense to me, unless you're a fan of that particular player.
In all my years of Celtics fandom I can't think of any player I loved THAT much. Going back to Cowens, I loved him. I loved McHale. Bird gained my respect. But even when he was getting his MVP's it was something that I heard and saw but didn't really register. OK, Bird, MVP, now lets get a goddamn ring. It went in one side and out of the other.
So I'm flummoxxed at these C's fan who seem so personally invested in Tatum getting MVP. I mean really? So what? What's it mean for the team? That's my overriding concern. Rings. I'm championship driven above and beyond anything else. Anything else is worthless distraction. Meaningless. I want the ring.
Bostondave wrote:Rings. I'm championship driven above and beyond anything else. Anything else is worthless distraction. Meaningless. I want the ring.
ty 4191 wrote:Bostondave wrote:Rings. I'm championship driven above and beyond anything else. Anything else is worthless distraction. Meaningless. I want the ring.
Using "Rings" as the sole barometer of player value and greatness is facile and specious.
Here's my counter argument to the "RINGZZ" premise and stance.
I'll just keep posting this as long as people keep espousing that team championships are the sole determinant of all time great status.
Jordan didn't win anything until they built a tremendous team around him. Neither did Wilt, nor Robertson, nor has Jokic, nor did Garnett:
Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:
-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF
Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.
Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF
Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs those 4 years.
Kevin Garnett through age 27, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 17-30
-Team Series Record: 2-8
-7 first round exits
-1 WCF
Garnett's line: 23.3/13.4/5.0. 2nd in Defensive Rating in the playoffs, those years, among players with 2000 MP. RAPM ranks him as the second most impactful player of 2002-2007 period, overall, in the NBA.
Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible to today's. Still:
Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics.
Oscar Robertson through age 31, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (39 games)
-Team Record: 15-24
-Team Series Record: 2-6
-4 first round exits
-2 EDF
Oscar's playoff line: 29.7/9.3/9.4 on an astounding +8.2 rTS%. Clearly, a top 2-3 player overall in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics. He had 8 triple doubles in those 39 games, and that's when the assist rule precluded assists if the player receiving the ball dribbled before he took the shot. Much harder to get assists back then vs. today.
So the point is: What did Michael Jordan win before they built a tremendous team around him, while also bringing in quite arguably the greatest coach of all time?
What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?
Were these guys all losers, or, did they have subpar or even "bad" teams around them?
Maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?
Exp0sed wrote:Cubbies2120 wrote:Exp0sed wrote:
So the line to me implies the books have Jokic out (or are anticipating Murray out maybe).
Denver was even money away at Nola (without BI and Zion obviously) yesterday
that's without MPJ and by ur logic - with the bookies expecting Jokic to play
Murray perhaps, but you do realize that playing the Bucks at full strength on their home floor is one of the toughest games of the season for any team and on a back to back at that? 7.5 spread seems reasonable with Jokic
without Jokic and MPJ on a back to back at Bucks it'd be -15
more to the point, Denver wasn't in some huge rush to play Jokic yesterday
If he was healthy enough to play yesterday and everything went fine he should be ready to go again today
we'll wait and see, imo he'll play
it's awesome actually, because every coddled star would take his rest, trying to avoid playing a tough game like the Bucks , try protect their stats, their bodies and get much needed rest in the process but I suspect the Joker is different
the Joker will play and take the beating and most likely take the L too - but he'll compete if healthy
he's an oldschool ball player, if it's game night and he's healthy he'd always prefer to play
SOA wrote:Why is Jokic missing another game?
ty 4191 wrote:SOA wrote:Why is Jokic missing another game?
Tight left hamstring (injury management).
SOA wrote:ty 4191 wrote:SOA wrote:Why is Jokic missing another game?
Tight left hamstring (injury management).
Load management strikes again. One of the major reasons why the regular season is so boring. Can't expect any superstar to play 70+ games nowadays. Even Jokic is succumbing to it. I thought he was a different breed. I guess I was mistaken.
SOA wrote:ty 4191 wrote:SOA wrote:Why is Jokic missing another game?
Tight left hamstring (injury management).
Load management strikes again. One of the major reasons why the regular season is so boring. Can't expect any superstar to play 70+ games nowadays. Even Jokic is succumbing to it. I thought he was a different breed. I guess I was mistaken.
GeorgeSears wrote:Jokic missing games might make this interesting. Embiid has missed 12, and will likely miss more. Jokic has missed 7 (3 due to Covid protocol, 4 due to load management). Giannis has missed 11. Tatum has only missed 3...