LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special

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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#261 » by Mephariel » Wed Feb 1, 2023 7:23 am

metafisical wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
metafisical wrote:
Possibly. Karl is definitely up there since he dominated in several individual all-time categories (e.g., points, REBs, blocks). Same for MJ, KAJ, John Stockton and Lebron.

To me, if we talk about GOAT, individual stats mean more to me than championships. GOAT is an individual accomplishment (selfish or not).

While both stats and championships require good teammates, the latter relies more on the players around you (i.e., tea.). If there were something called the greatest team of all time, then I would of course value championships much more over individual stats.

But of course, this is my personal view. Everyone is free to criticize.



Well your opinion of course but legends are made in the playoffs and specifically the nba finals. If the Mavs get bounced early in the playoffs do you think people will really remember Luka averaging 34/9/9 20 years from now? Curry was great last year, but his play in the finals will be remembered forever. Stars are made in the bright lights.


I can't disagree with you. There definitely is something for exceptional playoff performances. However, people would remember Luka (in your example) if he were to maintain that over two decades, wouldn't they?


Not if he doesn't win. Do you think Tom Brady would be considered the greatest if he has only 1 Super Bowl title instead of 7?
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#262 » by Mephariel » Wed Feb 1, 2023 7:26 am

Potential_64 wrote:It's fitting that everyone's talking about LeBron's "legendary" stats while the Lakers are 23-28. LeBron has always been more about selling LeBron than the franchise he plays for


He won 4 championships and won a ring for each of the franchises he played for. He led his team to 8 consecutive Finals. He cares about winning for the franchise.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#263 » by lonzo_pelota » Wed Feb 1, 2023 7:46 am

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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#264 » by RRR3 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 8:26 am

The Lakers before today were -7.7 with LeBron off the court per 100 possessions. With him on that number was +3.1. And he just was a +22 in a game they only won by 6. And people seriously think it's his fault his team is bad?
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#265 » by lambchop » Wed Feb 1, 2023 8:31 am

Vox Populi wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
metafisical wrote:
Yes.



Just some info on Jabbar, he was much maligned in the press due to his religious beliefs. However, he got both six (6) Championships and all-time records.

Yet Michael is still considered by purist, as the Goat over both, without any further numbers, or trophies required.

It is because of how MJ played. He was dominant by himself. Kareem needed Magic and Oscar, great point guards, to run the team for him. He did not win a single ring between leaving Oscar and getting Magic. Lebron is greater than Kareem but Lebron needs floor-spacers around him because he does not have MJ's level of individual skill to get past defenders one-on-one. He is not a great shooter either. MJ just needed competence around him.

MJ has proved it too, by winning as much as Kareem and more than Lebron, in less years than both. He was also MVP + DPOTY + Scoring Champion all in the same season. 6 finals, 6 rings, 6 FMVPS. 10-time scoring champion for a guard, in a time when the playing environment did not favor Guards as much as Bigs. Who can compare to all this? There is nobody.


I think aesthetics also play a role in GOAT evaluations. Kareem's game simply wasn't as aesthetically pleasing to most. Imagine a new player comes into the league. He averages 35 ppg and ends up in the 60/60/90 club. However, 80% of his shots are threes and they are all hook shots off the backboard. He shoots with a low arch which means that the ball hits the backboard pretty hard. He also has unlimited range and shoots those hooks with either hand. He shoots all of his free throws underhanded and one of his signature moves is this shot right here, but he shoots it off the dribble and can even shoot it from three.



He ends up winning 6 rings. I really doubt he'd ever be considered the GOAT and people would reluctantly put him in their top players list.

Also, passing usually doesn't move the needle or actually hurts players in head to head comparisons. Imagine a tight game 7 of a playoff series. Final two minutes:

Player A: scores 12 straight points, including the game winning shot to lead his team to victory.

Player B: Gets 6 straight assists all for layups and dunks, including the game winning uncontested dunk to lead his team to victory.

Player A will always be considered the superior player.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#266 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Wed Feb 1, 2023 9:32 am

RRR3 wrote:The Lakers before today were -7.7 with LeBron off the court per 100 possessions. With him on that number was +3.1. And he just was a +22 in a game they only won by 6. And people seriously think it's his fault his team is bad?


People believe Westbrook is some sort of 6moty candidate off the bench. Who knows what kind of insane beliefs people have and why.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#267 » by Evolution999 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 11:03 am

Westbrook ALL-STAR and 6MOTY. King gotta eat dem apples.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#268 » by MavsDirk41 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 3:09 pm

metafisical wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
metafisical wrote:
Possibly. Karl is definitely up there since he dominated in several individual all-time categories (e.g., points, REBs, blocks). Same for MJ, KAJ, John Stockton and Lebron.

To me, if we talk about GOAT, individual stats mean more to me than championships. GOAT is an individual accomplishment (selfish or not).

While both stats and championships require good teammates, the latter relies more on the players around you (i.e., tea.). If there were something called the greatest team of all time, then I would of course value championships much more over individual stats.

But of course, this is my personal view. Everyone is free to criticize.



Well your opinion of course but legends are made in the playoffs and specifically the nba finals. If the Mavs get bounced early in the playoffs do you think people will really remember Luka averaging 34/9/9 20 years from now? Curry was great last year, but his play in the finals will be remembered forever. Stars are made in the bright lights.


I can't disagree with you. There definitely is something for exceptional playoff performances. However, people would remember Luka (in your example) if he were to maintain that over two decades, wouldn't they?



If Dirk didnt win that championship in 2011, he wouldnt have the same legacy that he has today. If Luka doesnt win a championship as the best player on his team, he will be considered a great player who couldnt win it all. Stats are nice, but greatness is defined by championships.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#269 » by MavsDirk41 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 3:11 pm

RRR3 wrote:The Lakers before today were -7.7 with LeBron off the court per 100 possessions. With him on that number was +3.1. And he just was a +22 in a game they only won by 6. And people seriously think it's his fault his team is bad?



Who wanted Davis and Westbrook??
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#270 » by MavsDirk41 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 3:14 pm

lambchop wrote:
Vox Populi wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:

Just some info on Jabbar, he was much maligned in the press due to his religious beliefs. However, he got both six (6) Championships and all-time records.

Yet Michael is still considered by purist, as the Goat over both, without any further numbers, or trophies required.

It is because of how MJ played. He was dominant by himself. Kareem needed Magic and Oscar, great point guards, to run the team for him. He did not win a single ring between leaving Oscar and getting Magic. Lebron is greater than Kareem but Lebron needs floor-spacers around him because he does not have MJ's level of individual skill to get past defenders one-on-one. He is not a great shooter either. MJ just needed competence around him.

MJ has proved it too, by winning as much as Kareem and more than Lebron, in less years than both. He was also MVP + DPOTY + Scoring Champion all in the same season. 6 finals, 6 rings, 6 FMVPS. 10-time scoring champion for a guard, in a time when the playing environment did not favor Guards as much as Bigs. Who can compare to all this? There is nobody.


I think aesthetics also play a role in GOAT evaluations. Kareem's game simply wasn't as aesthetically pleasing to most. Imagine a new player comes into the league. He averages 35 ppg and ends up in the 60/60/90 club. However, 80% of his shots are threes and they are all hook shots off the backboard. He shoots with a low arch which means that the ball hits the backboard pretty hard. He also has unlimited range and shoots those hooks with either hand. He shoots all of his free throws underhanded and one of his signature moves is this shot right here, but he shoots it off the dribble and can even shoot it from three.



He ends up winning 6 rings. I really doubt he'd ever be considered the GOAT and people would reluctantly put him in their top players list.

Also, passing usually doesn't move the needle or actually hurts players in head to head comparisons. Imagine a tight game 7 of a playoff series. Final two minutes:

Player A: scores 12 straight points, including the game winning shot to lead his team to victory.

Player B: Gets 6 straight assists all for layups and dunks, including the game winning uncontested dunk to lead his team to victory.

Player A will always be considered the superior player.



Kareem should be considered the goat. He is #2 on my alltime list.

Well being klutch is criteria for goat conversation. Give me player A cause he isnt scared of the moment and its more impressive to hit game winners than pass to other players so they can hit klutch shots.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#271 » by Airmiess » Wed Feb 1, 2023 3:41 pm

#1 in points and top 4 in assists .. If he had won one more title in his LAL tenure he could have really propelled the goat conversations.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#272 » by lamscott » Wed Feb 1, 2023 3:52 pm

Airmiess wrote:#1 in points and top 4 in assists .. If he had won one more title in his LAL tenure he could have really propelled the goat conversations.


I mean.... its a good argument with him and MJ at this point. MJ still wins. But its a lot closer than you think.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#273 » by Vox Populi » Wed Feb 1, 2023 3:55 pm

MavsDirk41 wrote:
lambchop wrote:I think aesthetics also play a role in GOAT evaluations. Kareem's game simply wasn't as aesthetically pleasing to most. Imagine a new player comes into the league. He averages 35 ppg and ends up in the 60/60/90 club. However, 80% of his shots are threes and they are all hook shots off the backboard. He shoots with a low arch which means that the ball hits the backboard pretty hard. He also has unlimited range and shoots those hooks with either hand. He shoots all of his free throws underhanded and one of his signature moves is this shot right here, but he shoots it off the dribble and can even shoot it from three.



He ends up winning 6 rings. I really doubt he'd ever be considered the GOAT and people would reluctantly put him in their top players list.

Also, passing usually doesn't move the needle or actually hurts players in head to head comparisons. Imagine a tight game 7 of a playoff series. Final two minutes:

Player A: scores 12 straight points, including the game winning shot to lead his team to victory.

Player B: Gets 6 straight assists all for layups and dunks, including the game winning uncontested dunk to lead his team to victory.

Player A will always be considered the superior player.


Kareem should be considered the goat. He is #2 on my alltime list.

Well being klutch is criteria for goat conversation. Give me player A cause he isnt scared of the moment and its more impressive to hit game winners than pass to other players so they can hit klutch shots.

You bring up a good point about aesthetics and passing too.

I can not consider Kareem my GOAT for a different reason though, it is not because he lacked aesthetics. His game was plenty aesthetic for when he played. It was better than others from that era, like Wilt or Russell. My reason is simply that he did not reach a single final in a watered down league between leaving Oscar and getting Magic. So rightly or wrongly, I think of Magic Johnson in a better light than Kareem, for being the driving force behind the Showtime Laker's titles.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#274 » by Dino353 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 4:00 pm

Vox Populi wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
metafisical wrote:
Yes.



Just some info on Jabbar, he was much maligned in the press due to his religious beliefs. However, he got both six (6) Championships and all-time records.

Yet Michael is still considered by purist, as the Goat over both, without any further numbers, or trophies required.

It is because of how MJ played. He was dominant by himself. Kareem needed Magic and Oscar, great point guards, to run the team for him. He did not win a single ring between leaving Oscar and getting Magic. Lebron is greater than Kareem but Lebron needs floor-spacers around him because he does not have MJ's level of individual skill to get past defenders one-on-one. He is not a great shooter either. MJ just needed competence around him.

MJ has proved it too, by winning as much as Kareem and more than Lebron, in less years than both. He was also MVP + DPOTY + Scoring Champion all in the same season. 6 finals, 6 rings, 6 FMVPS. 10-time scoring champion for a guard, in a time when the playing environment did not favor Guards as much as Bigs. Who can compare to all this? There is nobody.


I can't believe what my eyes just witnessed. Did you just say all Jordan needed was competence around him? Anyone who saw Ron Harper,Dennis Rodman, and Tony Kukoc in the 80's would think you are an absolute lunatic; and that's just naming a fraction of the players Jordan suited up with. Jordan is ringless without Scottie Pippen as well.

John Paxson,Horace Grant,Luc Longley, and BJ Armstrong were also far away from slouches. Do your research kid, you sound like you were born the year 2002 and beyond.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#275 » by og15 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 5:10 pm

Dino353 wrote:
Vox Populi wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:

Just some info on Jabbar, he was much maligned in the press due to his religious beliefs. However, he got both six (6) Championships and all-time records.

Yet Michael is still considered by purist, as the Goat over both, without any further numbers, or trophies required.

It is because of how MJ played. He was dominant by himself. Kareem needed Magic and Oscar, great point guards, to run the team for him. He did not win a single ring between leaving Oscar and getting Magic. Lebron is greater than Kareem but Lebron needs floor-spacers around him because he does not have MJ's level of individual skill to get past defenders one-on-one. He is not a great shooter either. MJ just needed competence around him.

MJ has proved it too, by winning as much as Kareem and more than Lebron, in less years than both. He was also MVP + DPOTY + Scoring Champion all in the same season. 6 finals, 6 rings, 6 FMVPS. 10-time scoring champion for a guard, in a time when the playing environment did not favor Guards as much as Bigs. Who can compare to all this? There is nobody.


I can't believe what my eyes just witnessed. Did you just say all Jordan needed was competence around him? Anyone who saw Ron Harper,Dennis Rodman, and Tony Kukoc in the 80's would think you are an absolute lunatic; and that's just naming a fraction of the players Jordan suited up with. Jordan is ringless without Scottie Pippen as well.

John Paxson,Horace Grant,Luc Longley, and BJ Armstrong were also far away from slouches. Do your research kid, you sound like you were born the year 2002 and beyond.
Tony Kukoc wasn't in the NBA in the 80's just so you are aware.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#276 » by Dino353 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 5:31 pm

og15 wrote:
Dino353 wrote:
Vox Populi wrote:It is because of how MJ played. He was dominant by himself. Kareem needed Magic and Oscar, great point guards, to run the team for him. He did not win a single ring between leaving Oscar and getting Magic. Lebron is greater than Kareem but Lebron needs floor-spacers around him because he does not have MJ's level of individual skill to get past defenders one-on-one. He is not a great shooter either. MJ just needed competence around him.

MJ has proved it too, by winning as much as Kareem and more than Lebron, in less years than both. He was also MVP + DPOTY + Scoring Champion all in the same season. 6 finals, 6 rings, 6 FMVPS. 10-time scoring champion for a guard, in a time when the playing environment did not favor Guards as much as Bigs. Who can compare to all this? There is nobody.


I can't believe what my eyes just witnessed. Did you just say all Jordan needed was competence around him? Anyone who saw Ron Harper,Dennis Rodman, and Tony Kukoc in the 80's would think you are an absolute lunatic; and that's just naming a fraction of the players Jordan suited up with. Jordan is ringless without Scottie Pippen as well.

John Paxson,Horace Grant,Luc Longley, and BJ Armstrong were also far away from slouches. Do your research kid, you sound like you were born the year 2002 and beyond.
Tony Kukoc wasn't in the NBA in the 80's just so you are aware.


As far as Toni goes and it's not Tony he was the biggest overseas sensation the league had ever seen in the late 80's and Krause was genius enough to get him on the Bulls. Michael Jordan played for the best organization in the game period, that's why Toni referred to Jerry on The Last Dance and how he would've been livid with how everything about the Bulls was portrayed.

These Michael Jordan loons talk like their superhero scored every point,hauled down every rebound,dished out every assist and defended all 5 players on the court with this worshipping like he did no wrong.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#277 » by Dino353 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 5:53 pm

Vox Populi wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
metafisical wrote:
Yes.



Just some info on Jabbar, he was much maligned in the press due to his religious beliefs. However, he got both six (6) Championships and all-time records.

Yet Michael is still considered by purist, as the Goat over both, without any further numbers, or trophies required.

It is because of how MJ played. He was dominant by himself. Kareem needed Magic and Oscar, great point guards, to run the team for him. He did not win a single ring between leaving Oscar and getting Magic. Lebron is greater than Kareem but Lebron needs floor-spacers around him because he does not have MJ's level of individual skill to get past defenders one-on-one. He is not a great shooter either. MJ just needed competence around him.

MJ has proved it too, by winning as much as Kareem and more than Lebron, in less years than both. He was also MVP + DPOTY + Scoring Champion all in the same season. 6 finals, 6 rings, 6 FMVPS. 10-time scoring champion for a guard, in a time when the playing environment did not favor Guards as much as Bigs. Who can compare to all this? There is nobody.


You must be lacking attention in your personal life kid, LeBron can do what he wants when he wants he's just never had a Pippen or Rodman to do all the heavy lifting for him like Jordan did. All your boy focused on was scoring which is why the Zen Master gave him a specific role within his triangle offense.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#278 » by Vox Populi » Wed Feb 1, 2023 6:09 pm

Dino353 wrote:
Spoiler:
Vox Populi wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:

Just some info on Jabbar, he was much maligned in the press due to his religious beliefs. However, he got both six (6) Championships and all-time records.

Yet Michael is still considered by purist, as the Goat over both, without any further numbers, or trophies required.

It is because of how MJ played. He was dominant by himself. Kareem needed Magic and Oscar, great point guards, to run the team for him. He did not win a single ring between leaving Oscar and getting Magic. Lebron is greater than Kareem but Lebron needs floor-spacers around him because he does not have MJ's level of individual skill to get past defenders one-on-one. He is not a great shooter either. MJ just needed competence around him.

MJ has proved it too, by winning as much as Kareem and more than Lebron, in less years than both. He was also MVP + DPOTY + Scoring Champion all in the same season. 6 finals, 6 rings, 6 FMVPS. 10-time scoring champion for a guard, in a time when the playing environment did not favor Guards as much as Bigs. Who can compare to all this? There is nobody.


You must be lacking attention in your personal life kid, LeBron can do what he wants when he wants he's just never had a Pippen or Rodman to do all the heavy lifting for him like Jordan did. All your boy focused on was scoring which is why the Zen Master gave him a specific role within his triangle offense.

So these did not do any heavy lifting for Lebron at all?

Wade?
Bosh?
Ray Allen?
Kyrie?
Love?
AD?
The Bubbleship?
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#279 » by og15 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 6:34 pm

Dino353 wrote:
og15 wrote:
Dino353 wrote:
I can't believe what my eyes just witnessed. Did you just say all Jordan needed was competence around him? Anyone who saw Ron Harper,Dennis Rodman, and Tony Kukoc in the 80's would think you are an absolute lunatic; and that's just naming a fraction of the players Jordan suited up with. Jordan is ringless without Scottie Pippen as well.

John Paxson,Horace Grant,Luc Longley, and BJ Armstrong were also far away from slouches. Do your research kid, you sound like you were born the year 2002 and beyond.
Tony Kukoc wasn't in the NBA in the 80's just so you are aware.


As far as Toni goes and it's not Tony he was the biggest overseas sensation the league had ever seen in the late 80's and Krause was genius enough to get him on the Bulls. Michael Jordan played for the best organization in the game period, that's why Toni referred to Jerry on The Last Dance and how he would've been livid with how everything about the Bulls was portrayed.

These Michael Jordan loons talk like their superhero scored every point,hauled down every rebound,dished out every assist and defended all 5 players on the court with this worshipping like he did no wrong.

You said, this is a direct quote, "Anyone who saw Ron Harper,Dennis Rodman, and Tony Kukoc in the 80's would think you are an absolute lunatic;".

I was simply reminding you that he was not in the NBA in the 80's. In 1989 the last year of the 80's he would have been 21, regular fans would not have seen him. In the 80's for the most part, Kukoc would have been a teenager. I just didn't understand referencing the 80's in relation to him, the 90's makes much more sense. He played three seasons in the 90's overseas before coming to the NBA, I'm pretty sure that's what teams were going off of, not his play in the 80's when he was 19, 20, etc.
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Re: LeBron having this kind of season at his age is pretty damn special 

Post#280 » by KyRo23 » Wed Feb 1, 2023 8:09 pm

Vox Populi wrote:
Dino353 wrote:
Spoiler:
Vox Populi wrote:It is because of how MJ played. He was dominant by himself. Kareem needed Magic and Oscar, great point guards, to run the team for him. He did not win a single ring between leaving Oscar and getting Magic. Lebron is greater than Kareem but Lebron needs floor-spacers around him because he does not have MJ's level of individual skill to get past defenders one-on-one. He is not a great shooter either. MJ just needed competence around him.

MJ has proved it too, by winning as much as Kareem and more than Lebron, in less years than both. He was also MVP + DPOTY + Scoring Champion all in the same season. 6 finals, 6 rings, 6 FMVPS. 10-time scoring champion for a guard, in a time when the playing environment did not favor Guards as much as Bigs. Who can compare to all this? There is nobody.


You must be lacking attention in your personal life kid, LeBron can do what he wants when he wants he's just never had a Pippen or Rodman to do all the heavy lifting for him like Jordan did. All your boy focused on was scoring which is why the Zen Master gave him a specific role within his triangle offense.

So these did not do any heavy lifting for Lebron at all?

Wade?
Bosh?
Ray Allen?
Kyrie?
Love?
AD?
The Bubbleship?


I'm not going to argue about those players you listed not being great players BUT on topic with the post you are replying to... He said "heavy lifting" which I assume he means Jordan was able to focus on scoring. Great all around player Jordan was, but Pippen often guarded the best player on the other team, lead the team in assists and Rodman was leading the rebounding.

LeBron did ALL of that :lol: literally. His teams counted on his to do the "heavy lifting" in almost every way. LeBron had to be the best scorer, defender, rebounder, passer... all of it. I think that's what that poster is referring to.

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