The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10

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Vox Populi
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#181 » by Vox Populi » Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:49 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
Vox Populi wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:There is not much evidence that Curry is much of a defensive liability. We've had playoffs series at the highest level where LeBron and Harden repeatedly targeted and went iso on Curry. They ended up attacking other players. If you cannot win doing that how much of a liability is he really?

Are you perhaps, giving credit for Iguodala's and Klay's defense on Lebron and Harden to Curry there?


In the modern game switching has become the norm. You want to go after who you think is the weakest defender on the team?

SWITCH!

Curry was targeted over and over and over by the likes of LeBron and Harden who are as far as I can tell among the greatest iso attackers of this era. They lost doing that.

Did Curry's teammates help contain damage? Sure. But Curry had to hold his ground or funnel the attacker away too and his teammates' defense can shine because Curry makes them more viable on the other end.

If stacking a team with defensive pieces was easy to win with it would be done more.

The fact remains Curry has been on more top defensive teams than just about any of the recent top players aside from Kawhi and maybe Giannis.

I'm sorry but those teams being top defensive teams is because of Iguodala, Klay, Draymond, Bogut and now Wiggins. It has nothing to do with Curry. They were top defensive teams despite Curry, not because of him. Each of these five guys have been selected to NBA All-Defensive Teams on merit. Klay were Iguodala are All-NBA quality on top of the defense.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#182 » by Vox Populi » Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:53 pm

DimesandKnicks wrote:Who are the DPOY’s or all nba defenders Lebron played with? You gave him him an additional superstar playmaker and he gives u a championship.

Dwyane Wade, Shane Battier, Anthony Davis?
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#183 » by WarriorGM » Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:55 pm

DimesandKnicks wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
Giannis averages one less assist than Curry. Can curry match Giannis rebounding? Or defense? These are rhetorical questions


If you think it is Curry's box score assists that make up the main portion of his playmaking then you don't understand Curry's playmaking at all.

DimesandKnicks wrote:Andrew Bogut all NBA in 2015, Draymond Green DPOY


I can already hear the complaints about there not being enough perimeter shooting to keep defenses honest. Try opening up a Lakers thread and seeing Lakers fans moaning about how LeBron doesn't have enough help for an idea of what I'm talking about.

DimesandKnicks wrote: :lol: Now your just saying words


No that's just what spending time observing the Warriors has revealed.


Play making is the ability to directly create a shot for yourself or an assist to a teammate. Being able to suck in offenses and open up opportunities for other teammates while impactful isn’t playmaking. That’s like saying being a good screener makes someone a good playmaker. And if that’s your version of playmaking then Klay Thompson can take over that responsibility. Steph’s “playmaking” by your definition is also impacted by the gravity it takes to keep tabs on who’s probably the second greatest scoring in NBA history.

Giannis is ability to create a drive to the basket and make the right pass, I’d argue makes him a better playmaker then Curry.

Who are the DPOY’s or all nba defenders Lebron played with? You gave him him an additional superstar playmaker and he gives u a championship.


You can argue the semantics as much as you want, call it playmaking, gravity, or hocus pocus, the effectiveness of Curry's play is plain to see. Curry has claim to wins records Giannis or just about anyone else does not.

Who are the great defenders LeBron has played with? Isn't Ben Wallace in that category? Shane Battier? Larry Hughes and Varejao were selected as All-Defensive. His fans were wailing though he had no help. He could have chosen to play with more defensive oriented players if he wanted. I guess he did play with Anthony Davis and Dwight Howard recently. Still not happy with them.

Meanwhile you have Curry sticking it out with Draymond and Iguodala.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#184 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:05 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
Name the greatest NBA team. The Bulls.
Who is the greatest player on that team? Michael Jordan.



fixed it for you
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#185 » by shi-woo » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:07 pm

Curry is already there, or will be eventually. The NBA and it's fans just have a bias against little guys, and at the end of the day it really shouldn't matter. But it does, and oddly enough, it only makes the argument for Curry even easier to make :lol: Because he really has no equal in that regard, and is one of a kind

I don't include players pre-80's in my list, so my Top Ten would look like (in no order):

MJ
Bird
Magic
LBJ
Shaq
Duncan
Kareem
Kobe
Hakeem
Curry

KD, Moses Malone, and Charles Barkley would be the next in the debate followed by the 2000 era stars (Dirk, Wade, KG, Kidd, Pierce)

I think Giannis falls into the 2000 era Tier right now, and if he continues what he's doing, putting up monster stats and having deep playoff runs, I think he will break into the Malone/KD tier, and have a chance to break into the Top 10.I personally don't think he will though.

The Top Ten is reserved for players who dominated their respective era's. I don't care if you are 6'3 and can't play a lick of defense. If you are the face of a 10 year NBA documentary of your era, you are probably cracking my Top 10. Curry has done that. I've said this a hundred times on this forum, but the dude essentially took the LeBron era window and slammed it closed prematurely, right at the Zenith of the LeBron hype and GOAT propaganda. That was one of the most unexpected, and game warping moments in the history of basketball, and a lot of fans and Media Talking Heads are still pissed off about it.

But at the end of the day, since 2015, the league has essentially been Curry and the Warriors. If they lost, it was usually from something outside of their control. The game of basketball was forever changed because of what they did.

- 2x MVP
- GOAT season
- GOAT regular season team in 16
- Goat playoff team in 17
- Greatest shooter of all time
- Long Prime
- 4x trophies with essentially 3 different iterations of the same team. 6 finals appearances

People will try and take away from Steph and say something like "3's were on the way up any way blah blah blah," and what I like to do in those moments is show them Brook Lopez's career stats. This was a dude putting up 20/10 for like a decade prior to 2015, taking no 3's a game. After Curry MVP explosions? Dude lived at the 3pnt line. That's just one player, but that same affect reverberated through the entire league after the MVP years.

Guys like Magic/Bird dominated the 80's. MJ and Hakeem the 90's. Duncan/Shaq/Kobe the 2000's, and LeBron and Curry of the 2010's.

The only players that I think can reasonabily move out of the Top 10 are Kobe and Hakeem, and the only players alive right now that can move in are Kevin Durant if he can win again, usurping Hakeem, and Giannis, Luka, and Jokic. Those last 3 need to win multiple rings, and dominate the next decade of basketball first though
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#186 » by WarriorGM » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:08 pm

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Name the greatest NBA team. The Bulls.
Who is the greatest player on that team? Michael Jordan.



fixed it for you


Now imagine saying Jordan isn't a top 10 player.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#187 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:09 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Name the greatest NBA team. The Bulls.
Who is the greatest player on that team? Michael Jordan.



fixed it for you


Now imagine saying Jordan isn't a top 10 player.


1 is not like the other.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#188 » by WarriorGM » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:12 pm

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:
fixed it for you


Now imagine saying Jordan isn't a top 10 player.


1 is not like the other.


Oh but that's where you are wrong. Should Curry win two more championships the questions will start getting very interesting.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#189 » by DimesandKnicks » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:15 pm

Vox Populi wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:Who are the DPOY’s or all nba defenders Lebron played with? You gave him him an additional superstar playmaker and he gives u a championship.

Dwyane Wade, Shane Battier, Anthony Davis?


Ship Ship Ship
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#190 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:19 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Now imagine saying Jordan isn't a top 10 player.


1 is not like the other.


Oh but that's where you are wrong. Should Curry win two more championships the questions will start getting very interesting.


so far, you're the only one thats wrong. and until then, you're wrong.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#191 » by tarantism » Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:10 pm

Curry in the top 10 is a no-brainer at this point. He should be top 5 by the time he's done.

Giannis has a long way to go, but he's in his prime now and on a strong team so time will tell.

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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#192 » by CharityStripe34 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:57 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble but Curry has been on more elite defensive teams than Kobe. It's seems easier to build such elite defensive teams around Curry.




I have reservations that the Warriors with Giannis subbed in for Curry has enough offense to be viable. I have no such worries with the Bucks with Curry subbed in.


Giannis averaged 30 in the last two playoff series. What are your reservations about the Bucks defensively losing a DPOY? Like I said, all many of u posters care about is offense.


Giannis can probably match Curry's scoring. I doubt he can match Curry's playmaking.

Jrue is a strong defensive guard maybe even stronger than Klay especially after the injuries. Lopez is probably a better solid big than the Warriors have had. Don't really know much about Middleton defensively but I presume he is above average. Not many worries really.


Middleton is a below-average defender, especially the last two seasons. He understands team-defense/concepts and has size and length to help him contest.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#193 » by TheLand13 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:38 pm

DimesandKnicks wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
Giannis averaged 30 in the last two playoff series. What are your reservations about the Bucks defensively losing a DPOY? Like I said, all many of u posters care about is offense.


Giannis can probably match Curry's scoring. I doubt he can match Curry's playmaking.

Jrue is a strong defensive guard maybe even stronger than Klay especially after the injuries. Lopez is probably a better solid big than the Warriors have had. Don't really know much about Middleton defensively but I presume he is above average. Not many worries really.


Giannis averages one less assist than Curry. Can curry match Giannis rebounding? Or defense? These are rhetorical questions


Giannis averages one less assist than Curry…

This statement alone makes it pretty clear I’m wasting my time with you.

WarriorGM on the other hand is perfect for you. I’ll let you two keep going at it.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#194 » by baldur » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:05 pm

TheLand13 wrote:
baldur wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:
I really dislike this argument of “Giannis needs another MVP or two and x amount of championships”

No he doesn’t. Everyone’s top ten journey is different and your number of accolades isn’t what defines that.



He was being generous actually.

Giannis needs 4 or 5 rings to even have an actual claim.


First off no he doesn’t. But second and more importantly, huh? He’s already got a DPOY and multiple MVPs.

4-5 more rings would put him in the GOAT conversation. I feel like some of you don’t even think before you throw out these numbers.



Shaq and kobe have 4 and 5 rings respectively and they barely make the top 10 or sometimes they don't. You do underestimate being how hard to be a top 10 player of all time.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#195 » by TheLand13 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:14 pm

baldur wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:
baldur wrote:

He was being generous actually.

Giannis needs 4 or 5 rings to even have an actual claim.


First off no he doesn’t. But second and more importantly, huh? He’s already got a DPOY and multiple MVPs.

4-5 more rings would put him in the GOAT conversation. I feel like some of you don’t even think before you throw out these numbers.



Shaq and kobe have 4 and 5 rings respectively and they barely make the top 10 or sometimes they don't. You do underestimate being how hard to be a top 10 player of all time.


I don’t underestimate that at all. My point is that things are not measured by numbers. LeBron won his third ring in Cleveland and was basically catapulted into top three all time status. Not all championships are created equal and neither are the accolades.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#196 » by TheLand13 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:24 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
DB23 wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Putting so much emphasis on FOUR when it was three years is already kind of telling about your knowledge of the era but you know, could be an honest mistake too. In 68 Oscar missed time, in 69 they went up to 41 games again but missed out on the post-season because of them playing in the east (5th in the east, would've been 3rd in the east), in 1970 his only teammate of note Jerry Lucas played only 4 games.

Maybe you don't want to hear it but the moment Curry wasn't surrounded by a legion of great players, he missed the play-offs. He still had Andrew Wiggins playing all but 1 game and Dray playing just as many games as Curry himself, only Klay was gone and he hadn't been All-Star level for a while anyway. You're being way too simple here. You just see someone missing or making the play-offs and call it a day.

You're probably right though that I'm not worth your time because I don't really think anything you're saying makes any sense.


Curry missed time that year as well. So you excuse it when Oscar misses time but not curry.

They were on just under a 50 win pace when he played.

Double standards again.


Buddy pal you're only digging yourself and your credibility a bigger hole. It's the entire point that it's a double standard but you've got the perpetrator the wrong way around. Sure Oscar missed the play-offs but I'm just showing Curry did as well while still having more help than Oscar. Curry was fortunate he was only in such a situation for 1 season but how can you not see that team context matters? You think Oscar would've missed 3 post-seasons straight if he had Curry's help? No way. Similarly Curry wouldn't have done much more, if more at all, with the supporting casts Oscar had to deal with especially in the late 60s. Besides that what's more impactful? Missing 15 games in a league where playing every game is the standard or missing 9 games in a league where half the star players miss that many games for rest alone?


Four is actually an honest mistake. I forgot that the 1967 team, despite having a losing record and only winning 39 games, still made the postseason.

Alright, lets wind the clock back here a minute then. Robertson missed three. Curry missed one. You somehow think I'm playing favorites here by not giving Curry crap for missing the one (which, by the way, I have before but I'm not going to make a big deal out of it in this thread) while giving Robertson crap for missing three? One of these things is not like the other. If Robertson only missed one, I wouldn't be making nearly as big of a deal out of it.

In 68 Oscar missed time? He missed 17 games, playing in a total of 65. I'm sorry but that's a terrible excuse for them not making the playoffs.

In 69, I could really care less about whether or not Oscar would have made the playoffs had he played in a different division. The fact of the matter is, he had sufficient help, his best teammates didn't miss a lot of time. Again, terrible excuse on your part.

70 I'll give you. Even though Arsdale was able to step up and become a good number two option on the team in Jerry's place, yeah, losing someone like him and only having him for four games is going to be a problem, on top of Oscar also missing time as well. And by this point I imagine that Oscar was just completely checked out and done with the team. So I'll give him a pass for it.

Sounds to me like you're to find reasons to excuse Oscar's failures. I'm not dismissing any of Curry's. I'm using context and understanding that it would be idiotic to dwell too much on Curry missing the playoffs one time when his all star teammates were missing for most of the season (or in Klay's case, the entirety of it). If you want to call that cherry picking on my part, then I was right, this is a waste of my time.
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#197 » by DimesandKnicks » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:42 pm

TheLand13 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Giannis can probably match Curry's scoring. I doubt he can match Curry's playmaking.

Jrue is a strong defensive guard maybe even stronger than Klay especially after the injuries. Lopez is probably a better solid big than the Warriors have had. Don't really know much about Middleton defensively but I presume he is above average. Not many worries really.


Giannis averages one less assist than Curry. Can curry match Giannis rebounding? Or defense? These are rhetorical questions


Giannis averages one less assist than Curry…in the playoffs*

This statement alone makes it pretty clear I’m wasting my time with you.

WarriorGM on the other hand is perfect for you. I’ll let you two keep going at it.


Waves bye #IHaventEvenRespondedToAnyPostYouveEverMadeInLife
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#198 » by TheLand13 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:01 pm

DimesandKnicks wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
Giannis averages one less assist than Curry. Can curry match Giannis rebounding? Or defense? These are rhetorical questions


Giannis averages one less assist than Curry…in the playoffs*

This statement alone makes it pretty clear I’m wasting my time with you.

WarriorGM on the other hand is perfect for you. I’ll let you two keep going at it.


Waves bye #IHaventEvenRespondedToAnyPostYouveEverMadeInLife


Um, yea you have.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2259025&start=160#p103627723
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#199 » by DimesandKnicks » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:02 pm

TheLand13 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:
Giannis averages one less assist than Curry…in the playoffs*

This statement alone makes it pretty clear I’m wasting my time with you.

WarriorGM on the other hand is perfect for you. I’ll let you two keep going at it.


Waves bye #IHaventEvenRespondedToAnyPostYouveEverMadeInLife


Um, yea you have.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2259025&start=160#p103627723


K, #wavesbye
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Re: The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10 

Post#200 » by WarriorGM » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:45 am

Vox Populi wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Vox Populi wrote:Are you perhaps, giving credit for Iguodala's and Klay's defense on Lebron and Harden to Curry there?


In the modern game switching has become the norm. You want to go after who you think is the weakest defender on the team?

SWITCH!

Curry was targeted over and over and over by the likes of LeBron and Harden who are as far as I can tell among the greatest iso attackers of this era. They lost doing that.

Did Curry's teammates help contain damage? Sure. But Curry had to hold his ground or funnel the attacker away too and his teammates' defense can shine because Curry makes them more viable on the other end.

If stacking a team with defensive pieces was easy to win with it would be done more.

The fact remains Curry has been on more top defensive teams than just about any of the recent top players aside from Kawhi and maybe Giannis.

I'm sorry but those teams being top defensive teams is because of Iguodala, Klay, Draymond, Bogut and now Wiggins. It has nothing to do with Curry. They were top defensive teams despite Curry, not because of him. Each of these five guys have been selected to NBA All-Defensive Teams on merit. Klay were Iguodala are All-NBA quality on top of the defense.


Please list the years when those players were All-Defensive. Look up the team rank in defensive rating of the Warriors when Curry missed most of the 2020 season and then in 2021 when he came back. Whatever you may think the data indicates the Warriors have been elite defensively because of Curry not in spite of him. Wiggins has not been selected for All-Defensive as of yet.

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