Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation"

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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#41 » by theforumblue » Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:33 pm

MJ and Kareem were always in the conversation. Lebron is too. If it was so clear cut then we wouldn't be spending so much time making case for our individual favorite GOAT candidate.
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#42 » by dantas » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:08 am

He is defending his friend. But it's still MJ.

Both Kareem and Lebron got off to a hot start, better than MJ. Kareem's Bucks was dominant. But then he went to the Lakers and dropped a little bit, missed a couple of postseasons, didn't get an All Star selection, I think there were too many distractions (Bruce Lee movies, L.A. lifestyle, etc). Lebron went to Miami to make superteams, a weak move and still hasn't won as much as MJ. The way Lebron set up superteams, he should have had about 7 titles
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#43 » by DaPessimist » Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:00 am

I have Kareem at #1 and MJ at #2.

I think there are 4-5 players you can make a case for GOAT.
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#44 » by Myth » Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:03 am

Kareem is a pretty common answer for the goat. It really isn’t that crazy.
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#45 » by Edrees » Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:54 am

Anyone in the Top 5 can be reasonably "in the conversation" because of different eras and different opinions. For example, if you weight longevity more than peak, it's fair to make Kareem your GOAT.

Even if you think that MJ is easily the goat, you have to admit it's because your criteria values peak over longevity, and you might be having too much tunnel vision if you can't at least understand there's a case why someone with a longer output should be considered better overall historically. You don't have to agree, just have to recognize the case. I mean, I certainly think MJ is the goat, but if someone tells me they value longevity over peak, I can't really argue against Kareem or even Lebron now considering those priorities.
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#46 » by MavsDirk41 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:55 am

Edrees wrote:Anyone in the Top 5 can be reasonably "in the conversation" because of different eras and different opinions. For example, if you weight longevity more than peak, it's fair to make Kareem your GOAT.

Even if you think that MJ is easily the goat, you have to admit it's because your criteria values peak over longevity, and you might be having too much tunnel vision if you can't at least understand there's a case why someone with a longer output should be considered better overall historically. You don't have to agree, just have to recognize the case. I mean, I certainly think MJ is the goat, but if someone tells me they value longevity over peak, I can't really argue against Kareem or even Lebron now considering those priorities.



Not saying i disagree with what you are saying but i personally value peak over lonevity. Example would be Bird. 3 time league MVP and 3 rings but short career cause injury. High peak/low longevity but still all time top 10 player without a doubt.
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#47 » by heezyo2o » Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:03 am

WillyJakkz wrote:
Freighttrain wrote:U can have MJ, LeBron, or Kareem as ur GOAT. There is no wrong choice in any of those picks, so why would he lie for what he believes in


It's not about who can be the GOAT, it's about the man literally had his Miami Heat franchise RETIRE Michael Jordan's #23 jersey and Jordan did not play in Miami!

How??? His actions doing the jersey retirement speak volumes oSver what is coming out of his mouth.

He didn't retire Kareem's #33 jersey in Miami. Because he had Alonzo Mourning? If he felt Kareem was the GOAT he could've said hey Z come up off that #33 it's going in the rafters bruh.


Riley retired Jordan's number in Jordan's last season. Extreme maybe, but seemed like one of those gifts you give on a farewell tour
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#48 » by heezyo2o » Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:05 am

LakersLegacy wrote:How can he really think that. I mean. It seemed he thought Magic was better than Kareem when he coached them both

He lost on the Finals to MJ - after leaving his game plan in the trash can. Which Phil Jackson found and used to Pat Riley’s surprise.

Riley is a Laker and Heat legend. All the respect. But he typically has an agenda. And he has beef with LeBron for leaving in typical Riley fashion


Magic was the best player on at least 3 of those championship teams, maybe 4.

Speaking of magic, he calls Jordan the goat
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#49 » by MrBigShot » Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:21 am

He coached him. But hypothetical, Riley has to take any player to start his team, he's not picking kareem over MJ.
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#50 » by Perishable517 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:54 am

Nate505 wrote:I don't think it's the hottest take in the world to believe Kareem is the GOAT. He, with Lebron and Jordan and Wilt and Russell, are to me the Tier 1 NBA players of all time.

Honestly he's 3rd on my list.
He is first on my list. Always has been.

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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#51 » by HEAT33 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:04 am

I have MJ as 1 and Kareem as 2 Lebron as 3

To me they are in there own tier, can understand if people have those 3 in different order
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#52 » by JonFromVA » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:09 am

Xatticus wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Xatticus wrote:Russell tends to be overrated as well. For most of his career, there were 10 or fewer NBA teams.


Why does that make him over-rated?

We're lucky to have 3 teams that seem like true championship contenders in any season, the rest are often little more than fodder that are there to lose to the better team in a 7 game series.

If you want a higher level of competition, you want a bigger talent pool and a fewer number of teams. That's what was happening in Russell's day as African American's were beginning their domination of the NBA and has been repeating more recently as the talent from overseas has grown.


For a variety of reasons...

He only had to win two or three playoff series in a given season and nearly the entire league made the playoffs, which meant that the first series was generally against a bad team.

You're also assuming that a consolidation of talent meant an equal distribution of said talent, which wasn't the case. There were no measures to ensure parity. Just look at the rosters he played for. Pretty much anybody that had a significant role on any of those teams is in the HOF.

People see the titles and make assumptions that just aren't valid.


The NBA could play 12 rounds and it wouldn't change the fact that the best team almost always wins a 7 game series.

If you want to know the truth you only need to look at the Celtics before, after, and with an injured Russell because if you think all those HOF'ers won Russ 11 championships, you've got it backwards and if there are any left alive you could ask them.

Of course Auerbach was a basketball genius and took advantage of dumber and cheaper owners ... isn't that exactly what the Warriors owner bragged about?

Long before Krause drafted Pippen out of Central Arkansas, Red used a first rounder on Sam Jones out of NC Central. Sam didn't even know who the Celtics were or why they'd want him after winning a championship but his wife talked him in to it and Russ welcomed to the team by having him over. They became life long friends. Where's the stat for that? Maybe we should subject modern athletes to 50's style racism to level the proverbial playing field?

Nah, if you don't like the obvious answer then embrace the truth that there is no such thing as GOAT, just a greatest of an era and Russ was most assuredly that.
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#53 » by Bornstellar » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:12 am

I disagree but Kareem is one of the few guys you can actually make a legit GOAT case for so it's not a big deal
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#54 » by dautjazz » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:48 am

He's seen Kareem, MJ, and Lebron up close, his opinion is as anybody else's. Kareem has a strong case, third in my book, and the gaps are small.
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by gomeziee on 21 Jul 2013 00:53

im 20, and i did grow up watching MJ play in the 90's.
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#55 » by Jables » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:37 am

In the conversation is kind of disingenuous lol, if longevity is the key GOAT criteria than MJ isn't top 3, so it's a weird conversation. If longevity is just one of the criteria Kareem certainly has an argument. But if you don't really care and just want the best player and you don't know how long they will be able to play, let's be real who is taking Kareem pick one over the other guys?

I doubt he put a lot of thought into it though, dude has actually interacted with these people unlike us.
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#56 » by pipfan » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:42 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:Kareem may be the goat. He is certainly in the conversation. Not crazy to say this. I have Jordan 1a and Kareem 1b. There are 4 or 5 players in the conversation. And of course Riley sticking up for his guy.


I have MJ/LBJ/KAJ in the GOAT tier-all three have an argument. I have KAJ as #3 for NBA, but the best player ever counting HS and college
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#57 » by Hoops3355 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:33 am

Vampirate wrote:Because rings highly depend on quality of teammates, i'm just going to go with playoff production.

I'm highlighting scoring here. There's no TS% back then so i'm using the good ol PPG with FG% as neither player were 3 point shooters.

Here's the playoff breakdown, season by season.

MJ has 7 of the best scoring playoffs, Kareem has 6. I think from a scoring perspective it's still MJ by looking at this.

While Kareem did have more years, MJ had more prime years.

Kareem in the playoffs had an all star scoring efficiency late in his career, MJ dropped off to Kobe scoring efficiency.

Both players were still monsters in the playoffs at the age of 32, but MJ had 2 more top 5 peak years after, Kareem's production dropped off into All Star production after.

Image


Why only look at scoring though?
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#58 » by KyRo23 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:15 am

It's his opinion and it's not even a bad one. Why does everyone have to have "motives" for who they say is the GOAT besides the people who say MJ is GOAT? Every time, like clockwork
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#59 » by BostonCouchGM » Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:48 am

Nobody that wins the genetic lottery should even be part of the discussion. So no Karee, Wilt, Shaq, or Lebron. Those guys were freak outliers whose games were predicated and almost entirely dependent on them being physically dominant. Guys like MJ, Bird, Magic, Kobe, West, Oscar, etc were not. So as basketball players they're more well-rounded and skilled
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Re: Pat Riley Believes Kareem is the GOAT MJ Is "In The Conversation" 

Post#60 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:35 am

BostonCouchGM wrote:Nobody that wins the genetic lottery should even be part of the discussion. So no Karee, Wilt, Shaq, or Lebron. Those guys were freak outliers whose games were predicated and almost entirely dependent on them being physically dominant. Guys like MJ, Bird, Magic, Kobe, West, Oscar, etc were not. So as basketball players they're more well-rounded and skilled


Out of those guys you listed the smallest guy is West at 6'3. Today in the US that's taller than 97.5% of men. In the 60s the average height was 5'8 compared to 5'9.5 now, so in his own time West was taller than over 99% of adult men in the US. Besides that all of those guys in the second group were also incredibly athletic for their size. All of them won the genetic lottery.

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