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FluLikeSymptoms wrote:KAJ was my first favourite player but I can’t get there. I’ll put it this way- when they first started talking about MJ as the goat, Kareem was not the guy whose place he was taking. Riley probably just doesn’t want to say anyone else.

Kareem played for years while the talent was split up into the NBA and ABA but only made it to the finals twice in the 70s. People getting kicked out of the league, Rick Barry playing in both leagues(and neither). Didn’t see Dr J or other greats for years. He had one championship when he met Magic at 32 years old: then he was he man on two of those 5 Showtime chips, #2 on one and #3 on two. Russell was the man on 11, MJ was the man on 6, Mikan 5, TD 5- yeah I don’t know.

Lakers had lost the coin flip in 79 and Magic had not gone to LA, Kareem probably retires with one ring, don’t think #2 overall pick David Greenwood gets him another one, let alone 5. Even if they’d traded down and taken Moncrief. Yeah I just can’t get there.

This.

There was a huge swathe of KAJ's career where the environment was ripe for titles, but he had a massive drought during his prime that only ended when the Lakers added Magic Johnson.

Russell tends to be overrated as well. For most of his career, there were 10 or fewer NBA teams.

Magic and Bird are both underappreciated these days. Bird joined a 29-win team and immediately turned that franchise into a title contender that won 55+ games every year he was healthy. That they coexisted is the only reason neither had a dominant run during the 80s.

Jordan is the GOAT though.

WillyJakkz wrote:

Freighttrain wrote:U can have MJ, LeBron, or Kareem as ur GOAT. There is no wrong choice in any of those picks, so why would he lie for what he believes in

It's not about who can be the GOAT, it's about the man literally had his Miami Heat franchise RETIRE Michael Jordan's #23 jersey and Jordan did not play in Miami!

How??? His actions doing the jersey retirement speak volumes over what is coming out of his mouth.

He didn't retire Kareem's #33 jersey in Miami. Because he had Alonzo Mourning? If he felt Kareem was the GOAT he could've said hey Z come up off that #33 it's going in the rafters bruh.

Did he have the chance to do so when Kareem retired? Was he in the same position when he was when MJ retired? Asking for a friend.

Vox Populi wrote:

WillyJakkz wrote:why the hell under Riley's watch did Miami retire Michael Jordan's jersey number and the guy didn't even play for them?

If that is not the most GOAT thing ever, I do not know what is. Especially as the Miami Heat are the franchise where Lebron won 50% of his rings. That one has to sting for Lebron lol.

Sting?

Some felt it was all a pretense so Riley could legally and openly collude with James in advance of his free-agency.

As for Kareem, he was the greatest player in his era for a stretch, and that's the most any player can actually achieve. Anything beyond that is conjecture and opinion.

I think it’s MJ but I don’t see how you could say it’s “bull” for someone to throw Kareem into the conversation.

Xatticus wrote:Russell tends to be overrated as well. For most of his career, there were 10 or fewer NBA teams.

Why does that make him over-rated?

We're lucky to have 3 teams that seem like true championship contenders in any season, the rest are often little more than fodder that are there to lose to the better team in a 7 game series.

If you want a higher level of competition, you want a bigger talent pool and a fewer number of teams. That's what was happening in Russell's day as African American's were beginning their domination of the NBA and has been repeating more recently as the talent from overseas has grown.

Jordan was an arch rival of Riley’s when he coached the Knicks, and Riley had a lot of salt towards Lebron with Lebron leaving Miami, and Riley coached Kareem.

It’s completely understandable how he could have Kareem #1 over those guys.

You can surely make an argument for Kareem being the GOAT. Exceptional individual class, dominating the league for years and great team success (with several teams). MJ may be the even better scorer and he's won more titles being a clearer best player of his team (while Kareem got rivaled by Magic on his own Lakers team), but he's not necessarily the greater player overall.

My list of GOAT candidates is this one (in no particular order):
- Bill Russell as the greatest winner, best team player and clearly the winning factor of his record winning 11 championship teams
- Wilt Chamberlain as arguably the best individual player ever
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar as one of the very best individual players, winner, longevity
- Michael Jordan as the best scorer to go with winning championships and also great versatility
- LeBron James with arguably the greatest longevity to go with exceptional versatility and enough titles to go with it

Riley might be right, but depending on what you value most you might prefer another candidate of those 5.

Joao Saraiva wrote:

WillyJakkz wrote:

Freighttrain wrote:U can have MJ, LeBron, or Kareem as ur GOAT. There is no wrong choice in any of those picks, so why would he lie for what he believes in

It's not about who can be the GOAT, it's about the man literally had his Miami Heat franchise RETIRE Michael Jordan's #23 jersey and Jordan did not play in Miami!

How??? His actions doing the jersey retirement speak volumes over what is coming out of his mouth.

He didn't retire Kareem's #33 jersey in Miami. Because he had Alonzo Mourning? If he felt Kareem was the GOAT he could've said hey Z come up off that #33 it's going in the rafters bruh.

Did he have the chance to do so when Kareem retired? Was he in the same position when he was when MJ retired? Asking for a friend.

My friend told me to tell you to tell your friend Riley has been in Miami for over 2 decades, plenty of time to retire Kareem's jersey.

If Kareem is Riley's GOAT and meant that much to basketball was he not worthy or popular enough to have that same honor bestowed upon him?

Xatticus wrote:

FluLikeSymptoms wrote:KAJ was my first favourite player but I can’t get there. I’ll put it this way- when they first started talking about MJ as the goat, Kareem was not the guy whose place he was taking. Riley probably just doesn’t want to say anyone else.

Kareem played for years while the talent was split up into the NBA and ABA but only made it to the finals twice in the 70s. People getting kicked out of the league, Rick Barry playing in both leagues(and neither). Didn’t see Dr J or other greats for years. He had one championship when he met Magic at 32 years old: then he was he man on two of those 5 Showtime chips, #2 on one and #3 on two. Russell was the man on 11, MJ was the man on 6, Mikan 5, TD 5- yeah I don’t know.

Lakers had lost the coin flip in 79 and Magic had not gone to LA, Kareem probably retires with one ring, don’t think #2 overall pick David Greenwood gets him another one, let alone 5. Even if they’d traded down and taken Moncrief. Yeah I just can’t get there.

This.

There was a huge swathe of KAJ's career where the environment was ripe for titles, but he had a massive drought during his prime that only ended when the Lakers added Magic Johnson.

Russell tends to be overrated as well. For most of his career, there were 10 or fewer NBA teams.

Magic and Bird are both underappreciated these days. Bird joined a 29-win team and immediately turned that franchise into a title contender that won 55+ games every year he was healthy. That they coexisted is the only reason neither had a dominant run during the 80s.

Jordan is the GOAT though.

But in Kareem's case, I think said drought is far, far more indicative of his supporting cast than any shortcoming. He has an enormous track record for team success, with championships from his first year of high school basketball to his 19th in the NBA. Almost 30 years, with dynasty-caliber teams at all three levels. He didn't all of a sudden become a less impactful basketball player during the down years. Kareem was obviously extremely fortunate from a team-building standpoint, particularly with Magic over the latter half of his career. But it wasn't always good and those seasons are the result of that.

Sure, everyone needs help. But the thinned-out league, and him coming in ready to rock, casts some doubt for me.

Agree with Pat... As long as "In the Conversation" means on the same tier just a hair below.

I haven't had my morning coffee yet and I read it as "Pat Beverly believes Kareen is the GOAT". It gives me some perspective that while the argument can be the same, who says it makes some difference.

JonFromVA wrote:

Xatticus wrote:Russell tends to be overrated as well. For most of his career, there were 10 or fewer NBA teams.

Why does that make him over-rated?

We're lucky to have 3 teams that seem like true championship contenders in any season, the rest are often little more than fodder that are there to lose to the better team in a 7 game series.

If you want a higher level of competition, you want a bigger talent pool and a fewer number of teams. That's what was happening in Russell's day as African American's were beginning their domination of the NBA and has been repeating more recently as the talent from overseas has grown.

For a variety of reasons...

He only had to win two or three playoff series in a given season and nearly the entire league made the playoffs, which meant that the first series was generally against a bad team.

You're also assuming that a consolidation of talent meant an equal distribution of said talent, which wasn't the case. There were no measures to ensure parity. Just look at the rosters he played for. Pretty much anybody that had a significant role on any of those teams is in the HOF.

People see the titles and make assumptions that just aren't valid.

I'm ok with Kareem, MJ, or LaBron in the conversation as the GOAT. You can't go wrong choosing with either choice.

I asked ChatGPT who the GOAT was..

They said it's a personal choice based on what you value in basketball and common opinions are one of LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Russell

How can he really think that. I mean. It seemed he thought Magic was better than Kareem when he coached them both

He lost on the Finals to MJ - after leaving his game plan in the trash can. Which Phil Jackson found and used to Pat Riley’s surprise.

Riley is a Laker and Heat legend. All the respect. But he typically has an agenda. And he has beef with LeBron for leaving in typical Riley fashion

LakersLegacy wrote:How can he really think that. I mean. It seemed he thought Magic was better than Kareem when he coached them both

He lost on the Finals to MJ - after leaving his game plan in the trash can. Which Phil Jackson found and used to Pat Riley’s surprise.

Riley is a Laker and Heat legend. All the respect. But he typically has an agenda. And he has beef with LeBron for leaving in typical Riley fashion

When he coached them both KAJ was already 35 magic 23

Because rings highly depend on quality of teammates, i'm just going to go with playoff production.

I'm highlighting scoring here. There's no TS% back then so i'm using the good ol PPG with FG% as neither player were 3 point shooters.

Here's the playoff breakdown, season by season.

MJ has 7 of the best scoring playoffs, Kareem has 6. I think from a scoring perspective it's still MJ by looking at this.

While Kareem did have more years, MJ had more prime years.

Kareem in the playoffs had an all star scoring efficiency late in his career, MJ dropped off to Kobe scoring efficiency.

Both players were still monsters in the playoffs at the age of 32, but MJ had 2 more top 5 peak years after, Kareem's production dropped off into All Star production after.

FluLikeSymptoms wrote:KAJ was my first favourite player but I can’t get there. I’ll put it this way- when they first started talking about MJ as the goat, Kareem was not the guy whose place he was taking. Riley probably just doesn’t want to say anyone else.

Kareem played for years while the talent was split up into the NBA and ABA but only made it to the finals twice in the 70s. People getting kicked out of the league, Rick Barry playing in both leagues(and neither). 6 rings, yeah. Didn’t see Dr J or other greats for years. He had one championship when he met Magic at 32 years old: then he was he man on two of those 5 Showtime chips, #2 on one and #3 on two. Russell was the man on 11, MJ was the man on 6, Mikan 5, TD 5- yeah I don’t know.

If the Lakers had lost the coin flip in 79 and Magic had not gone to LA, Kareem probably retires with one ring. Don’t think #2 overall pick David Greenwood gets him another one, let alone 5. Even if they’d traded down and taken Moncrief. Yeah I just can’t get there.

All greats need help.

What if the Bulls didn't acquire Pippen? How many titles would MJ have won?

Riley coached Kareem personally. Not mad at him for throwing Kareem some mindshare equity.

Kareem scored all of those points without 3 balls.