Does Jimmy Butler Have A Higher Peak Than Kevin Garnett?

[WarriorGM]

I'm unsure why there are people on this board who rate Kevin Garnett so highly so I thought I'd try this theoretical exercise to try to understand that opinion better. From what I can tell Jimmy Butler has a case for having had a better playoffs run than Garnett.

For example in these respective playoffs runs where they were eliminated in the conference finals including Garnett's 2004 run which I gather is supposedly his best:

Code: Select all

                         Pts  Rbds  Asts  PER   TS%   WS  WS/48  OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
Garnett 2004            24.3  14.6  5.1   25   .513  2.7  .163    3.6   2.9   6.5  1.7
Butler 2022             27.4  7.4   4.6  29.9  .604  3.8  .291    8.3   3.5  11.8  2.2


Aside from a clear advantage in rebounding and a slight advantage in assists Butler has better numbers nearly across the board than Garnett suggesting Butler had a better playoffs performance.

Do people agree? If not why not?

[UglyBugBall]

Wow.

Can't tell if serious.

This is classic case of stats don't tell the whole story

[chrisab123]

I'm unsure why there are people on this board who rate Kevin Garnett so highly so I thought I'd try this theoretical exercise to try to understand that opinion better. From what I can tell Jimmy Butler has a case for having had a better playoffs run than Garnett.

For example in these respective playoffs runs where they were eliminated in the conference finals including Garnett's 2004 run which I gather is supposedly his best:

Code: Select all

                         Pts  Rbds  Asts  PER   TS%   WS  WS/48  OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
Garnett 2004            24.3  14.6  5.1   25   .513  2.7  .163    3.6   2.9   6.5  1.7
Butler 2022             27.4  7.4   4.6  29.9  .604  3.8  .291    8.3   3.5  11.8  2.2


Aside from a clear advantage in rebounding and a slight advantage in assists Butler has better numbers nearly across the board than Garnett suggesting Butler had a better playoffs performance.

Do people agree? If not why not?

Butler, for one, has had a much better supporting cast. KG had Spreewell, Starbury, and "World." Everyone keyed in on KG all the time. Butler has Herro, Bam, and others that the Miami player factory is able to create. In order to appreciate how truly good KG was, you need to have watched him.

[WarriorGM]

I'm unsure why there are people on this board who rate Kevin Garnett so highly so I thought I'd try this theoretical exercise to try to understand that opinion better. From what I can tell Jimmy Butler has a case for having had a better playoffs run than Garnett.

For example in these respective playoffs runs where they were eliminated in the conference finals including Garnett's 2004 run which I gather is supposedly his best:

Code: Select all

                         Pts  Rbds  Asts  PER   TS%   WS  WS/48  OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
Garnett 2004            24.3  14.6  5.1   25   .513  2.7  .163    3.6   2.9   6.5  1.7
Butler 2022             27.4  7.4   4.6  29.9  .604  3.8  .291    8.3   3.5  11.8  2.2


Aside from a clear advantage in rebounding and a slight advantage in assists Butler has better numbers nearly across the board than Garnett suggesting Butler had a better playoffs performance.

Do people agree? If not why not?

Butler, for one, has had a much better supporting cast. KG had Spreewell, Starbury, and "World." Everyone keyed in on KG all the time. Butler has Herro, Bam, and others that the Miami player factory is able to create. In order to appreciate how truly good KG was, you need to have watched him.

How are you determining that Butler had a better supporting cast? Herro's and Bam's reputations aren't that high. If BPM and VORP of the main supporting players are compared KG's teammates actually have higher numbers.

[Domejandro]

I get being a Minnesota fan makes my input optically poor, but no, it isn't even close.

During that WCF run, the Timberwolves had Sam Cassell's back and hip implode from an injury, Wally Sczcerbiak had to play through three cracked vertabrae, Gary Trent was cooked from lingering ankle injuries, Troy Hudson (backup PG) was out-for-the season because of an ankle injury, and Ervin Johnson (starting Center) was playing through a wrist injury.

Starting PG crippled, backup PG deleted from the roster, best wingplayer playing through a broken back, backup SG hobbled, and starting Center hobbled. Darrick Martin was functionally their only Point-Guard, which is frightening.

Because of this, Kevin Garnett had to transition into being Minnesota's Point-Guard because Latrell Spreewell was terrible and nobody could dribble the ball up the court. Additionally, Minnesota ran a point-of-attack 1-2-2 zone defense with Kevin Garnett where he would (I mean this literally) have to roam around the entire court as the guy who picks up the ball and operate as the helper. When Minnesota needed him to play big, they would transition to a 1-3-1 zone where he would play the same role, except instead of being at point-of-attack, he would start under the basket.

This all means that Minnesota's 6'13" Power-Forward had to be a defacto Point-Guard to dribble the ball up the court, carry the majority of Minnesota's scoring/facilitating load, and was the team's only positive impact defensive player who the entire defense leaned on. I cannot overstate how unbelievably ridiculous that series is to watch, to the point where it should settle any conversation about Latrell Spreewell not being a disaster.


TL;DR: Comparing those two situations (especially with the massive differences in pace of play) is straight up wrong.


EDIT: An example of the extent of the trainwreck was Minnesota losing 92-85 in Game Four of the Western Conference Finals when Kevin Garnett played 47:29 (no, the game did not go to overtime) and dropped 28-13-9. He scored or assisted on 56.5% of Minnesota's points, and they still lost the game. Legitimately tragic, it's ridiculous that Minnesota lost in six by a cumulative margin of only thirteen points.

[MagicBagley18]

Jesus h Christ…..

[maverick_41]

Let’s play with stats and narratives. I have a feeling we can find material for thread “Does Kyle Lowry have a higher peak than John Stockton?” Or at least than Billups.

[UglyBugBall]

I'm unsure why there are people on this board who rate Kevin Garnett so highly so I thought I'd try this theoretical exercise to try to understand that opinion better. From what I can tell Jimmy Butler has a case for having had a better playoffs run than Garnett.

For example in these respective playoffs runs where they were eliminated in the conference finals including Garnett's 2004 run which I gather is supposedly his best:

Code: Select all

                         Pts  Rbds  Asts  PER   TS%   WS  WS/48  OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
Garnett 2004            24.3  14.6  5.1   25   .513  2.7  .163    3.6   2.9   6.5  1.7
Butler 2022             27.4  7.4   4.6  29.9  .604  3.8  .291    8.3   3.5  11.8  2.2


Aside from a clear advantage in rebounding and a slight advantage in assists Butler has better numbers nearly across the board than Garnett suggesting Butler had a better playoffs performance.

Do people agree? If not why not?

Butler, for one, has had a much better supporting cast. KG had Spreewell, Starbury, and "World." Everyone keyed in on KG all the time. Butler has Herro, Bam, and others that the Miami player factory is able to create. In order to appreciate how truly good KG was, you need to have watched him.

How are you determining that Butler had a better supporting cast? Herro's and Bam's reputations aren't that high. If BPM and VORP of the main supporting players are compared KG's teammates actually have higher numbers.

Let me just ask, did you actually watch KG during his prime? I don't mean Youtube highlights, I mean were you watching basketball and KG during those years?

Because if you were I don't think you'd be asking this question.

[Goomba3666]

No. Lol

[WarriorGM]

I get being a Minnesota fans makes my input optically poor, but no, it isn't even close.

During that WCF run, the Timberwolves had Sam Cassell's back and hip implode from an injury, Wally Sczcerbiak had to play through three cracked vertabrae, Gary Trent was cooked from lingering ankle injuries, Troy Hudson (backup PG) was out-for-the season because of an ankle injury, and Ervin Johnson (starting Center) was playing through a wrist injury.

Starting PG crippled, backup PG deleted from the roster, best wingplayer playing through a broken back, backup SG hobbled, and starting Center hobbled. Darrick Martin was functionally their only Point-Guard, which is frightening.

Because of this, Kevin Garnett had to transition into being Minnesota's Point-Guard because Latrell Spreewell was terrible and nobody could dribble the ball up the court. Additionally, Minnesota ran a point-of-attack 1-2-2 zone defense with Kevin Garnett where he would (I mean this literally) have to roam around the entire court as the guy who picks up the ball and operate as the helper. When Minnesota needed him to play big, they would transition to a 1-3-1 zone where he would play the same role, except instead of being at point-of-attack, he would start under the basket.

This all means that Minnesota's 6'13" Power-Forward had to be a defacto Point-Guard to dribble the ball up the court, carry the majority of Minnesota's scoring/facilitating load, and was the team's only positive impact defensive player who the entire defense leaned on. I cannot overstate how unbelievably ridiculous that series is to watch, to the point where it should settle any conversation about Latrell Spreewell not being a disaster.


TL;DR: Comparing those two situations (especially with the massive differences in pace of play) is straight up wrong.


EDIT: An example of the extent of the trainwreck was Minnesota losing 92-85 in Game Four of the Western Conference Finals when Kevin Garnett played 47:29 (no, the game did not go to overtime) and dropped 28-13-9. He scored or assisted on 56.5% of Minnesota's points, and they still lost the game. Legitimately tragic, it's ridiculous that Minnesota lost in six by a cumulative margin of only thirteen points.

Those were during the years I gave up watching basketball because it was so boring to watch so I am unaware of the background. That said isn't it odd that Garnett's numbers didn't reflect the added reliance on him? Even if this particular playoffs run was sabotaged by injuries to his teammates couldn't one point to another that wasn't? From what I can tell Butler's line is still more impressive than just about any playoffs run in Garnett's career.

[jasonxxx102]

If you want an answer to your question, just watch them both play and throw away the stats.

[Jables]

In 50 years when no-one has really seen Garnett play, you could probably convince them Butler was a better player.

[JN61]

Warrior fan fails to understand differences between eras. Come on now. After thread like this nobody takes your opinion about curry seriously

Derailing, personal attack.

[BBallFreak]

I don't think it's ridiculous to say that he's kinda close, but Garnett is better. No shame in that for Jimmy, it's just a fact. KG could do things on the court that very few people could do.

[Doranku]

I feel like it should also be taken into consideration that Jimmy is a part-time basketball player compared to KG. By the '04 playoffs, KG had played 9 regular seasons and missed 13 total games. Jimmy missed 25 games in 2022 alone.

[dhsilv2]

Step away from the crack pipe!

[Ugalde]

see and when i say stats are stupid people call me crazy? now we got stats guys thinking butler is better than kg lol.

[One Last Shot]

Didn't you watched KG at all and just check on the stats then conclude that Butler is better. That's the only explanation I can think of.

[UglyBugBall]

Those were during the years I gave up watching basketball because it was so boring to watch so I am unaware of the background. That said isn't it odd that Garnett's numbers didn't reflect the added reliance on him? From what I can tell Butler's line is still more impressive than just about any playoffs run in Garnett's career.

No. It's not close. KG is a much better defender. He was a better leader. He was a better passer. He was a better scorer despite plating in an era where scoring was low and pace was even lower. Love Butler, but there's literally nothing he does remotely as well as KG.

[cam24thomas]

If you replace Jordan and Pippen with KG and Butler, how many rings would KG and Butler have led the Bulls to in the 90s?