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How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:20 pm
by Homer38
and who are its centers?
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:26 pm
by ty 4191
How many players, period, have had a 3 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!
Updated:
Consider that in the past 240 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:
26.5/12.2/8.5 on +8.7 rTS% (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):
The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.5/12.2/8.5 in ANY 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.
Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.1 MPG.
And, he's sustained it for nearly 3 full seasons, including the playoffs.
That is truly astounding.
For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:
1. His 31.8 PER across the last 240 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Lebron James.
2. His BPM the last 3 seasons is 11.9, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 6 all time among *single season* BPM totals.
3. His TS% of .660 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.
He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .370 from three point range on very high volume for a big man.
Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:29 pm
by Hankey89
I don't think any player in history has had his overall impact on offence, he is averaging 30ppg, 10 assists on elite efficiency.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:32 pm
by Airmiess
Jokic is benefitting from the era hes in, at the same time he is capitalizing off of the modern NBA by meeting the skill requirements required to put up the numbers and advanced stats he does. So he deserves the praise.
If David Robinson, KG or Tim Duncan developed in this era it would be something we haven't seen before. Like better and more durable AD's and Embiid's.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:34 pm
by Raps in 4
None
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:37 pm
by cupcakesnake
This is a Kareem vs. Shaq vs. Jokic question.
I don't think there's another center, if we're just talking offense, that needs apply.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:37 pm
by Ni Da Ye
SHAQ
Hakeem
Kareem
Wilt
*TD is a PF.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:38 pm
by Homer38
cupcakesnake wrote:This is a Kareem vs. Shaq vs. Jokic question.
I don't think there's another center, if we're just talking offense, that needs apply.
I think Wilt deserve to be in the discussion
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:39 pm
by Wagonband
Airmiess wrote:Jokic is benefitting from the era hes in, at the same time he is capitalizing off of the modern NBA by meeting the skill requirements required to put up the numbers and advanced stats he does. So he deserves the praise.
If David Robinson, KG or Tim Duncan developed in this era it would be something we haven't seen before. Like better and more durable AD's and Embiid's.
Ah yes, the "modern NBA" beneficiary... Jokic would be amazing in era. His posts moves would always work, and good luck for the great 90s centers defending him outside the paint.
Also KG and Tim Duncan would not be much better today than they were before. There is no reason to assume such a thing. We are talking about 15 years ago, not 50.
He is probably the best offensive center of all time right now.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:42 pm
by CodeBreaker
Peak Shaq vs Peak Jokic debate would be so good
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:47 pm
by makubesu
I’m happy to give Jokic his dues but right after he played a series against a garbage defensive team like Phoenix is insulting. To win a chip this year, he might have to go against Gobert, AD, and Embiid. That would be an all time run.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:47 pm
by cupcakesnake
Homer38 wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:This is a Kareem vs. Shaq vs. Jokic question.
I don't think there's another center, if we're just talking offense, that needs apply.
I think Wilt deserve to be in the discussion
Whoops, I meant to mention Wilt. I knew there was a 4th center in my head but I haven't had my morning coffee yet.
It is harder to isolate Wilt's offensive peak.
We have the early Wilt years where he piled up crazy numbers but produced bad offenses. Then we have 1967 Wilt who "figured it out", started passing, and his teams offense went through the roof.
So if there's an offensive peak from Wilt that I'd consider putting over Jokic, it would be 1967. He went from being a 50% shooter to almost a 70% shooter, led the league in total assists, and almost averaged a triple-double in the playoffs on his way to his first championship.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:51 pm
by ty 4191
Let's compare three year primes/peaks. All numbers include the playoffs.
Shaq 2000-2002:
278 games
28.9/12.9/3.4 on +5.6 rTS%
Jokic 2021-2023:
241 games
26.5/12.2/8.5 on +9.0 rTS%
Kareem 1976-1978:
240 games
27.0/14.6/4.4 on +7.9 rTS%
Wilt 1966-1968:
275 games
26.8/24.6/7.2 on +7.6 rTS%
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:51 pm
by ty 4191
Wagonband wrote:He is probably the best offensive center of all time right now.
I agree.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:52 pm
by cupcakesnake
Wagonband wrote:Airmiess wrote:Jokic is benefitting from the era hes in, at the same time he is capitalizing off of the modern NBA by meeting the skill requirements required to put up the numbers and advanced stats he does. So he deserves the praise.
If David Robinson, KG or Tim Duncan developed in this era it would be something we haven't seen before. Like better and more durable AD's and Embiid's.
Ah yes, the "modern NBA" beneficiary... Jokic would be amazing in era. His posts moves would always work, and good luck for the great 90s centers defending him outside the paint.
Also KG and Tim Duncan would not be much better today than they were before. There is no reason to assume such a thing. We are talking about 15 years ago, not 50.
He is probably the best offensive center of all time right now.
While I think Robinson/KG/Duncan might be better in this era, it wouldn't be because their offense would get better. I think each of their defensive versatility would be more utilized in this era.
Offensively we'd see them all expand their range. They were all good shooters but were never expected to step out to 3. They'd all get less post-ups, which would probably be a good thing for KG and DRob, but a detractor for Duncan. KG and Robinson would be more celebrated for their off-ball abilities on offense (Duncan was no slouch in this area either).
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:52 pm
by OdomFan
Patrick Ewing was just as skilled. Could shoot the ball well, finish at the rim, etc. Even after the injuries to a stand point. I'm including him.
Then there's of course Hakeem, David Robinson, Kareem, and Shaq.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:53 pm
by ty 4191
cupcakesnake wrote:Homer38 wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:This is a Kareem vs. Shaq vs. Jokic question.
I don't think there's another center, if we're just talking offense, that needs apply.
I think Wilt deserve to be in the discussion
Whoops, I meant to mention Wilt. I knew there was a 4th center in my head but I haven't had my morning coffee yet.
It is harder to isolate Wilt's offensive peak.
We have the early Wilt years where he piled up crazy numbers but produced bad offenses. Then we have 1967 Wilt who "figured it out", started passing, and his teams offense went through the roof.
So if there's an offensive peak from Wilt that I'd consider putting over Jokic, it would be 1967. He went from being a 50% shooter to almost a 70% shooter, led the league in total assists, and almost averaged a triple-double in the playoffs on his way to his first championship.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:55 pm
by srhcan
Homer38 wrote:and who are its centers?
Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem ...
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:56 pm
by Airmiess
Wagonband wrote:Airmiess wrote:Jokic is benefitting from the era hes in, at the same time he is capitalizing off of the modern NBA by meeting the skill requirements required to put up the numbers and advanced stats he does. So he deserves the praise.
If David Robinson, KG or Tim Duncan developed in this era it would be something we haven't seen before. Like better and more durable AD's and Embiid's.
Ah yes, the "modern NBA" beneficiary... Jokic would be amazing in era. His posts moves would always work, and good luck for the great 90s centers defending him outside the paint.
Also KG and Tim Duncan would not be much better today than they were before. There is no reason to assume such a thing. We are talking about 15 years ago, not 50.
He is probably the best offensive center of all time right now.
The spacing and offensive systems that are implemented now are very conducive to bigs who can :
put the ball on the floor, rebound and bring the ball up in transition, utilize adequate court vision, and keep the defense honest by bringing opposing bigs out the paint.
I think the guys I mentioned would put up some eye opening numbers imo, Jokic would have them in court vision but everything else would be up for grabs.
Re: How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:57 pm
by ty 4191
srhcan wrote:Homer38 wrote:and who are its centers?
Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem ...
Which 3 seasons ("peak/prime") of Shaq, Hakeem, and Kareem exceed what Jokic has done the past 3 years?