Jokic vs prime arvydas

[Bergmaniac]

We're not talking about his NBA career bro. This is about "prime Arvydas".

It makes sense if you are talking about dunks or blocks. How can a 31 yr old 7'3 suddenly lost vision and passing ability? You have to say that passing/assist is about his "prime" level.

You can't make the same passes if you can't move as well. Do you think that Westbrook would still average 10 assists per game if he was a statue out there? When Sabonis came to the NBA he could barely move.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/players/arvydas-sabonis-1.html - here are Sabonis stats from the Spanish league (1989-1995) and from his Olympics tournaments. He never averaged more than 3.3 assists. And in all but one of his Spanish league seasons or Olympics tournaments he averaged 2.4 assists or less.

And obviously it's way easier for a 7'3" centre to rack up assists without moving much than for a 6'3" PG. Why are you playing dumb?

[KnicksNext]

NBA pundits talk about how great prime Arvydas was, and have heard some say how he was Jokic before Jokic, but in his 9 pre nba season averaged 19.9/12/2 in 32 minutes a game, mostly in the Spanish League. Sabonis was a great player, but come on, what Jokic is doing is other worldly compared Sabonis.

I'm old enough to say I watched Sabonis a lot, and there is no comparison. Sabonis was good but never great. Jokic will go down as an all-time great (maybe top 5-7). Where is Sabonis on the all time great list? Very far down. Not even close.

You're talking about Portland Sabonis right? No one here is arguing that he was better.

Choose any Sabonis you'd like to on any team and it's still not even close.

[Big J]

I'm old enough to say I watched Sabonis a lot, and there is no comparison. Sabonis was good but never great. Jokic will go down as an all-time great (maybe top 5-7). Where is Sabonis on the all time great list? Very far down. Not even close.

You're talking about Portland Sabonis right? No one here is arguing that he was better.

Choose any Sabonis you'd like to on any team and it's still not even close.

Actually it is. If you think that the Portland version is anything like prime Sabonis you are sorely mistaken.

[KnicksNext]

This thread has been done to death. Pretty much everyone is taking Arvydas. No knock on Jokic and if he wins a ring this year itll be a more interesting discussion.

Pretty much everyone is taking Sabonis?? Well those people would be so, so wrong. It's Jokic and it's not even close. Sabonis was never in the MVP conversation and Jokic should have just won his third MVP.

You people talking about Sabonis and MVP have no idea what they are talking about. Prime Arvydas was way before he ever saw an NBA floor.

Dude, it doesn't matter how good he was in Europe or whatever. Can you imagine Jokic playing in those leagues? Not even sure how this can be a topic considering how wide of a margin it is when comparing (any year Sabonis) with Jokic.

[Mickey8]

This thread has been done to death. Pretty much everyone is taking Arvydas. No knock on Jokic and if he wins a ring this year itll be a more interesting discussion.

Pretty much everyone is taking Sabonis?? Well those people would be so, so wrong. It's Jokic and it's not even close. Sabonis was never in the MVP conversation and Jokic should have just won his third MVP.

Pretty much every Lithuanian

[drekwins]

Arvydas was an absolute beast. He made David Robinson, who was a NBA ROY, NBA MVP, NBA DPOY, 10 time All-NBA team member and one of the best centers of all-time, look pedestrian. At this point in time, David Robinson, is still above Jokic. I understand how good Jokic is but David Robinson is one of the best defenders all-time in addition to being an incredibly good offensive player.

Thus, it's plausible to provide a compelling argument that Sabonis may have been better... especially if he were allowed to consistently play against elite competition and obtained American medical care. With that said, it's impossible to prove such a claim. Sabonis is one of the greatest "what ifs" in basketball history.

Watch on YouTube

Yes, they were young in this clip... but David Robinson was NBA ROY only 2 years later.

This is the box score from that game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/boxscores/1988-09-28-soviet-union.html

Robinson scored 19 in 25 minutes while on the floor. I'd hardly call Robinson pedestrian in the game.

And here's the full game.

Watch on YouTube

They played twice in foreign competition. The video I posted, in 1986, was pre-achilles injury Sabonis. The video you posted is in 1988, post-injury... hence why Western medical intervention is a big "What If" aspect of this conversation. In 1986, he was much more mobile.

Still, Arvydas won the Gold Medal in 1988 over David Robinson, who ended up as ROY one year later on averages of 24, 12 and 4blks. Robinson was also extremely physically developed strength-wise at a young age, as he was serving our country at the time in the Naval Academy.

Arvydas was an absolute beast and a team player... similar to Jokic. Many said that Embiid looked better statistically this year. The impact of Arvydas presence impacted every aspect of the game.

Rasheed Wallace, who is ruthlessly honest, said that Sabonis was the most skilled man he had ever seen. Sabonis was a 7-4 Jokic. It's unfortunate that he was restricted from coming over... especially by a country that he did not even want to be a part of. Lithuanians are not fans of Russians at all. He was forced to stay by the former Soviet Union. A true victim.

[Big J]

Pretty much everyone is taking Sabonis?? Well those people would be so, so wrong. It's Jokic and it's not even close. Sabonis was never in the MVP conversation and Jokic should have just won his third MVP.

You people talking about Sabonis and MVP have no idea what they are talking about. Prime Arvydas was way before he ever saw an NBA floor.

Dude, it doesn't matter how good he was in Europe or whatever. Can you imagine Jokic playing in those leagues? Not even sure how this can be a topic considering how wide of a margin it is when comparing (any year Sabonis) with Jokic.

Jokic playing in Europe in the 80s would be good, but not even close to as dominant as he is in the current NBA. It was way more physical, and there was way less space and individual ball dominance.

[Bergmaniac]

Jokic playing in Europe in the 80s would be good, but not even close to as dominant as he is in the current NBA.

LMAO. Please tell me you are trolling.

[Mickey8]

You people talking about Sabonis and MVP have no idea what they are talking about. Prime Arvydas was way before he ever saw an NBA floor.

Dude, it doesn't matter how good he was in Europe or whatever. Can you imagine Jokic playing in those leagues? Not even sure how this can be a topic considering how wide of a margin it is when comparing (any year Sabonis) with Jokic.

Jokic playing in Europe in the 80s would be good, but not even close to as dominant as he is in the current NBA. It was way more physical, and there was way less space and individual ball dominance.

Jokic have grown up playing physical basketball, he was in the quiet a lot altercations in the Adriatic and Serbian league . He would fit in any era, the guy is just too skilled, huge and he's the physical player as well. He's bullying other players on the block and he's not shy of the contact. He would be dominant player in any era.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic playing in Europe in the 80s would be good, but not even close to as dominant as he is in the current NBA.

LMAO. Please tell me you are trolling.

He is. He still hasn’t told us where he saw pre injury Sabonis play.

[Mickey8]

Sabonis was never as dominant as Pau Gasol and Nikola Jokic in his career nor he was more skilled than them. Him being some unstoppable force in his prime is the myth. He was the great European center but not the greatest.

[Bergmaniac]

Bob McAdoo went to Europe at age 35 after being a bench player averaging 10 PPG in his last two NBA seasons. He immediately led Olympia Milano to two straight European Champions Cup titles. But sure, Jokic in his prime wouldn't have cut it in Europe in the 1980s...

[dhsilv2]

Arvydas was an absolute beast. He made David Robinson, who was a NBA ROY, NBA MVP, NBA DPOY, 10 time All-NBA team member and one of the best centers of all-time, look pedestrian. At this point in time, David Robinson, is still above Jokic. I understand how good Jokic is but David Robinson is one of the best defenders all-time in addition to being an incredibly good offensive player.

Thus, it's plausible to provide a compelling argument that Sabonis may have been better... especially if he were allowed to consistently play against elite competition and obtained American medical care. With that said, it's impossible to prove such a claim. Sabonis is one of the greatest "what ifs" in basketball history.

Watch on YouTube

Yes, they were young in this clip... but David Robinson was NBA ROY only 2 years later.

This is the box score from that game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/boxscores/1988-09-28-soviet-union.html

Robinson scored 19 in 25 minutes while on the floor. I'd hardly call Robinson pedestrian in the game.

And here's the full game.

Watch on YouTube

They played twice in foreign competition. The video I posted, in 1986, was pre-achilles injury Sabonis. The video you posted is in 1988, post-injury... hence why Western medical intervention is a big "What If" aspect of this conversation. In 1986, he was much more mobile.

Still, Arvydas won the Gold Medal in 1988 over David Robinson, who ended up as ROY one year later on averages of 24, 12 and 4blks. Robinson was also extremely physically developed strength-wise at a young age, as he was serving our country at the time in the Naval Academy.

Arvydas was an absolute beast and a team player... similar to Jokic. Many said that Embiid looked better statistically this year. The impact of Arvydas presence impacted every aspect of the game.

Rasheed Wallace, who is ruthlessly honest, said that Sabonis was the most skilled man he had ever seen. Sabonis was a 7-4 Jokic. It's unfortunate that he was restricted from coming over... especially by a country that he did not even want to be a part of. Lithuanians are not fans of Russians at all. He was forced to stay by the former Soviet Union. A true victim.

I thought you said 2 years later he'd be rookie of the year (1990 season). So this game where Robinson scored 20 to Sabonis's 16.

https://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/12/rid/873/sid/2911/_/1986_World_Championship_for_Men/statistic.html

Watch on YouTube

[drekwins]

This is the box score from that game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/boxscores/1988-09-28-soviet-union.html

Robinson scored 19 in 25 minutes while on the floor. I'd hardly call Robinson pedestrian in the game.

And here's the full game.

Watch on YouTube

They played twice in foreign competition. The video I posted, in 1986, was pre-achilles injury Sabonis. The video you posted is in 1988, post-injury... hence why Western medical intervention is a big "What If" aspect of this conversation. In 1986, he was much more mobile.

Still, Arvydas won the Gold Medal in 1988 over David Robinson, who ended up as ROY one year later on averages of 24, 12 and 4blks. Robinson was also extremely physically developed strength-wise at a young age, as he was serving our country at the time in the Naval Academy.

Arvydas was an absolute beast and a team player... similar to Jokic. Many said that Embiid looked better statistically this year. The impact of Arvydas presence impacted every aspect of the game.

Rasheed Wallace, who is ruthlessly honest, said that Sabonis was the most skilled man he had ever seen. Sabonis was a 7-4 Jokic. It's unfortunate that he was restricted from coming over... especially by a country that he did not even want to be a part of. Lithuanians are not fans of Russians at all. He was forced to stay by the former Soviet Union. A true victim.

I thought you said 2 years later he'd be rookie of the year (1990 season). So this game where Robinson scored 20 to Sabonis's 16.

https://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/12/rid/873/sid/2911/_/1986_World_Championship_for_Men/statistic.html

Watch on YouTube

I mis-spoke because David Robinson college career ended in 1987. I knew he won ROY but forgot that he sat out 2 years to complete his mandatory military service until I double-checked his stats. My apologies for the mix-up.

[The Laker Kid]

Arvydas Sabonis was the ONLY center who was actually able to bother Shaq. Jokic is good, but not as physical. I would take Sabonis on this one, I've actually watched him play and he was a beast.

[Walton the GOAT]

Bob McAdoo went to Europe at age 35 after being a bench player averaging 10 PPG in his last two NBA seasons. He immediately led Olympia Milano to two straight European Champions Cup titles. But sure, Jokic in his prime wouldn't have cut it in Europe in the 1980s...

Darryl Middleton won the two ACB MVP's before Sabonis and a third in 2000. He was drafted in the third round after 4 years at Baylor and never sniffed the NBA.

Spanish ACB comp in the 80's/90's was not that good.

[KnicksNext]

You people talking about Sabonis and MVP have no idea what they are talking about. Prime Arvydas was way before he ever saw an NBA floor.

Dude, it doesn't matter how good he was in Europe or whatever. Can you imagine Jokic playing in those leagues? Not even sure how this can be a topic considering how wide of a margin it is when comparing (any year Sabonis) with Jokic.

Jokic playing in Europe in the 80s would be good, but not even close to as dominant as he is in the current NBA. It was way more physical, and there was way less space and individual ball dominance.

Says you.

[dhsilv2]

They played twice in foreign competition. The video I posted, in 1986, was pre-achilles injury Sabonis. The video you posted is in 1988, post-injury... hence why Western medical intervention is a big "What If" aspect of this conversation. In 1986, he was much more mobile.

Still, Arvydas won the Gold Medal in 1988 over David Robinson, who ended up as ROY one year later on averages of 24, 12 and 4blks. Robinson was also extremely physically developed strength-wise at a young age, as he was serving our country at the time in the Naval Academy.

Arvydas was an absolute beast and a team player... similar to Jokic. Many said that Embiid looked better statistically this year. The impact of Arvydas presence impacted every aspect of the game.

Rasheed Wallace, who is ruthlessly honest, said that Sabonis was the most skilled man he had ever seen. Sabonis was a 7-4 Jokic. It's unfortunate that he was restricted from coming over... especially by a country that he did not even want to be a part of. Lithuanians are not fans of Russians at all. He was forced to stay by the former Soviet Union. A true victim.

I thought you said 2 years later he'd be rookie of the year (1990 season). So this game where Robinson scored 20 to Sabonis's 16.

https://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/12/rid/873/sid/2911/_/1986_World_Championship_for_Men/statistic.html

Watch on YouTube

I mis-spoke because David Robinson college career ended in 1987. I knew he won ROY but forgot that he sat out 2 years to complete his mandatory military service until I double-checked his stats. My apologies for the mix-up.

no worries. That was the more fun game imo anyway. Still, Sabonis made Robinson look SMALL. But Robonson still got his in that 86 game. And sabonis again just scored 16.

[DCasey91]

Hard to judge because people think you can compare Jokic to any center that can shoot, pass and playmake but the reality is no center in NBA history can do all three at the level that Jokic is producing for the last 3 seasons.

He’s not just one of the best passes or playmakers for a center but he’s certainly among the best of all time at both.

After watching enough film of Magic/Bird, Jokic for me certainly joins that company and frankly a tier ahead of everybody else.

In chess terms (if you play you might get the analogy) if Duncan is Karpov a fundamentally perfect player in all areas then Jokic is Alpha Zero hur duh hur lets do whatever I want kind of thing.

It isn’t a vs per say because Jokic is such an outlier on ability at his size. It’s Curry all over again but more threatening imho.

Ive read a comment somewhere that said Jokic plays like if a neural network was trained for basketball and given a Boston Dynamics frame.

That’s actually a very accurate comparison lmao. NN is a damn cheat code it’s scary how much better comp engines learn vs us pleb humans. They be like just do this bro you idiot and we’re like nah no one thinks like that unless your crazy or a genius.

[70sFan]

I thought you said 2 years later he'd be rookie of the year (1990 season). So this game where Robinson scored 20 to Sabonis's 16.

https://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/12/rid/873/sid/2911/_/1986_World_Championship_for_Men/statistic.html

Watch on YouTube

I mis-spoke because David Robinson college career ended in 1987. I knew he won ROY but forgot that he sat out 2 years to complete his mandatory military service until I double-checked his stats. My apologies for the mix-up.

no worries. That was the more fun game imo anyway. Still, Sabonis made Robinson look SMALL. But Robonson still got his in that 86 game. And sabonis again just scored 16.

Sabonis definitely outplayed Robinson in that 1986 championship game though. Robinson took advantage of USSR lineups without Sabonis on the floor, but when you watch the game Arvydas was clearly on the winnning side of this matchup.

It doesn't mean much in this discussion of course, but both sides push unreasonable agenda driven points there. Sabonis was never close to how good Jokic is now, but his talent was undeniable. He was an all-star level bigman as early as in the mid 80s when he was still a kid.