RealGM

The 90s saw a slew of expansion teams. The Hornets, Heat, Magic and TWolves were added in 88 and 89. The Raptors and Grizzlies were added in 95. The league went from 23 teams to 29. Combined with the lack of international players, how much do you think this impacted the talent of the league? Did expansion drafts really hurt any of the competitive teams? This may be something specific fanbases would know best, as I'm not as familiar with who was taken in expansion drafts.

I would imagine poaching a bunch of 12th men in an expansion draft probably had less of an effect on competitiveness compared to, hypothetically of course, a situation where franchise star players were colluding in their primes to leave their teams to be 2nd or 3rd options together

I dont think it was so much expansion as it was bad luck / low longevity for a lot of great players.

The best players at the start of the 1980s - Magic, Bird, Isiah, Moses, Kareem, Erving, Thompson, etc. were essentially irrelevant by like 92. HIV, Birds bad back, coke suspensions, and age caught up with everyone.

So then the insane 1984 class comes into the league with Jordan, Barkley, Stockton, Hakeem. The leagues loaded with talent. But the next 7-8 draft classes basically sucked. The best prospect was David Robinson and we had to wait for him to come to the league. Ewing was great but not an all timer perennial MVP contender type. Basically the only truly great players to join the league between 1985 and 1991 were Robinson and Malone. Bad luck for a lot of the super hyped guys around this time. Len Bias dies, Sampson cant stay healthy, Daugherty cant stay healthy,

The league was still getting carried by these old guys into the late 90s. It wasn't until Shaq that a true force of nature joined the league to rival someone like Jordan. The 92, 93, 96, and 97 draft classes were loaded but they were too young to compete for titles.

Basically short careers for the 1980s early stars + long talent drought in between 1985 and 91ish led to Jordan / Hakeem / Malone dominating the league for a long time.

Its way different from the early 00s. Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, KG all had super long careers + the lesser stars hung on forever as well.

Sports medicine lengthening careers is a major driver of talent boom. LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, etc have had some crazy long and impactful careers relative to others.

KembaWalker wrote:I would imagine poaching a bunch of 12th men in an expansion draft probably had less of an effect on competitiveness compared to, hypothetically of course, a situation where franchise star players were colluding in their primes to leave their teams to be 2nd or 3rd options together

Exactly. And also expansion had less of an effect that inflation of stats and soft rules from 2015 to present day, which allowed some players to be statistically great... Form without substance...

The league wasn't weak. Come on, the top talent was very good. Stockton, Malone, MJ, Pippen, Payton, Kemp, Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin, Penny Hardaway... The expansion just made us witness an era were not all teams contending could put together 2 or 3 all-stars. Having 2 was already very significant during the 90s. Yes, some teams were crap. The talent poll was not as good as today but it was still good.

Also some guys look not as good to our eyes today because they aren't shooters at all or something. But the game was diferent and those players were OK cause of illegal defense.

I would say the early portion of the 2010s (2013-2015) were worse. Most of the great players that entered in the mid to late 90s were either on their way out or finished and we lost guys like Rose and Howard to injury. Like some of the all nba teams and all star teams from that era are pretty laughable now looking back on it.

KembaWalker wrote:I would imagine poaching a bunch of 12th men in an expansion draft probably had less of an effect on competitiveness compared to, hypothetically of course, a situation where franchise star players were colluding in their primes to leave their teams to be 2nd or 3rd options together

Well, now we know LeBron lives completely rent free in your head I think there's a support group for people with LeBron Derangement Syndrome (LDS) around here in case you want help.

Taj FTW wrote:

KembaWalker wrote:I would imagine poaching a bunch of 12th men in an expansion draft probably had less of an effect on competitiveness compared to, hypothetically of course, a situation where franchise star players were colluding in their primes to leave their teams to be 2nd or 3rd options together

Well, now we know LeBron lives completely rent free in your head I think there's a support group for people with LeBron Derangement Syndrome (LDS) around here in case you want help.

not sure what this incoherent babbling has to do with the thread? You okay?

KembaWalker wrote:

Taj FTW wrote:

KembaWalker wrote:I would imagine poaching a bunch of 12th men in an expansion draft probably had less of an effect on competitiveness compared to, hypothetically of course, a situation where franchise star players were colluding in their primes to leave their teams to be 2nd or 3rd options together

Well, now we know LeBron lives completely rent free in your head I think there's a support group for people with LeBron Derangement Syndrome (LDS) around here in case you want help.

not sure what this incoherent babbling has to do with the thread? You okay?

That's cute. Trying to act like you weren't calling out LeBron out of nowhere because you got upset by the thread premise. LDS at its finest.

Taj FTW wrote:

KembaWalker wrote:I would imagine poaching a bunch of 12th men in an expansion draft probably had less of an effect on competitiveness compared to, hypothetically of course, a situation where franchise star players were colluding in their primes to leave their teams to be 2nd or 3rd options together

Well, now we know LeBron lives completely rent free in your head I think there's a support group for people with LeBron Derangement Syndrome (LDS) around here in case you want help.

It really must bother you that jordan is still da goat.. how’s that 5th championship ride coming along?? Has the joker from Denver put a dent in those plans??

Roger Murdock wrote:I dont think it was so much expansion as it was bad luck / low longevity for a lot of great players.

The best players at the start of the 1980s - Magic, Bird, Isiah, Moses, Kareem, Erving, Thompson, etc. were essentially irrelevant by like 92. HIV, Birds bad back, coke suspensions, and age caught up with everyone.

So then the insane 1984 class comes into the league with Jordan, Barkley, Stockton, Hakeem. The leagues loaded with talent. But the next 7-8 draft classes basically sucked. The best prospect was David Robinson and we had to wait for him to come to the league. Ewing was great but not an all timer perennial MVP contender type. Basically the only truly great players to join the league between 1985 and 1991 were Robinson and Malone. Bad luck for a lot of the super hyped guys around this time. Len Bias dies, Sampson cant stay healthy, Daugherty cant stay healthy,

The league was still getting carried by these old guys into the late 90s. It wasn't until Shaq that a true force of nature joined the league to rival someone like Jordan. The 92, 93, 96, and 97 draft classes were loaded but they were too young to compete for titles.

Basically short careers for the 1980s early stars + long talent drought in between 1985 and 91ish led to Jordan / Hakeem / Malone dominating the league for a long time.

Its way different from the early 00s. Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, KG all had super long careers + the lesser stars hung on forever as well.

Sports medicine lengthening careers is a major driver of talent boom. LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, etc have had some crazy long and impactful careers relative to others.

The 1985 draft was a really good draft. Not sure why you would include it in your prospect drought years.

Drafted in 1985:
Ewing
Karl Malone
Chris Mullin
Joe Dumars
Wayman Tisdale
Detlef Schrempf
Charles Oakley
AC Green
Manute Bol
Hot Rod Williams
Gerald Wilkins
Xavier McDaniel

plus more players who had good careers. 1985 is a strong draft class.

Players didn't strength train in the 90s

Therefore, the league was weaker than today.

Roger Murdock wrote:I dont think it was so much expansion as it was bad luck / low longevity for a lot of great players.

The best players at the start of the 1980s - Magic, Bird, Isiah, Moses, Kareem, Erving, Thompson, etc. were essentially irrelevant by like 92. HIV, Birds bad back, coke suspensions, and age caught up with everyone.

So then the insane 1984 class comes into the league with Jordan, Barkley, Stockton, Hakeem. The leagues loaded with talent. But the next 7-8 draft classes basically sucked. The best prospect was David Robinson and we had to wait for him to come to the league. Ewing was great but not an all timer perennial MVP contender type. Basically the only truly great players to join the league between 1985 and 1991 were Robinson and Malone. Bad luck for a lot of the super hyped guys around this time. Len Bias dies, Sampson cant stay healthy, Daugherty cant stay healthy,

The league was still getting carried by these old guys into the late 90s. It wasn't until Shaq that a true force of nature joined the league to rival someone like Jordan. The 92, 93, 96, and 97 draft classes were loaded but they were too young to compete for titles.

Basically short careers for the 1980s early stars + long talent drought in between 1985 and 91ish led to Jordan / Hakeem / Malone dominating the league for a long time.

Its way different from the early 00s. Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, KG all had super long careers + the lesser stars hung on forever as well.

Sports medicine lengthening careers is a major driver of talent boom. LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, etc have had some crazy long and impactful careers relative to others.

That's a great writeup though I agree with the guy above that 85 draft was solid.

There were a few other guys that came up. Pippen, KJ, Payton, Kemp, Reggie, Hardaway, Richmond, Dumars, and Mark Price to name a few. Reggie Lewis and Petrovic died. But, like you say, not many real MVP level challengers and no two guys who teamed up*.

I'll add Bernard King's injury as another fortunate break for Jordan. He and Ewing would've been just nasty. He was still around but not as potent and on a lousy Bullets team.


*95 Rockets vs. a really good Bulls team is a great what if.

ropjhk wrote:

Roger Murdock wrote:I dont think it was so much expansion as it was bad luck / low longevity for a lot of great players.

The best players at the start of the 1980s - Magic, Bird, Isiah, Moses, Kareem, Erving, Thompson, etc. were essentially irrelevant by like 92. HIV, Birds bad back, coke suspensions, and age caught up with everyone.

So then the insane 1984 class comes into the league with Jordan, Barkley, Stockton, Hakeem. The leagues loaded with talent. But the next 7-8 draft classes basically sucked. The best prospect was David Robinson and we had to wait for him to come to the league. Ewing was great but not an all timer perennial MVP contender type. Basically the only truly great players to join the league between 1985 and 1991 were Robinson and Malone. Bad luck for a lot of the super hyped guys around this time. Len Bias dies, Sampson cant stay healthy, Daugherty cant stay healthy,

The league was still getting carried by these old guys into the late 90s. It wasn't until Shaq that a true force of nature joined the league to rival someone like Jordan. The 92, 93, 96, and 97 draft classes were loaded but they were too young to compete for titles.

Basically short careers for the 1980s early stars + long talent drought in between 1985 and 91ish led to Jordan / Hakeem / Malone dominating the league for a long time.

Its way different from the early 00s. Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, KG all had super long careers + the lesser stars hung on forever as well.

Sports medicine lengthening careers is a major driver of talent boom. LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, etc have had some crazy long and impactful careers relative to others.

The 1985 draft was a really good draft. Not sure why you would include it in your prospect drought years.

Drafted in 1985:
Ewing
Karl Malone
Chris Mullin
Joe Dumars
Wayman Tisdale
Detlef Schrempf
Charles Oakley
AC Green
Manute Bol
Hot Rod Williams
Gerald Wilkins
Xavier McDaniel

plus more players who had good careers. 1985 is a strong draft class.

The 1987 draft class was also pretty good.

David Robinson
Reggie Miller
Scottie Pippen
Kevin Johnson
Mugsy Bogues
Olden Polynice
Mark Jackson
Horace Grant
Kenny Smith

plus more players who had good careers. 1987 was another strong draft class. Not as good as 1985, but still good.

DOT wrote:Players didn't strength train in the 90s

Therefore, the league was weaker than today.

I don't know if that's true, especially by the late 90s. You had a lot of strong, beefy frontcourt players in the 90s. That era is known for its physicality and grinding post play.

Taj FTW wrote:

KembaWalker wrote:I would imagine poaching a bunch of 12th men in an expansion draft probably had less of an effect on competitiveness compared to, hypothetically of course, a situation where franchise star players were colluding in their primes to leave their teams to be 2nd or 3rd options together

Well, now we know LeBron lives completely rent free in your head I think there's a support group for people with LeBron Derangement Syndrome (LDS) around here in case you want help.

Yet you are the one constantly creating passive aggressive anti-Jordan threads trying devalue his legacy. Jordan must live in your head rent free and you must be suffering from Jordan Derangement Syndrome.

ropjhk wrote:

ropjhk wrote:

Roger Murdock wrote:I dont think it was so much expansion as it was bad luck / low longevity for a lot of great players.

The best players at the start of the 1980s - Magic, Bird, Isiah, Moses, Kareem, Erving, Thompson, etc. were essentially irrelevant by like 92. HIV, Birds bad back, coke suspensions, and age caught up with everyone.

So then the insane 1984 class comes into the league with Jordan, Barkley, Stockton, Hakeem. The leagues loaded with talent. But the next 7-8 draft classes basically sucked. The best prospect was David Robinson and we had to wait for him to come to the league. Ewing was great but not an all timer perennial MVP contender type. Basically the only truly great players to join the league between 1985 and 1991 were Robinson and Malone. Bad luck for a lot of the super hyped guys around this time. Len Bias dies, Sampson cant stay healthy, Daugherty cant stay healthy,

The league was still getting carried by these old guys into the late 90s. It wasn't until Shaq that a true force of nature joined the league to rival someone like Jordan. The 92, 93, 96, and 97 draft classes were loaded but they were too young to compete for titles.

Basically short careers for the 1980s early stars + long talent drought in between 1985 and 91ish led to Jordan / Hakeem / Malone dominating the league for a long time.

Its way different from the early 00s. Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, KG all had super long careers + the lesser stars hung on forever as well.

Sports medicine lengthening careers is a major driver of talent boom. LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, etc have had some crazy long and impactful careers relative to others.

The 1985 draft was a really good draft. Not sure why you would include it in your prospect drought years.

Drafted in 1985:
Ewing
Karl Malone
Chris Mullin
Joe Dumars
Wayman Tisdale
Detlef Schrempf
Charles Oakley
AC Green
Manute Bol
Hot Rod Williams
Gerald Wilkins
Xavier McDaniel

plus more players who had good careers. 1985 is a strong draft class.

The 1987 draft class was also pretty good.

David Robinson
Reggie Miller
Scottie Pippen
Kevin Johnson
Mugsy Bogues
Olden Polynice
Mark Jackson
Horace Grant
Kenny Smith

plus more players who had good careers. 1987 was another strong draft class. Not as good as 1985, but still good.

Olden Polynice???

https://www.theonion.com/fact-checking-the-first-presidential-debate-1819594041

“[NAFTA] is the single worst trade deal ever approved in this country.” -Donald Trump

This is false. The worst trade deal in this country’s history was when the SuperSonics dealt Scottie Pippen to the Bulls for Olden Polynice.

Maybe Pippen was excluded for also being on the Bulls?

Capn'O wrote:

ropjhk wrote:

ropjhk wrote:
The 1985 draft was a really good draft. Not sure why you would include it in your prospect drought years.

Drafted in 1985:
Ewing
Karl Malone
Chris Mullin
Joe Dumars
Wayman Tisdale
Detlef Schrempf
Charles Oakley
AC Green
Manute Bol
Hot Rod Williams
Gerald Wilkins
Xavier McDaniel

plus more players who had good careers. 1985 is a strong draft class.

The 1987 draft class was also pretty good.

David Robinson
Reggie Miller
Scottie Pippen
Kevin Johnson
Mugsy Bogues
Olden Polynice
Mark Jackson
Horace Grant
Kenny Smith

plus more players who had good careers. 1987 was another strong draft class. Not as good as 1985, but still good.

Olden Polynice???

https://www.theonion.com/fact-checking-the-first-presidential-debate-1819594041

“[NAFTA] is the single worst trade deal ever approved in this country.” -Donald Trump

This is false. The worst trade deal in this country’s history was when the SuperSonics dealt Scottie Pippen to the Bulls for Olden Polynice.

Maybe Pippen was excluded for also being on the Bulls?

lol. Okay, I admit he stands out on that list. But he did have a long NBA career. That's gotta count for something, right?

Taj FTW wrote:The 90s saw a slew of expansion teams. The Hornets, Heat, Magic and TWolves were added in 88 and 89. The Raptors and Grizzlies were added in 95. The league went from 23 teams to 29. Combined with the lack of international players, how much do you think this impacted the talent of the league? Did expansion drafts really hurt any of the competitive teams? This may be something specific fanbases would know best, as I'm not as familiar with who was taken in expansion drafts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cI21cqOHf0AmhLVKVZMmJPWy6Lp8zX3M95GDUCI232k/edit#gid=0

As you can see, truly awful teams were added, hundreds of players were added that had no business being in the NBA, and the league was significantly weakened and debased as a result, for quite a long time.