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NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:28 pm
by eyeatoma
This will probably get a lot of hate, because it's Joel, and he's the internet's favorite whipping boy, but I think I'd agree, that he is that talented, and in a vacuum can produce that well, that yes he could have been, or would have had a shot.

People will say playoffs, but just like Embiid said, he's been hurt every playoffs except for during the bubble, but there was no Simmons on that team, and Embiid was not his MVP self at that point.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/20/magazine/joel-embiid-interview.html

Here's a detailed summary of the interview with Joel Embiid:

**Choosing Team USA over France**

* Embiid has dual citizenship (Canadian and American) and also feels connected to Cameroon (his birthplace).
* He felt pressured by France to play for them and ultimately chose the USA because he'd spent more time there and felt comfortable with their approach of letting him take his time with the decision.
* He expressed frustration with the historical and current relationship between France and Cameroon, which influenced his decision.

**Finding balance between seriousness and fun**

* Embiid acknowledges being a goofier and less serious player in the past, especially on Twitter.
* Having a son changed his perspective, making him want to be a better role model and take basketball more seriously.
* He highlights the importance of focus and preparation for winning.

**Struggles in Philadelphia**

* Embiid has dealt with multiple coaching changes, player turnover, and injuries during his time with the 76ers.
* He blames himself partly for not winning a championship due to injuries and not always performing at his peak.
* He emphasizes the value of continuity and stability, which the 76ers haven't always had.
* Despite the frustrations, Embiid expresses his love for Philadelphia and seems open to staying there long-term. (He jokingly says he doesn't eat cheesesteaks, though!)

**Grieving his brother's death and its impact**

* Losing his brother at a young age was a life-changing experience for Embiid.
* It made him value family more and appreciate life beyond basketball.
* He shared his unique way of honoring his brother by wanting to have four children (because three felt like an incomplete number).

**Mental health and competitive drive**

* Embiid avoids using the term "depression" but acknowledges feeling down after his injury last season.
* He expresses a belief in mental health but struggles with admitting vulnerability due to his background.
* Despite challenges, Embiid maintains a strong competitive spirit that fuels his desire to win.

**Expectations for the Olympics**

* Embiid anticipates boos from French fans but welcomes the challenge.
* He acknowledges the talent on the US team but also recognizes that some players, like LeBron James, are not at their peak anymore.
* There's a chance for other teams to compete for the gold.

**Self-belief and greatest-of-all-time conversation**

* Embiid believes his injuries have prevented him from being part of the greatest-of-all-time conversation for basketball players.
* He acknowledges the "hot take" potential of his statement but stands by it based on his accomplishments and what could have been.
* He emphasizes that his understanding of life being bigger than basketball doesn't prevent him from giving his all and striving to win while he plays.


Thoughts?

Do you tend to agree with Embiid?

Take all the hate out, and just go with sheer talent and ability, as well as what he's been able to produce when he's absolutely healthy.

Obviously titles would have to come with it, but peak Embiid would have as good a shot as any of the top 10 in being the goat IMO.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:30 pm
by Johnny Bball
No shot.

The position he plays, the way the game is today, not really possible. Injuries or not.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:33 pm
by JJ_PR
I don't think a healthy Embiid has a chance of surpassing LeBron or MJ. Top 10 is a real possibility though.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:33 pm
by UcanUwill
Good luck with this thread eyetoma. Will be interesting to see him under different officiating in Fiba.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:37 pm
by SelfishPlayer
To be the GOAT you have to be in excellent shape. Embiid's stamina and physical conditioning have never been excellent.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:37 pm
by Tor_Raps
Healthy embiid definitely could have been on the level with the great big men like Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem and soon to be Jokic but sadly we'll never know.

Those injuries forced him to change his game and become the soft/flopper who throws cheapshots instead. GOAT talks were probably always off-limits.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:40 pm
by eyeatoma
SelfishPlayer wrote:To be the GOAT you have to be in excellent shape. Embiid's stamina and physical conditioning have never been excellent.



If he were healthy every offseason, he would have more time for that.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:41 pm
by Mavrelous
Any statement is unfalsifiable if we remove the burden of proof.
Embiid best season was his MVP season, it was very tight race with Jokic and Giannis, so it wasn't anything GOAT level, and he flamed out in the PO.
Embiid's injury in 2023 PO was knee sprain, same injury Luka had this year, along with bruise in his rib cage due to Westbrook practicing Kung Fu on him, it's not something to excuse not being able to win after being up 3-2, with the team winning a game on the road w/o him.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:44 pm
by UglyBugBall
He has a case. He's clearly the best player in the NBA when healthy, and last season he was having the greatest regular season of all time until he got injured.

But he hasn't show the ability to play at an all time level in the playoffs, so at most I would say he would have had a chance to become the greatest regular season player of all time. A super harden.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:47 pm
by eyeatoma
Mavrelous wrote:Any statement is unfalsifiable if we remove the burden of proof.
Embiid best season was his MVP season, it was very tight race with Jokic and Giannis, so it wasn't anything GOAT level, and he flamed out in the PO.
Embiid's injury in 2023 PO was knee sprain, same injury Luka had this year, along with bruise in his rib cage due to Westbrook practicing Kung Fu on him, it's not something to excuse not being able to win after being up 3-2, with the team winning a game on the road w/o him.



I'd argue his best season was last season. More efficient, higher scoring, better defense, rebounding, and block numbers. Also was on pace for the highest PER of all time, and was blowing Jokic/Shai in that department out of the water. His EPM was also the best, not sure if it was best of all time though.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:51 pm
by jc23
his injury history is not bad luck; he just doesnt have the body built to play 82 games and then a deep post season.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:54 pm
by UglyBugBall
Mavrelous wrote:Any statement is unfalsifiable if we remove the burden of proof.
Embiid best season was his MVP season, it was very tight race with Jokic and Giannis, so it wasn't anything GOAT level, and he flamed out in the PO.
Embiid's injury in 2023 PO was knee sprain, same injury Luka had this year, along with bruise in his rib cage due to Westbrook practicing Kung Fu on him, it's not something to excuse not being able to win after being up 3-2, with the team winning a game on the road w/o him.


Embiids best season was last season, by a wide margin.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:55 pm
by ImSlower
"If he were healthy his entire career" can be applied to many, many athletes.

Seems to me the conversation is as spurious as "What if [player] had been 5 inches taller?" or any other sort of What If scenario. What if Brad Pitt had been 6-7" and raised to hoop? Could he have been a HOFer? Yeesh.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:56 pm
by Mavrelous
eyeatoma wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:Any statement is unfalsifiable if we remove the burden of proof.
Embiid best season was his MVP season, it was very tight race with Jokic and Giannis, so it wasn't anything GOAT level, and he flamed out in the PO.
Embiid's injury in 2023 PO was knee sprain, same injury Luka had this year, along with bruise in his rib cage due to Westbrook practicing Kung Fu on him, it's not something to excuse not being able to win after being up 3-2, with the team winning a game on the road w/o him.



I'd argue his best season was last season. More efficient, higher scoring, better defense, rebounding, and block numbers. Also was on pace for the highest PER of all time, and was blowing Jokic/Shai in that department out of the water. His EPM was also the best, not sure if it was best of all time though.


UglyBugBall wrote:Embiids best season was last season, by a wide margin.


Last season was very small sample, had many missing games even before having the knee injury, this isn't evidence if we're going to declare someone GOAT.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:59 pm
by UglyBugBall
Mavrelous wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:Any statement is unfalsifiable if we remove the burden of proof.
Embiid best season was his MVP season, it was very tight race with Jokic and Giannis, so it wasn't anything GOAT level, and he flamed out in the PO.
Embiid's injury in 2023 PO was knee sprain, same injury Luka had this year, along with bruise in his rib cage due to Westbrook practicing Kung Fu on him, it's not something to excuse not being able to win after being up 3-2, with the team winning a game on the road w/o him.



I'd argue his best season was last season. More efficient, higher scoring, better defense, rebounding, and block numbers. Also was on pace for the highest PER of all time, and was blowing Jokic/Shai in that department out of the water. His EPM was also the best, not sure if it was best of all time though.


UglyBugBall wrote:Embiids best season was last season, by a wide margin.


Last season was very small sample, had many missing games even before having the knee injury, this isn't evidence if we're going to declare someone GOAT.


It was basically a half season sample size. More than that considering most players nowadays don't play over 70 games. Not a huge sample, but not very small at all.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 4:01 pm
by Bornstellar
No offense but...eyeatoma agrees with Embiid here? Shocker.

The answer is a resounding no

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 4:03 pm
by Karate Diop
Embiid with perfect health still doesn't have enough heart or grit.

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 4:07 pm
by Lockdown504090
Karate Diop wrote:Embiid with perfect health still doesn't have enough heart or grit.

I mean he’s played through severe injuries. Idk. His face was falling off and he had a 50 point playoff game

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 4:09 pm
by cupcakesnake
I think Embiid is an all-time talent, and I don't have a hard time imagining him being in the top 10-15 all-time debate if he'd had a healthy career.

I can't really imagine him near the top of that debate though, with Kareem, Lebron, MJ. Even at his best, Embiid has had warts, mainly with the consistency of his effort/focus, and until last year his passing.

He's not the first mega-talent to lose a lot of their career to injuries. Bill Walton, Bernard King, Arvydas Sabonis, Kawhi Leonard, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Greg Oden, Yao Ming, Tracy McGrady, Brad Daugherty, Bradon Roy, Shaun Livingston, Derrick Rose. Low key Dwight Howard, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson too.

It's unfortunate. I'd rather see great players have healthy careers and raise the league's competition level.

I do hope we get at least 1 good healthy Embiid run. How about this year?

Re: NY Times: Joel Embiid thinks he could have been the GOAT if it weren't for injuries.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 4:09 pm
by Mavrelous
UglyBugBall wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:

I'd argue his best season was last season. More efficient, higher scoring, better defense, rebounding, and block numbers. Also was on pace for the highest PER of all time, and was blowing Jokic/Shai in that department out of the water. His EPM was also the best, not sure if it was best of all time though.


UglyBugBall wrote:Embiids best season was last season, by a wide margin.


Last season was very small sample, had many missing games even before having the knee injury, this isn't evidence if we're going to declare someone GOAT.


It was basically a half season sample size. More than that considering most players nowadays don't play over 70 games. Not a huge sample, but not very small at all.


We have large body of evidence from 7 years, and 34 games from intermittent period, I'd value the large body of evidnce more.
He played 7 times against teams in the top 4 in each conference, that's 7 out of 23, 30% of possible tough matchups.