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It's effectively the net extra possessions a player generates. I kind of think this is an important number to know whether positive or negative. You can't find this number anywhere though and no one speaks on it.

We focus on TS% which is scoring efficiency per possession. But we don't look at net possessions generated. I mean you can even create a TS% equation that accounted for net possessions:
Points / (2x (FGA - TO + STL + OREB + 0.44xFTA).


Should this be a commonly discussed stat?
Has this lack of emphasis impacted the love for role players that are big net possession gainers?

not sure it's fair in general for PGs, who are more prone to TOs due to a lot of passing and too small for offensive rebounds.

Please add the top 5 players in this category.
In addition, the value of this metric for the top10 players in the NBA.

After I see the names, I can see if it makes my favorite players look good or bad and decide my opinion about the new metric based on that

svart wrote:not sure it's fair in general for PGs, who are more prone to TO's due to a lot of passing and too small for offensive rebounds.

Right, not meaning it to put down certain roles. I'd expect playmakers to be net negative in possession gained.

Maybe one could work assists in to possession usage efficiency with TS%.

Drummond was the first that came to mind because of his high offensive boards and low turnovers.

He was a +3.3 last season, and peaked at a +4.9 in 2018/19


For comparison sake, Giannis peak was last season at +0.5
Sophomore Shaq peaked at +2.9.

Sofia wrote:Drummond was the first that came to mind because of his high offensive boards and low turnovers.

He was a +3.3 last season, and peaked at a +4.9 in 2018/19


For comparison sake, Giannis peak was last season at +0.5

I mean Drummond is underrated. He's been consistently a positive impact player.

zimpy27 wrote:

Sofia wrote:Drummond was the first that came to mind because of his high offensive boards and low turnovers.

He was a +3.3 last season, and peaked at a +4.9 in 2018/19


For comparison sake, Giannis peak was last season at +0.5

I mean Drummond is underrated. He's been consistently a positive impact player.

Is he, though? Mediocre BPM and EPM. No range. Bleh passer. Incompetent at the line. Hasnt played 20+ mpg since a 46-game season in 2021.

He is a very good rebounder, but "underrated" is probably a hard sell.

EDIT: not really a "low turnover" guy by rate, either. Which isnt good for a dude with a fairly low usage rate.

tsherkin wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

Sofia wrote:Drummond was the first that came to mind because of his high offensive boards and low turnovers.

He was a +3.3 last season, and peaked at a +4.9 in 2018/19


For comparison sake, Giannis peak was last season at +0.5

I mean Drummond is underrated. He's been consistently a positive impact player.

Is he, though? Mediocre BPM and EPM. No range. Bleh passer. Incompetent at the line. Hasnt played 20+ mpg since a 46-game season in 2021.

He is a very good rebounder, but "underrated" is probably a hard sell.

EDIT: not really a "low turnover" guy by rate, either. Which isnt good for a dude with a fairly low usage rate.

Decent LEBRON, PIPM

I think he's not s favourable locker room guy but otherwise he's a decent C option I think.

Poor vet presence but is a vet. Not much playoff experience, performs worse broadly in playoffs than RS. Though he was great for Lakers in playoffs, they probably should have kept him.

My man Mitchell Robinson comes to mind. We’ve been able to ride his offensive rebounding to high offensive ratings in the past. He really did some damage to Cleveland’s front court a while back in the playoffs too - one of my favorite role player performance

zimpy27 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:
I mean Drummond is underrated. He's been consistently a positive impact player.

Is he, though? Mediocre BPM and EPM. No range. Bleh passer. Incompetent at the line. Hasnt played 20+ mpg since a 46-game season in 2021.

He is a very good rebounder, but "underrated" is probably a hard sell.

EDIT: not really a "low turnover" guy by rate, either. Which isnt good for a dude with a fairly low usage rate.

Decent LEBRON, PIPM

I think he's not s favourable locker room guy but otherwise he's a decent C option I think.

Poor vet presence but is a vet. Not much playoff experience, performs worse broadly in playoffs than RS. Though he was great for Lakers in playoffs, they probably should have kept him.

There is a reason he hasnt been a 30mpg player in half a decade: he isnt worth it. Rebounding and rim defense with no scoring skills, no range, limited ability to defend in space. His utility is quite limited. He was decent for 5 games 3 years ago for LA, but like again, 21.mpg. Taking 6 FGA/g. 23.2% TOV (trash, obviously). Lots of OREB, wasnt blocking shots...


Eeeeeh. He was OVERrated for a while. Now he is just... there. Filling minutes. He isnt trash, I guess, but definitely not a high-impact player.

tsherkin wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
Is he, though? Mediocre BPM and EPM. No range. Bleh passer. Incompetent at the line. Hasnt played 20+ mpg since a 46-game season in 2021.

He is a very good rebounder, but "underrated" is probably a hard sell.

EDIT: not really a "low turnover" guy by rate, either. Which isnt good for a dude with a fairly low usage rate.

Decent LEBRON, PIPM

I think he's not s favourable locker room guy but otherwise he's a decent C option I think.

Poor vet presence but is a vet. Not much playoff experience, performs worse broadly in playoffs than RS. Though he was great for Lakers in playoffs, they probably should have kept him.

There is a reason he hasnt been a 30mpg player in half a decade: he isnt worth it. Rebounding and rim defense with no scoring skills, no range, limited ability to defend in space. His utility is quite limited. He was decent for 5 games 3 years ago for LA, but like again, 21.mpg. Taking 6 FGA/g. 23.2% TOV (trash, obviously). Lots of OREB, wasnt blocking shots...


Eeeeeh. He was OVERrated for a while. Now he is just... there. Filling minutes. He isnt trash, I guess, but definitely not a high-impact player.

He was definitely overrated, now I think he's underrated. Like he should be paid 5-10m

zimpy27 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:
Decent LEBRON, PIPM

I think he's not s favourable locker room guy but otherwise he's a decent C option I think.

Poor vet presence but is a vet. Not much playoff experience, performs worse broadly in playoffs than RS. Though he was great for Lakers in playoffs, they probably should have kept him.

There is a reason he hasnt been a 30mpg player in half a decade: he isnt worth it. Rebounding and rim defense with no scoring skills, no range, limited ability to defend in space. His utility is quite limited. He was decent for 5 games 3 years ago for LA, but like again, 21.mpg. Taking 6 FGA/g. 23.2% TOV (trash, obviously). Lots of OREB, wasnt blocking shots...


Eeeeeh. He was OVERrated for a while. Now he is just... there. Filling minutes. He isnt trash, I guess, but definitely not a high-impact player.

He was definitely overrated, now I think he's underrated. Like he should be paid 5-10m

Im too out of touch to comment on salary scale but yeah, "underrated" remains a hard sell for me for a guy who offers fairly small on-court value.

zimpy27 wrote:It's effectively the net extra possessions a player generates. I kind of think this is an important number to know whether positive or negative. You can't find this number anywhere though and no one speaks on it.

We focus on TS% which is scoring efficiency per possession. But we don't look at net possessions generated. I mean you can even create a TS% equation that accounted for net possessions:
Points / (2x (FGA - TO + STL + OREB + 0.44xFTA).


Should this be a commonly discussed stat?
Has this lack of emphasis impacted the love for role players that are big net possession gainers?

For commonly available stats it works but if we had the data it should properly be "offensive boards + turnovers forced - turnovers committed" because many turnovers forced by a defender do not count as steals.

This is the one thing ive always loved about kyrie irving. he doesnt commit live ball turnovers. for a guy who does as much bs with the ball as he does and how many long armed defenders teams throw at him, its pretty crazy he averaged less than 2 turnover per game. Chris paul was really good with this because he was forcing a lot of turnovers, drawing charges, and then not committing them himself.

Lockdown504090 wrote:This is the one thing ive always loved about kyrie irving. he doesnt commit live ball turnovers. for a guy who does as much bs with the ball as he does and how many long armed defenders teams throw at him, its pretty crazy he averaged less than 2 turnover per game. Chris paul was really good with this because he was forcing a lot of turnovers, drawing charges, and then not committing them himself.

Yeah, Kyrie is pretty good about this. Paul is a maestro in that regard, it is kind of insane, especially as a volume playmaker who doesnt shoot a ton.

It leaves out a lot though, just counting and adding together box score numbers. Forcing missed shots, forced turnovers, tough D that leads to late shots etc.
iDK, I think some of the ousted plus minus impact stats out there probably are more useful. LEBRON, RAPTOR, EPM, RAPM, DARKO etc. these are all a bit different, but I think give you a better idea how a player affects the game.

I like the idea, but it becomes a bit skewed against players with high assist numbers as those are the players who will usually have more turnovers too.

This is missing offensive fouls drawn/charges taken.

brackdan70 wrote:It leaves out a lot though, just counting and adding together box score numbers. Forcing missed shots, forced turnovers, tough D that leads to late shots etc.
iDK, I think some of the ousted plus minus impact stats out there probably are more useful. LEBRON, RAPTOR, EPM, RAPM, DARKO etc. these are all a bit different, but I think give you a better idea how a player affects the game.

I think he is trying to isolate possession impact a little more directly.

tsherkin wrote:

brackdan70 wrote:It leaves out a lot though, just counting and adding together box score numbers. Forcing missed shots, forced turnovers, tough D that leads to late shots etc.
iDK, I think some of the ousted plus minus impact stats out there probably are more useful. LEBRON, RAPTOR, EPM, RAPM, DARKO etc. these are all a bit different, but I think give you a better idea how a player affects the game.

I think he is trying to isolate possession impact a little more directly.

Right. Yeah I get that. And I see some value in that. But I think these counting stats - steals, OB, Turnovers have so much to do with other factors that don’t show up in the box score.
Maybe some value in it and added possession is certainly important…I just don’t know about it as an individual stat.