RealGM

In the most recent Kenny (Jet) interview, he addresses hand checking. I'm trying to leave the 3 sec bio out of this which is as obvious as can be and Luka in a JJ Reddick podcast stated that "fans don't realize how easy it is. I just wait until the defender leaves and then get a layup" and yes, I can link you to that if you'd like.

..... back to the point. Hand checking is also something that's seemed so obvious for decades to me, but I realize that some here
don't believe that it impacts the game or are unaware. And that makes sense because few of us
watch older games or truly remember them.

I've also connected hand checking with a lack of post game today, because frankly, you don't need it when you can face up, which I've always said handchecking allows a face up game to be easily accessible. Kenny addresses this as well.

For those of you who (for whatever reason) disagree with this, please explain why and what you see.
I just don't understand how anyone can deny it's impact on the game.

Kenny addresses this all at 3:05



and of course, Hubie as well.


Next question: Who would have benefited most from this rule in particular, excluding the 3 second violation, and who would have benefited least?
For example, Karl Malone was an awesome post up player, so would he have adjusted to today's
quicker, face up game? Personally, I've got the majority of point guards being better players as a result
and some of the slower, stronger players having a tougher time.

Handchecking is massively overstated as a cause for the 90s vs the modern game. I won't launch into the whole thing but here's 4 simple reasons why:
1) watch an average old game from the 80s or earlier 90s and you'll see very little if any handchecking, and you'll constantly see players defending on the perimeter in the usual arms-wide stance because it's a far better way to guard in space
2) the idea that players could ever put much pressure on an offensive player and actually move them has no basis; handchecking did exist and had some purposes back then (and a few guys like D Harper who used it a lot) but people are vastly overstating what it was and how 'physical' it was
3) the modern NBA game uses picks or DHOs to initiate offense most of the time and there aren't that many instances where handchecking would be relevant (see below); also players are so good at rip-throughs and clearing their own space that it's unlikely handchecking would matter much even if aggressively allowed
4) in the supposed high point of handchecking--the later 80s (Kenny Smith's high point)--the NBA was in one of its most high-scoring eras ever. There are many many reasons for why that flipped into the NBA's lowest scoring period by 2000 but the timeline definitely doens't work well for blaming it on handchecking. Have to account for why it didn’t do anything for decades and then suddenly in like 1996 started radically shoving down efficiency.

Also Kenny Smith is the #1 guy who's been promoting this idea for years, and he never goes into any more detail than what you see here. He just sort of says 'you could do so much more!' and then does that little demonstration that doesn't have almost anything to do with the modern NBA. What he's actually talking about here is point guards playing butt-to-the-basket--that's the only time you'd handcheck (as Kenny himself says) and it's an outdated way of initiating offense that was used while the PG was waiting for the bigs to establish position or the wings to get to their midrange cuts. Now everyone just uses picks or DHOs or works towards mismatches; if your PG is butt-to-basket these days something’s gone wrong with your set.

I think what Kenny doesn't realize is that handchecking was a pretty small deal for most of NBA history, then reached literally a year or two when teams started using it more when he was playing (and IMO it was focused a lot on Jordan), and then went away again. So it was a thing, but it played a small role in the general evolution of the game from the 80s up until now.

I have no idea why anybody thinks hand checking isn't part of the game anymore. Legitimately boggles my mind. Watch any game for 5 minutes and you'll see hand checking on every drive to the basket, especially in the playoffs. And you'll see the ball handler either swipe the defender's hand away or just play through the contact. But the narrative will live on because people dislike thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions.

Can someone actually point to the official rule change that took place in 2004? I'm of the understanding it was a "point of emphasis" shift for officials rather than a hard rule change. I try to google an actual rule change and can't find anything, despite dozens of articles citing the rule change.

Hand checking is still in the game. It always has been. It has been called differently. Sometimes only being allowed inside 15 feet, currently allowed against post ups etc. You can put your hand on a guy, but if you shove or make arm contact it's still a foul. It's harder with ball handling these days (and everyone now having a rip through move) to put a hand on a guy and not get a reaching foul when they're facing the basket.

I think it's over emphasized in era related discourse. Old guys want to talk about how CrAaAzy it was because it makes the adversity they faced more impressive. Fans have latched onto this and love the idea.

I think the illegal defense rule change was a far bigger structural change.

One and Done should watch those clips based on all of his commentary that 90s were less skilled and current players would have no problem adjusting to that era.

no amount of handchecking could stop lebron

Maybe a nitpick, but from my memory Karl Malone was a face-up player. So I’m confused with that.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Anyone who has played basketball knows hand checking -using force on the offensive player (not in a post up) via a hand generally on the hip- is a valuable tool for a perimeter defender. It helps force the offensive player off his line.

SNPA wrote:Anyone who has played basketball knows hand checking -using force on the offensive player (not in a post up) via a hand generally on the hip- is a valuable tool for a perimeter defender. It helps force the offensive player off his line.

And many times thos3 people are fouling even under previous NBA tolerance of handchecking, but also they should not cry when the offensive player pushes off on them

SNPA wrote:Anyone who has played basketball knows hand checking -using force on the offensive player (not in a post up) via a hand generally on the hip- is a valuable tool for a perimeter defender. It helps force the offensive player off his line.

True in theory but that’s not the point that needs support here, like Kenny Smith’s it’s skipping the entire historical analysis part. How much was forceful hand checking actually allowed in the 80s/90s, how much did players actually use it, was there ever a time players stopped doing it, how did it impact scoring, etc. Plus the real historical question is what contribution it made to the growth of the pnr spread floor game, which is actually what the major revolutionary change has been over the past 20-25 years.

Also like I mentioned above the supposed height of hand checking (late 80s-early 90s) was also one of the high points in NBA scoring and it was a great era for perimeter creators too. So if there’s a real argument about how exponentially tougher it made it to score you’d have a lot of other things to explain.

I have always been perplexed by the fascination with handchecking. In the 1991, 1992, and 1993 seasons, when men were men and Michael Jordan would have scored 50 ppg with modern rules, the league scored an average of 108 points per 100 possessions. From 2010 to 2016, when men became girlie boys because handchecking was banned, enabling sissies like Steph and LeBron to run free, the league on average scored between 104 and 107 points per 100 possessions. Say what?

The glove don't fit on the handchecking accusation. It's time to acquit.

I think most of us are unqualified to accurately describe the same impacts of hand checking in the NBA no matter how many vids we watch. Personally, it makes a huge difference to a smaller person like myself when you can feel the resistance of the defender's hands. But there are several stars that played through both eras. All of them said the NBA after hand checking is easier to score in. Most notably, Kobe Bryant, who you can argue played the majority of his career (and morer individual success) in the post-handchecking era:

https://www.slamonline.com/news/nba/kobe-bryant-european-basketball-more-physical-nba/

And of course, there's Steve Nash, who flourished coincidentally after the rule change. He tells Bill Simmons that Stern's hand checking rule "changed my career."

Similar to Kobe, he played the majority of his career post-handchecking and had more individual success. If they wanted to prop up their peers and their success, surely they would say the opposite.


Sent from my NX729J using RealGM mobile app

jojo4341 wrote:I think most of us are unqualified to accurately describe the same impacts of hand checking in the NBA no matter how many vids we watch. Personally, it makes a huge difference to a smaller person like myself when you can feel the resistance of the defender's hands. But there are several stars that played through both eras. All of them said the NBA after hand checking is easier to score in. Most notably, Kobe Bryant, who you can argue played the majority of his career (and morer individual success) in the post-handchecking era:

https://www.slamonline.com/news/nba/kobe-bryant-european-basketball-more-physical-nba/

And of course, there's Steve Nash, who flourished coincidentally after the rule change. He tells Bill Simmons that Stern's hand checking rule "changed my career."

Similar to Kobe, he played the majority of his career post-handchecking and had more individual success. If they wanted to prop up their peers and their success, surely they would say the opposite.

I wonder if what's happening with people who believe that handchecking with huge is that they're throwing together 'handchecking' and 'physicality' in general. They're very different things, and I don't think Kobe's talking about handchecking at all here. The handchecking that was more legal in the 80s-90s and that the NBA officially addressed in 2004--and that this thread and Kenny Smith's speech is about--involves putting a hand on a stationary guy before he starts his drive or right when he starts it.

Here's what Kobe said: "I’d allow for more physicality in the game. I’d allow for hand-checking, things like that. I feel like European basketball is more physical than the NBA is right now. I think the NBA needs to be more physical...where you’re not getting called for a body check or light hand check or things like that...a player touches a guy with a thumb and it’s a foul in a situation where it’s costing them the game."
Seems like he's clearly talking about players generally getting to be more physical and having a quicker whistle when they're driving or making a move. Euro ball definitely does definitely allow more contact than the NBA in that sense (at least the regular season NBA), and it's also true that there were more bodies colliding in the NBA and jostling around in the 90s (since the paint was so packed). But if you compare the two leagues it's not 'handchecking' that accounts for the difference, it's just the level of contact made while someone's in motion. That's pretty clear if you watch even a couple minutes of each league, and it checks out. But it's about how quick the whislte is on lighter touches, not about the handchecking rule itself.

Also Nash's 'life changed' when he got on a team that ran pn'r all day and had good shooters spread around that and some killer athletes running the court and diving to the cup. He's the single most important person of that era in the shift towards a pn'r-focused that specifically makes handchecking much less relevant for the average offense or defense. Nash is just super modest and always makes things about bigger picture and not himself, but it's kind of ridiculous he dind't mention how on the Suns literally every single play involved him using a pick to start the offense. (I would post videos to show the very very obvious difference between Nash's play style in 2001 vs 2004, but you said you don't think evidence is actually useful for this discussion. If you change your mind youtube can hook you up in 2 seconds).

manlisten wrote:I have no idea why anybody thinks hand checking isn't part of the game anymore. Legitimately boggles my mind. Watch any game for 5 minutes and you'll see hand checking on every drive to the basket, especially in the playoffs. And you'll see the ball handler either swipe the defender's hand away or just play through the contact. But the narrative will live on because people dislike thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions.

If handchecking exists now, anywhere near the resistance where it used to be, feel free to link with video and show.

bledredwine wrote:

manlisten wrote:I have no idea why anybody thinks hand checking isn't part of the game anymore. Legitimately boggles my mind. Watch any game for 5 minutes and you'll see hand checking on every drive to the basket, especially in the playoffs. And you'll see the ball handler either swipe the defender's hand away or just play through the contact. But the narrative will live on because people dislike thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions.

If handchecking exists now, anywhere near the resistance where it used to be, feel free to link with video and show.

You might be not wrong here, good chance that the handchecking that happens now is different than what happened then. But that's not really an argument in itself--and more importantly it seems telling that you responded to the one small and shaky post in this thread instead of any other ones.

I'd like to see your point supported with some evidence that handchecking was happening a bunch in the 80s-90s in ways that majorly impacted things, and also some kind of chain of reasoning for why it directly led to the game changing like it has since 2000.

EDIT: here's the first video of a 2024 PO game I looked at, like 3 of the first 6 or 7 plays show pretty clear handchecking (skip the first couple). If you watch the whole thing Oubre's putting hands all over Brunson whenever he's checking him on the perimeter.


Also just watched the first 3 minutes of this as a crosscheck and it actually looks like there's a lot less handchecking on face-up attacks on MJ than on Brunson above:

I've posted this b4, I just think It's funny as hell.

manlisten wrote:I have no idea why anybody thinks hand checking isn't part of the game anymore. Legitimately boggles my mind. Watch any game for 5 minutes and you'll see hand checking on every drive to the basket, especially in the playoffs. And you'll see the ball handler either swipe the defender's hand away or just play through the contact. But the narrative will live on because people dislike thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions.

Nailed it. Hand checking is basically just letting the defense play more physically without calling a reach in or blocking foul on every play. It's basically legal in the playoffs.

HotelVitale wrote:Also just watched the first 3 minutes of this as a crosscheck and it actually looks like there's a lot less handchecking on face-up attacks on MJ than on Brunson above:

Watch on YouTube

You can watch A LOT of MJ highlights looking for the smoking gun of a handcheck before you actually find one. I watched every Bulls game in the Nineties. Literally, I did. So believe me when I say that dirty play in the Nineties was no myth ... but the importance of handchecking was. Here, watch The Glove. Body positioning and footwork. That was great defense now and that is great defense today. It never was about the hands.

Handchecking, carrying, travelling, moving screens, jersey grabs, getting intobshooters landing space, kicking legs out

All of these thinghs have somethingh in common, they are relatively subjective rules and you cannot review every play so a lot of the times they will be mistakenly called or not called depending on the ref biases and what they can see on real time

Ice Man wrote:

HotelVitale wrote:Also just watched the first 3 minutes of this as a crosscheck and it actually looks like there's a lot less handchecking on face-up attacks on MJ than on Brunson above:

Watch on YouTube

You can watch A LOT of MJ highlights looking for the smoking gun of a handcheck before you actually find one. I watched every Bulls game in the Nineties. Literally, I did. So believe me when I say that dirty play in the Nineties was no myth ... but the importance of handchecking was. Here, watch The Glove. Body positioning and footwork. That was great defense now and that is great defense today. It never was about the hands.

Watch on YouTube

If you're going to say something like that, back it up with a video of Jordan that has no hand checking... I don't know if I've ever seen one.

What I can't find is any hand checking in that Brunson video. I don't think that a lot of guys hear know what hand checking is, or maybe they're just in denial. It's confusing.

What many of you don't understand is that you could provide resistance back as a defender, which made it considerably more challenging to get your shot off in an open position.

Maybe you guys are confusing riding somebody on the hip, where you put the outside of the hand (not inside) on the hip to follow, but that's nothing like hand checking. It's literally called riding on the hip.

You were allowed to PUSH with the forearm in the post back then. Players were actually taught to defend with one hand on the back, pushing the ball handler back and the other to the side, to balance and defend the passing lane.

Anyway, here.

First of all, the blatant lie that you can watch Jordan and not find any hand checking.


:47, right away resistance, hand checking followed by what would be an easy call by today's standards
1:05, right afterwards, right forearm of Kemp, AS they were taught to defend back then (this is hand checking btw) would be a foul today

1:20, right afterwards, once again

So don't lie. You can literally choose any Jordan video and we can pick out all of the hand checking together.


:14 bumped, obviously a foul today. :22 right after, nudged with a hand check out of bounds, no foul. No complaint, part of the 90s game (sorry to say) :50 hand on back the entire time

And these are two random videos I just chose off the top of my head. Do this for any 90s video and you'll learn about hand checking. It's about the forearm on the back, and resistance. It's hard to notice unless you look for it and actually compare the resistance from then and now. Then you notice that it's certainly more free to the rim now than it was. But that should be common sense as the game has also opened up anyway and we have the 3 second violati


Meanwhile, that Brunson video had 0 resistance.

Funniest thing about this is I have not heard one interview where they deny the impact of hand checking. Every player has called it tough to play against and every new player (international in particular) has talked about how easy it is to score in the league now. Only RealGM posters seem to think otherwise- go figure.