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Right out of the other https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2435248 thread here is a question that has been discussed here dozens, if not houndreds of times, but i dont recall a poll that was as simple as this one. The question is - do all rings count the same for you, or do you take into account what the winner had to overcome, how much an underdog they were, how many obstacles they had to overcome, how heroic the individual performance was? The question arose specifically in the context of assessing a players legacy, so lets view it for the individual. Curious to see what the majority thinks here. Just as some examples, some rings that might have been earned easily - or harder:

Dirk / Mavs beating a very strong Portland team, the defending champion Lakers and then the OKC superteam, to face the Miami superfriends (who mocked Dirk for his illness, "coughgate").
Kawhi in his one year stint with the Raptors
Giannis' legendary title run
Jokic carrying the Nuggets to a title, making scrubs look like all stars
Steph winning without most of his all star help (and without KD)

compared to

2017, 2018 Golden State Superteam
The Miami Superteam with three top 10 players and elite roleplayers
The Cleveland superteam with Kyrie, Love and great roleplayers
The Lakers superteam with two top 5 players on the same team

I'm sure i will get plenty animated responses but mostly watching out for the poll results for later reference here.

Ring is a ring is a ring. Period.

since when Bosh who make the all-nba team only once in his career(2007) was a top 10 player?

Who was the elite role players of the heat and cavs btw?

So many other thing wrong,like Wade was no longer a top 10 player in 2012,much less come playoffs time in 2013

Homer38 wrote:since when Bosh who make the all-nba team only once in his career(2007) was a top 10 player?

Who was the elite role players of the heat and cavs btw?

So many other thing wrong,like Wade was no longer a top 10 player in 2012,much less come playoffs time in 2013

not gonna engage in the same discussion over and over. Just looking at the poll results gives me a feeling that i'm in good company.

If all rings matter then Kobe has 5 rings ... Some say because his not a lead guy he only has 2

ofc not. you want to see a champion face the toughest challenges, it makes the accomplishment much more satisfying and worthy.

kawhi beat an #1 seed bucks team w/ MVP Giannis down 0-2 and won. he beat a 76ers team with embiid, butler, ben simmons. then he beat a defending champion warriors team albeit without kevin durant

compare that to playing an 8th seed pelicans team w/o jrue, a grizzlies team with no tony allen and conley playing with a fractured orbital, a rockets team w/ no beverly with internal turmoil (dwight vs harden vs josh smith vs mchale), and then a cavs team w/o kyrie and kevin love

yeah the 2014-15 warriors and the 2018-19 raptors are both champions, but how can you say one is more significant than the other.

imagine an a nfl team winning a superbowl by beating every team they face in a blowout because their starting qb was injured. like sure theyre champions but it feels empty and unfulfilling.

bovice wrote:ofc not. you want to see a champion face the toughest challenges, it makes the accomplishment much more satisfying and worthy.

kawhi beat an #1 seed bucks team w/ MVP Giannis down 0-2 and won. he beat a 76ers team with embiid, butler, ben simmons. then he beat a defending champion warriors team albeit without kevin durant

compare that to playing an 8th seed pelicans team w/o jrue, a grizzlies team with no tony allen and conley playing with a fractured orbital, a rockets team w/ no beverly with internal turmoil (dwight vs harden vs josh smith vs mchale), and then a cavs team w/o kyrie and kevin love

yeah the 2014-15 warriors and the 2018-19 raptors are both champions, but how can you say one is more significant than the other.

imagine an a nfl team winning a superbowl by beating every team they face in a blowout because their starting qb was injured. like sure theyre champions but it feels empty and unfulfilling.

Fortunately i'm not trying to invent a metric to rank rings. I just ask a yes/no question - and i think we agree that the value of a ring varies vastly in assessing a players legacy.

Only for the first 20 years. After that everyone forgets how they got them and just ring counts.

No, we can use context to examine how much a player contributed to his team winning and who his teammates were.

The 2011 Mavs, 2023 Nuggets, 2003 Spurs, 1998 Bulls and 1994 Rockets don’t make the playoffs without Dirk/Jokic/Duncan/Jordan/Hakeem.

The 2016 Warriors won 73 games without KD, and the 2015 Warriors won a title without KD.

That’s why I have Dirk/Jokic/Duncan/Jordan/Hakeem ranked ahead of KD.

Wait the lakers were a superteam in 2020? Thats news to me considering people had us losing to the Trailblazers and then when Rockets went up 1-0 they had us losing to them as well.

Also during that 2020 season people were criticizing us for not winning against the top teams as well. Until we went and beat Bucks and the Clippers right before the season ended abruptly.

But yeah not a single soul said that 2020 was a superteam. We were defensively stout that mainly relied on our duo to create most of our offense.

Tracymcgoaty wrote:Wait the lakers were a superteam in 2020? Thats news to me considering people had us losing to the Trailblazers and then when Rockets went up 1-0 they had us losing to them as well.

Also during that 2020 season people were criticizing us for not winning against the top teams as well. Until we went and beat Bucks and the Clippers right before the season ended abruptly.

But yeah not a single soul said that 2020 was a superteam. We were defensively stout that mainly relied on our duo to create most of our offense.

Maybe he referrring to Kobe/Shaq Lakers super team Or Kobe/Pau Superteam

SlimShady83 wrote:

Tracymcgoaty wrote:Wait the lakers were a superteam in 2020? Thats news to me considering people had us losing to the Trailblazers and then when Rockets went up 1-0 they had us losing to them as well.

Also during that 2020 season people were criticizing us for not winning against the top teams as well. Until we went and beat Bucks and the Clippers right before the season ended abruptly.

But yeah not a single soul said that 2020 was a superteam. We were defensively stout that mainly relied on our duo to create most of our offense.

Maybe he referrring to Kobe/Shaq Lakers super team Or Kobe/Pau Superteam

Oh wow going all the way back then. Well yeah i guess they could be considered a superteam.

I think 01-02 they went 15-1 only beating teams with 50+ wins.

Great duo and a great supporting cast.

Rings are the ultimate supercharge to a player's legacy and all-time rank. That's whether you were the best player on the team or the sixth man, etc. For every player on the team, it says, "Whatever you needed to do and not do to reach the pinnacle of the NBA this year, you did and didn't do it." But obviously all rings are not the same for all players. I can't believe anyone would vote yes in this poll.

And i think that Nuggets team is getting disrespected by saying Jokic carried them. Like extremely disrespected.

Nuggets had 6 players averaging double digits coupled with great defense.

Murray was on a all time run averaging 26/7 on 47/40/92 splits.

They were shooting it extremely well.

So Jokic didn't carry them to anything. That was a great team with Jokic at the forefront. We've seen Jokic playing with scrubs in the playoffs in 2022. they lost 4-1 againt the warriors.

Like there is no need to disrespect that team in order to uplift Jokic. It reeks of an agenda. Jokic doesn't need that he's already great no need to lie.


By your own metric. Great duo and a great supporting cast = superteam.

Nuggets a superteam?

Tracymcgoaty wrote:And i think that Nuggets team is getting disrespected by saying Jokic carried them. Like extremely disrespected.

Nuggets had 6 players averaging double digits coupled with great defense.

Murray was on a all time run averaging 26/7 on 47/40/92 splits.

They were shooting it extremely well.

So Jokic didn't carry them to anything. That was a great team with Jokic at the forefront. We've seen Jokic playing with scrubs in the playoffs in 2022. they lost 4-1 againt the warriors.

Like there is no need to disrespect that team in order to uplift Jokic. It reeks of an agenda. Jokic doesn't need that he's already great no need to lie.

You're missing a lot of shades of grey here. In 2022, he was playing with guys who were non-rotation players and even non-NBA players. In 2023, he was playing without any Top 100 or Top 150 players of all-time. By championship standards, that is a carry. Yes, guys 2-7 all contributed significantly. Probably don't win a title if they don't.

But.

His PSPER was 3rd all time for a champ ('54 Mikan and '91 Jordan)

His PSBPM was 2nd all time for a champ ('91 Jordan)

His PSWS was 4th all-time for a champ ('03 Duncan, '12 James, '13 James)

It was a monster postseason following a monster regular season. And definitely fair to say he "carried" the team, if any player ever "carries" a champion.

scrabbarista wrote:

Tracymcgoaty wrote:And i think that Nuggets team is getting disrespected by saying Jokic carried them. Like extremely disrespected.

Nuggets had 6 players averaging double digits coupled with great defense.

Murray was on a all time run averaging 26/7 on 47/40/92 splits.

They were shooting it extremely well.

So Jokic didn't carry them to anything. That was a great team with Jokic at the forefront. We've seen Jokic playing with scrubs in the playoffs in 2022. they lost 4-1 againt the warriors.

Like there is no need to disrespect that team in order to uplift Jokic. It reeks of an agenda. Jokic doesn't need that he's already great no need to lie.

You're missing a lot of shades of grey here. In 2022, he was playing with guys who were non-rotation players and even non-NBA players. In 2023, he was playing without any Top 100 or Top 150 players of all-time. By championship standards, that is a carry. Yes, guys 2-6 all contributed significantly. Probably don't win a title if they don't.

But.

His PSPER was 3rd all time for a champ ('54 Mikan and '91 Jordan)

His PSBPM was 2nd all time for a champ ('91 Jordan)

His PSWS was 4th all-time for a champ ('03 Duncan, '12 James, '13 James)

It was a monster postseason following a monster regular season. And definitely fair to say he "carried" the team, if any player ever "carries" a champion.

You can't call it a "carry" when Jamal Murray played like an All-NBA player that entire postseason. That is completely disrespectful to what he did.

Big J wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:

Tracymcgoaty wrote:And i think that Nuggets team is getting disrespected by saying Jokic carried them. Like extremely disrespected.

Nuggets had 6 players averaging double digits coupled with great defense.

Murray was on a all time run averaging 26/7 on 47/40/92 splits.

They were shooting it extremely well.

So Jokic didn't carry them to anything. That was a great team with Jokic at the forefront. We've seen Jokic playing with scrubs in the playoffs in 2022. they lost 4-1 againt the warriors.

Like there is no need to disrespect that team in order to uplift Jokic. It reeks of an agenda. Jokic doesn't need that he's already great no need to lie.

You're missing a lot of shades of grey here. In 2022, he was playing with guys who were non-rotation players and even non-NBA players. In 2023, he was playing without any Top 100 or Top 150 players of all-time. By championship standards, that is a carry. Yes, guys 2-6 all contributed significantly. Probably don't win a title if they don't.

But.

His PSPER was 3rd all time for a champ ('54 Mikan and '91 Jordan)

His PSBPM was 2nd all time for a champ ('91 Jordan)

His PSWS was 4th all-time for a champ ('03 Duncan, '12 James, '13 James)

It was a monster postseason following a monster regular season. And definitely fair to say he "carried" the team, if any player ever "carries" a champion.

You can't call it a "carry" when Jamal Murray played like an All-NBA player that entire postseason. That is completely disrespectful to what he did.

Apologies.

According to Patrick McCaw they are all the same.

A ring is a ring is a ring. Anyone who says otherwise cheers for the team(s) that didn't win them.

scrabbarista wrote:

Tracymcgoaty wrote:And i think that Nuggets team is getting disrespected by saying Jokic carried them. Like extremely disrespected.

Nuggets had 6 players averaging double digits coupled with great defense.

Murray was on a all time run averaging 26/7 on 47/40/92 splits.

They were shooting it extremely well.

So Jokic didn't carry them to anything. That was a great team with Jokic at the forefront. We've seen Jokic playing with scrubs in the playoffs in 2022. they lost 4-1 againt the warriors.

Like there is no need to disrespect that team in order to uplift Jokic. It reeks of an agenda. Jokic doesn't need that he's already great no need to lie.

You're missing a lot of shades of grey here. In 2022, he was playing with guys who were non-rotation players and even non-NBA players. In 2023, he was playing without any Top 100 or Top 150 players of all-time. By championship standards, that is a carry. Yes, guys 2-6 all contributed significantly. Probably don't win a title if they don't.

But.

His PER was 3rd all time for a champ ('54 Mikan and '91 Jordan)

His BPM was 2nd all time for a champ ('91 Jordan)

His WS was 4th all-time for a champ ('03 Duncan, '12 James, '13 James)

It was a monster postseason following a monster regular season. And definitely fair to say he "carried" the team, if any player ever "carries" a champion.

Thats my point lol. Dude called the 2023 team a bunch of scrubs but we saw Jokic in 2022 playing with actual scrubs and he lost 4-1.

And the thing about him not playing wth a top 100 or top 150

It doesn't take away from how great those players were lol. Jamal averaging 26/7 on absurd percentages shouldn't get swept under the rug just because he's not a top whatever player. he had an all time run.

So no i dont think it's fair to say Jokic carried. Especially as a Laker fan considering i had front row seats watching Murray and MPJ torch us the entire series.

I just looked up his averages against us. The **** averaged 32/6/5 on 52/40 splits. That is absurd.

Thats like me saying Lebron carried a bunch of scrubs in 2016.