What does Jokic have to do to be considered GOAT of all time?

[playa-hater]

Is it even possible? just last season I entertained the Idea of saying the Joker should easily end up top 10 and yet so many cringed when I said that. But my god, how many years of such a ridiculous peak does a man need?? Many would say his level will have to be sustained for quite a while. Yes, I agree. But Jokic's game does not rely on athleticism so he may very age like fine wine.

When making A list of All-time greats, you start with Russell and Wilt. I always hate including them mainly because 99% of us have never even seen them play live. The Film/videos are extremely limited for viewing as well. Everyone knows they are the OG's. But for now at least, everyone should Omit them because that generation to ours is just too hard to compare.

Then You have Kareem. Certainly, a worthy GOAT selection. The Joker would have to sustain greatness for at least 5+ years IMO. But what makes Kareem - Jokic interesting is the level of impact each had on winning. I feel an argument can be made already the Jokic is in that league with Kareem. Going on in some chronological order. You have Bird and Magic. They both deserve to be called the saviors of the NBA and perhaps made the single biggest impact ever. The Jokic didn't do for the league what Magic and Bird did, but that shouldn't be a big factor for GOAT debate. I already think Jokic's abilities and impact are a good chunk better than Magic. and While I love Bird and his similar peak (was robbed of his 4th straight MVP and given to Magic to get his 1st) and Bird's style to Jokic, Bird just couldn't maintain any longevity due to his health issues. But Jokic is really like Larry but the Center version. The next is the most underrated player who is often left out of the top 10 IMO Hakeem. 2 totally different dominating centers. I always thought Hakeem is/was the best 2 way playing center ever. Still think he can literally out play any great center in their matchups. (especially in a series) Yet maybe the Joker's ability to enhance teammates to a higher level puts him = or even above the dream. Debatable, but there is at least a good debate IMO.

Now we have the elephant in the room, Jordan. But instead of regurgitating all of Jordan's vast accomplishments. I will just ask a few questions instead.

Is it even fathomable? Can Jokic reach MJ's height with potentially 5 more years of MVP level play? Does anyone even factor MJ's off the court success and impact he made in making the BB a worldly watched game? Should that matter? are we going to use the rings debate against Jokic? what If the Joker has a few more MVPs? (possible)

Shaq? Most dominating player at one point. How does his impact compare to Jokers? If either came out of college together and you know what you know now back then, who would you draft?

You also have the Kobe, Duncan and of course the All-time great Lebron to consider. I think Jokic's peak is already > Kobe's best years and same for Duncan.

what about Lebron's?? Can he catch him in an all-time standings?? Is it also unfathomable? How many years would it take at Joker's current level to do it?

Sorry for the long post, but even with all the Joker threads going on right now, I think it is a legit question. I would expect answers being all over the place as usual, But want to hear the verdict.

Can Jokic end up being the GOAT??

[Sgt Major]

Turn back the time and stop MJ from being born.


It's impossible, MJ is the GOAT of all sports all time and these discussions are pointless.

[JRoy]

Win more titles/MVPs

[tsherkin]

At this stage of his career and on the team he's got, I don't think the chance is really there. Most people heavily invest in team success when evaluating the upper crust of NBA elite, and he just doesn't have enough... barring a Kareem-like pairing with his version of Magic which adds a whole crapload of titles later on, maybe. Coupled to some serious longevity. He's garnering recognition for his play, especially his offense, but there will be hordes of people who won't rate him above guys who had those superior team contexts, right?

But yeah, you have to look at guys like Lebron (crazy stats, crazy longevity, tons of Finals appearances and 4 rings, loads of MVPs, two-way play), Kareem (6 MVPs, 6 titles, crazy longevity, two-way play), Jordan (5 MVPs, 6 titles, crazy narrative, dominant peak, two-way play), Bill Russell (5 MVPs, a thousand billion rings, greatest defensive dynasty in league history, player-coach w titles) and say "eeeeeh, passing those guys isn't super likely." And then you have to look at Duncan (2 MVPS, 5 titles, extended dominance over time, ATG defender), maybe a guy like Moses (1 ring, 3 MVPs, couple Finals trips, dominant offensive rebounding, excellent longevity). Hell, you could look a bit at Steph (2 MVPs, 4 titles as primary guy, at the forefront of changing perceptions of how the game works, couple scoring titles, hella efficient, etc).

As you get into the top-20 all-time and above, the resumes are INSANE, and the player quality is incredible. At some point, there's a requirement for things beyond the player's own actual ability to line up and present them the opportunity they need to stand next to the other guys. WE're talking about guys who changed the game and crushed it to win a ton in the top-10, right? And certainly as we push into GOAT and peri-GOAT territory, it's ridonkulous.

So I don't really see it unless Jokic rips off a 3-peat or something.

[playa-hater]

Turn back the time and stop MJ from being born.


It's impossible, MJ is the GOAT of all sports all time and these discussions are pointless.

Why would it be impossible?? Isn't there at least an argument that the Jokers' last 4 years is as dominate, even if it is a different way, comparable to Jordan's?? Nothing wrong with saying unlikely perhaps, but to say Impossible sounds a bit closed minded.

[OriginalRed]

Win more titles. Like, that's it lol.

[playa-hater]

At this stage of his career and on the team he's got, I don't think the chance is really there. Most people heavily invest in team success when evaluating the upper crust of NBA elite, and he just doesn't have enough... barring a Kareem-like pairing with his version of Magic which adds a whole crapload of titles later on, maybe. Coupled to some serious longevity. He's garnering recognition for his play, especially his offense, but there will be hordes of people who won't rate him above guys who had those superior team contexts, right?

But yeah, you have to look at guys like Lebron (crazy stats, crazy longevity, tons of Finals appearances and 4 rings, loads of MVPs, two-way play), Kareem (6 MVPs, 6 titles, crazy longevity, two-way play), Jordan (5 MVPs, 6 titles, crazy narrative, dominant peak, two-way play), Bill Russell (5 MVPs, a thousand billion rings, greatest defensive dynasty in league history, player-coach w titles) and say "eeeeeh, passing those guys isn't super likely." And then you have to look at Duncan (2 MVPS, 5 titles, extended dominance over time, ATG defender), maybe a guy like Moses (1 ring, 3 MVPs, couple Finals trips, dominant offensive rebounding, excellent longevity). Hell, you could look a bit at Steph (2 MVPs, 4 titles as primary guy, at the forefront of changing perceptions of how the game works, couple scoring titles, hella efficient, etc).

As you get into the top-20 all-time and above, the resumes are INSANE, and the player quality is incredible. At some point, there's a requirement for things beyond the player's own actual ability to line up and present them the opportunity they need to stand next to the other guys. WE're talking about guys who changed the game and crushed it to win a ton in the top-10, right? And certainly as we push into GOAT and peri-GOAT territory, it's ridonkulous.

So I don't really see it unless Jokic rips off a 3-peat or something.

Think most of your points are quite fair. But it does seem a bit unfair to Jokic if he doesn't get paired up with a truly great teammate. He can only do so much in a team game. But Denver should go all out and find Jokic a stud to team up with. Is there a single GOAT level player that didn't have a stud? Hakeem is the only one that comes to mind.

[nikster]

Maintain this level of play while he wins several more titles

[Big J]

It’s too late, he’s lost too many playoff series at this point. MJs the GOAT because he never lost after he broke through.

[-Luke-]

For users on the player-comparison board for their regular ranking lists: keep playing at that level for five more years or so.
For casual fans: Win three or four more rings.

He would be considered. In both cases that probably wouldn't be enough. He will not reach LeBron's combination of peak/accomplishments and all-time longevity. He will not reach MJ's status as the greatest legend of all time.

[tsherkin]

Think most of your points are quite fair. But it does seem a bit unfair to Jokic if he doesn't get paired up with a truly great teammate. He can only do so much in a team game. But Denver should go all out and find Jokic a stud to team up with. Is there a single GOAT level player that didn't have a stud? Hakeem is the only one that comes to mind.

It is what it is. And Hakeem wasn't really a GOAT-level player, but like 2011 Dirk, his guys came through for him in the playoffs.

But as you say, it is unfair. But that's how it works. He's a brilliant player, but hardly the only one to languish on a team which hasn't proven capable of putting a legit second star next to him. And when the accolades stack up as high as they do for his peers, it becomes more and more challenging to justify him above the others, right? Even if it doesn't necessarily treat in context as much. But offensively, the argument is there. The thing is, a bunch of these guys are particularly high-end on the other side of the ball as well, so the gap is smaller than it might look strictly from the offensive standpoint. Jokic isn't an All-D guy, let alone an ATG defender, and that also limits any sort of "ahh, not enough titles, BUT" kind of argument relative to most of his competition, right? And the lone real exception at that level is Russell, whose D shut the league down for a decade, so the argument for Jokic's one-sided candidacy isn't there over top of that with 11 rings.

You know what I mean?

[og15]

It’s too late, he’s lost too many playoff series at this point. MJs the GOAT because he never lost after he broke through.

Well, that can't be THE reason:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1995-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-magic.html

[Bornstellar]

Greatest of All Time of All Time?

Simple answer: Win 3-4 more rings

[nomansland]

He won't. People are always going to rag on his defense.

[Big J]

It’s too late, he’s lost too many playoff series at this point. MJs the GOAT because he never lost after he broke through.

Well, that can't be THE reason:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1995-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-magic.html

Baseball legs.

[levon]

The GOATOAT? Are you waiting for Goatoat?

[Bergmaniac]

Nothing would ever be good enough for this for the Jordan worshippers, LOL.

[GoBobs]

He needs to win back to back to back, twice.

[pipfan]

I think Jokic could end up in the top 5, but can't catch KAJ/LBJ/MJ. I do see the point about Wilt/Russell being hard to measure

But, I think he can pass Bird/Magic/Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem/Curry/Kobe, but he does have to win more

[TheGeneral99]

Well the benchmarks are Lebron and Jordan. Here is the breakdown:

1) Stats - Jokic now in his prime is arguably the best statistical player of all-time in the modern era, but he still needs to do it for a few more years. Longevity is important and Jokic needs to get on the top 10 of all-time in points/assists/rebounds etc.

2) MVPs - Jokic has 3 MVPs while Jordan has 5 MVPs and Lebron has 4 MVPs. So Jokic needs probably 1 more MVP to get in the conversation.

3) Championships - Jokic has 1 while Lebron has 4 and Jordan has 6.

I think if you look at the combination of stats, MVPs and championships he can get in that conversation.

Obviously context is important as well - so far Jokic hasn't had the help that Lebron and Jordan had in terms of a supporting cast. His 2023 finals run was one of the more dominant ones we've seen and he didn't have another top 5-10 player as his #2 option.

In my opinion if Jokic wins 1 more MVP, 1 more championship and finishes top 10 of all-time in points, assists and rebounds, I think he deserves to be in the conversation with Lebron and Jordan. Beyond that you can start making arguments for him as the legitimate GOAT.