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Wouldn't a skyhook benefit a Jokic or a Wemby?

D.Brasco wrote:

Wouldn't a skyhook benefit a Jokic or a Wemby?

Considering Jokic is having the best offensive peak ever, I think what he's doing is working.

If Wemby had a skyhook it would be absurdly unguardable.

Black Jack wrote:If Wemby had a skyhook it would be absurdly unguardable.

Better for his long term durability as well, as opposed to him floating around past the 3 point line and driving in.

They aren’t exactly “sky” hooks, but you know who shoots a lot of hook shots?

Cade. Really. It’s pretty cool.

D.Brasco wrote:

Black Jack wrote:If Wemby had a skyhook it would be absurdly unguardable.

Better for his long term durability as well, as opposed to him floating around past the 3 point line and driving in.

You do still have to be able to get close enough position and move people to be in a generally good sky hook range. I'm not sure I'd say that Wemby does that well enough at the moment for it to be a focus for him.

Great shot though.

Kareem is not GOAT because he didn't shoot FTs grandma style

Here is the one flaw that somehow is never brought up related to the skyhook. How did Kareem lead the league in FG percentage only once and is currently 28th on the All time list if he used the best shot of all time? Jokic is currently direct behind him at 29 while also shooting 3 pointers and will most likely still pass him this season, so he seems to be doing pretty well without it.

bkkrh wrote:Here is the one flaw that somehow is never brought up related to the skyhook. How did Kareem lead the league in FG percentage only once and is currently 28th on the All time list if he used the best shot of all time? Jokic is currently direct behind him at 29 while also shooting 3 pointers and will most likely still pass him this season, so he seems to be doing pretty well without it.

When people say the "best shot of all time", they are saying the best shot that admits of some level of complexity. Actual shot-shots beyond mere field goal attempts.

Obviously, a layup or dunk is going to better with respect to strict FG percentage, particularly if the majority are bunnies or relatively uncontested shots, like most people that top an all-time FG percentage list.

Regarding Jokic, if you look at percentage relative to league, Kareem is actually higher than Jokic has been to-date on two-pointers (TS+ 119 vs. 116), despite Jokic not playing into his declining years yet.

It's not a sky hook but, Zubac main shot is a hook.

Bush4Ever wrote:

bkkrh wrote:Here is the one flaw that somehow is never brought up related to the skyhook. How did Kareem lead the league in FG percentage only once and is currently 28th on the All time list if he used the best shot of all time? Jokic is currently direct behind him at 29 while also shooting 3 pointers and will most likely still pass him this season, so he seems to be doing pretty well without it.

When people say the "best shot of all time", they are saying the best shot that admits of some level of complexity. Actual shot-shots beyond mere field goal attempts.

Obviously, a layup or dunk is going to better with respect to strict FG percentage, particularly if the majority are bunnies or relatively uncontested shots, like most people that top an all-time FG percentage list.

Regarding Jokic, if you look at percentage relative to league, Kareem is actually higher than Jokic has been to-date on two-pointers (TS+ 119 vs. 116), despite Jokic not playing into his declining years yet.

Yes, I get that. I mean it more from the perspective that over the years a lot of old school media people have kinda turned it into this mythical shot, but if you look at Kareem's averages it's not that unique. He has a great field goal percentage, no doubt, but it is not mind blowing. He doesn't have any mindblowing averages like Wilt shooting 68% while scoring 24 points, or Artis Gilmore averaging over 60% 6 seasons in a row in the early 80s.

At the same time you have quite a few players that put up similar averages in their primes while not completely relying on dunks and layups like McHale or Barkley. You have some modern examples like Sabonis, who also take 3 pointers. Giannis has developed a decent mid range game and still has super high averages while still being a horrible mid range shooter.

Related to Jokic, you are right of course that he has no declining years yet, but you also need to factor in that Kareem came into the league as a 4 season college player and 1st overall pick, that was almost immediatelly the best player in the league, which was also related at that point to a watered down talent pool due to the NBA/ABA situation. Jokic on the other side was an unknown, raw, 20 year old 2nd rounder from Europe. I also don't really get why their TS+ matter. It's not really a surprise in that sense to me, since yes, players shoot way less mid range shots today, but that wasn't Kareem's typical way to score anyhow. If I simply look at 2 point percentage, which would make the most sense in general, Joker completely blows Kareem out of the water with .610% vs .560% and there it doesn't matter at all if I factor in prime years or not, since Kareem never shot better than .604% from the field in any season.

And that's not meant to crap on Kareem or the Skyhook, I see him as 3rd best player of all time. I just simply see it as a shot that worked really well for him in his era and especially his type of body, but I definitely don't see it as some magical wondershot and think a lot of oldschool media people and fans have a romanticized view of it.

There were quite a few big men the last 20 years that made the mistake to completely rely on their athleticism and never developed some reliable way of scoring besides that, like Dwight Howard as the posterchild example. But I personally would say either developing a solid post game or a jump shot would have made more sense for him or any of the other players than to start shooting skyhooks.

The shot works well, but it requires a fair amount of specific practice. Kareem had been doing that since like the fifth grade. That sort of time investment eventually pays dividends, especially on a frame like that.

Jokic doesn't need it. He has every hook and all the footwork he needs to get off his various shots. It's not something which would do much for a guy who is already shoot over 62% inside the arc to begin with for like the 4th straight season. He isn't the guy who needs a shot of that sort.

The sky hook is an inefficient 2. It's like a mid range shot, but worse because you never get fouled on it. Kareem is just yelling at clouds.

Black Jack wrote:If Wemby had a skyhook it would be absurdly unguardable.

that's the entire point.

Big J wrote:The sky hook is an inefficient 2. It's like a mid range shot, but worse because you never get fouled on it. Kareem is just yelling at clouds.

Kareem was able to make that at like 50%. That's quite a bit above league average in the zones where he shot it. He still also ran in transition, he got various dunks, he drew fouls. Kareem was a 60.2% TS guy with LA and 59.2% TS guy on his career. Even without ANY changes, he would still be efficient today.

This is not a valid argument.

Johnny Bball wrote:

Black Jack wrote:If Wemby had a skyhook it would be absurdly unguardable.

that's the entire point.

His too busy shooting 3's.

bkkrh wrote:Here is the one flaw that somehow is never brought up related to the skyhook. How did Kareem lead the league in FG percentage only once and is currently 28th on the All time list if he used the best shot of all time? Jokic is currently direct behind him at 29 while also shooting 3 pointers and will most likely still pass him this season, so he seems to be doing pretty well without it.

He was in the top five in FG% for 15 seasons and finished seventh in 3 more seasons.

If Kareem didn't have the skyhook, his FG% probably would have been higher because he wouldn't be taking as many shots away from the rim. But it's unlikely his team would have effectively replaced those missing shots in the short midrange.

bkkrh wrote: He doesn't have any mindblowing averages like Wilt shooting 68% while scoring 24 points,

True... but Wilt did that on 14.2 FGA/g, and made his bones more with the 10.8 FTA/g he averaged on those 14.2 FGA/g (.761 FTr), in 45.5 mpg. That's 19.1 PTS36 with an INSANE draw rate, which is the actually interesting part of that. Of course, Wilt was amazing, and I don't want to diminish that, but volume and physical tools played huge roles in how that happened. Kareem didn't have Wilt's power.

or Artis Gilmore averaging over 60% 6 seasons in a row in the early 80s.

Sure. But again, power base and never more than 10.8 FGA/g. It's far easier to shoot a higher percentage on lower volume. Witness DeAndre Jordan, Jaxson Hayes, Daniel Gafford, etc, etc.

And that's not meant to crap on Kareem or the Skyhook, I see him as 3rd best player of all time. I just simply see it as a shot that worked really well for him in his era and especially his type of body, but I definitely don't see it as some magical wondershot and think a lot of oldschool media people and fans have a romanticized view of it.

It is a good shot to have. Obviously, the utility of putting that much effort into its development very much depends on the rest of a player's skillset. But it is high-percentage, it's very difficult to contest/block and if you've got the height and are shooting from that range anyway, it IS a solid choice.

But it is ALSO worth remembering that Kareem did considerably more than JUST shooting that shot. He moved well without the ball, ran reasonably well in transition many years (especially with Magic), he had a face-up game as a younger guy, he added some range as he aged... he did a little of everything.

DWIGHT could have really used the skyhook, or really any touch away from the rim. Jokic, meh, he's fine. Wemby could use some kind of mid-range game and is well-suited to the style which the skyhook requires. But he may find his own way as well.

It isn't a requirement. It's just one option available.

Embiid, if he could ever get healthy, would benefit from learning to shoot the sky hook.