So where are we at with the KAT trade?

[Sealab2024]

The early returns were certainly one sided as KAT fit in perfectly with the Knicks offense and teams hadn't figured out how to attack them defensively. Meanwhile Randle looked like a terrible fit, DDV seemed either uninterested and the wolves were worse on both offense and defense.

Fast forward to April and it seems the Knicks have plateaued, they can't beat top teams and they're having the same problems defensively that Minny had for years with Towns at the 5 and the fans are batting around trading KAT for Giannis or even KD. Meanwhile since the all star break Julius has completely switched up his game into a full on facilitator and secondary scoring option so well that there's now serious talk of a 2-3 year extension, DDV has got into his role off the bench and is back to his dawg days, The wolves are red Hot and on top of that the Pistons 1st round pick that pretty much nobody thought would convey is almost certain to do so. In a year the wolves don't own their own #1 pick due to the Gobert trade.

I'm calling it a draw. If the wolves resign Randle to a friendly extension I might give it to the Wolves.

[taikibansei]

The early returns were certainly one sided as KAT fit in perfectly with the Knicks offense and teams hadn't figured out how to attack them defensively. Meanwhile Randle looked like a terrible fit, DDV seemed either uninterested and the wolves were worse on both offense and defense.

Fast forward to April and it seems the Knicks have plateaued, they can't beat top teams and they're having the same problems defensively that Minny had for years with Towns at the 5 and the fans are batting around trading KAT for Giannis or even KD. Meanwhile since the all star break Julius has completely switched up his game into a full on facilitator and secondary scoring option so well that there's now serious talk of a 2-3 year extension, DDV has got into his role off the bench and is back to his dawg days, The wolves are red Hot and on top of that the Pistons 1st round pick that pretty much nobody thought would convey is almost certain to do so. In a year the wolves don't own their own #1 pick due to the Gobert trade.

I'm calling it a draw. If the wolves resign Randle to a friendly extension I might give it to the Wolves.

When the Knicks have Brunson and KAT healthy and playing together (most of the season), we've been top-five in offense. With Robinson and OG healthy and playing together (about one month of games), we've been top-six in defense.

However, we've had 0 games this season with our top-7 players healthy at the same time. Zero...and we're in April. I think that explains both our struggles against the three top teams and why we've "plateaued" in April.

That said, I've always liked Randle, and I defended him here (often against Twolves fans!) earlier in the season. Glad he's doing well now.

[UcanUwill]

I am far from big KAT believer, but even with that said, I still have far more faith in him coming into play offs, then I would with Randle. When healthy, Knicks are a good team, I think both Knicks and Wolves are/were better with KAT than with Randle/Donte. We will see how it goes, I do not have super high hopes in Knicks, but its mainly due to coaching/health worries, on paper I think Knicks is a top 4 team.

[DKB333]

I will need to wait until they fire their coach this summer and see what the team looks like when they actually play more then 5 guys.

[DKB333]

I will need to wait until they fire their coach this summer and see what the team looks like when they actually play more then 5 guys.

[THE J0KER]

When this trade happened, my first thought was (who won the trade):
NYK >>>> MIN

Now I changed my mind, my final opinion is:
NYK >>> MIN

[kingr]

When this trade happened, my first thought was:
NYK >>>> MIN

Now I changed my mind, my final opinion is:
NYK >>> MIN

Well said.

[cgf]

Seems to be working out well for both, which tends to happen when two all-nba guys get traded for each other.

[doogie_hauser]

The Knicks won the trade, unfortunately they slammed.the door shut on any potential championship contending side by that Mikal Bridges trade

P

[cgf]

New York is 7th in defrtg over the last 15 games. Some of us rated that Detroit pick from day one. And the joke is debating whether to trade OG + Robinson for Giannis, not Towns. That wouldn’t be ridiculous enough to be funny.

[sp6r=underrated]

The early returns were certainly one sided as KAT fit in perfectly with the Knicks offense and teams hadn't figured out how to attack them defensively. Meanwhile Randle looked like a terrible fit, DDV seemed either uninterested and the wolves were worse on both offense and defense.

Fast forward to April and it seems the Knicks have plateaued, they can't beat top teams and they're having the same problems defensively that Minny had for years with Towns at the 5 and the fans are batting around trading KAT for Giannis or even KD. Meanwhile since the all star break Julius has completely switched up his game into a full on facilitator and secondary scoring option so well that there's now serious talk of a 2-3 year extension, DDV has got into his role off the bench and is back to his dawg days, The wolves are red Hot and on top of that the Pistons 1st round pick that pretty much nobody thought would convey is almost certain to do so. In a year the wolves don't own their own #1 pick due to the Gobert trade.

I'm calling it a draw. If the wolves resign Randle to a friendly extension I might give it to the Wolves.

Who won a trade is a really bad prism to evaluate trades.

Minnesota was looking to dump salary. NY was looking to upgrade from Randle. Both team accomplished their objective. If you want to argue the gap between Towns and Randle is smaller than we believed in November, fine, but player value isn't why that trade was made. If the money was equal Minnesota and NY offered a refund on the trade Minnesota would take it.

[shrink]

Unless or until Towns misses time with another injury, NYK won the trade for talent.

[shrink]

Minnesota was looking to dump salary. NY was looking to upgrade from Randle. Both team accomplished their objective. If you want to argue the gap between Towns and Randle is smaller than we believed in November, fine, but player value isn't why that trade was made. If the money was equal Minnesota and NY offered a refund on the trade Minnesota would take it.

Excellent answer!

NYK wanted a talent upgrade and was willing to take on KAT’s contract to get it. They succeeded.
MIN wanted to address their future financial and risk issues, even if they had to make a small downgrade. They succeeded.

I don’t think either team would take back the trade if the other team offered.

[shi-woo]

I remember I liked the trade for both, as I thought MINN got equal value back with getting Dante, who is a legit starter in this league, good shooter, and plays with fire. I thought Knicks were going to be instant contenders, and MIN have to rely on Ant, but be more consistent with greater depth.

Now, I feel the same way, except the front offices of both teams really dropped the ball with the other moves they made. Both were genius moves and I tip my cap to the GM's, but neither worked out the way they wanted.

Trading up for a lottery pick in last years draft was awesome GMing, and I was so exited when it happened, until they called Robs name. People were so bugged out about the fake narrative of that draft, there was so many good players in it. I thought for sure they were going to draft McCain, Bub, or Carter, and still think that was the pick to make.

NY on the other hand made the Bridges trade, which you make given how little money he was making, but gave up to much and didn't make an auxiliary move. Going into the season with just KAT and Sims at the 5 was a bad ideal, and relying on Mitch to be a game changer was also a bad idea. They needed to swap Sims for Sharpe in that trade, and McBride should have been traded for someone like WCJ. I don't fault the moves they made, they just needed to find one more trade to make this team a legit title contender.

Rob has been better than I expected, but I still have concerns about him. IF the Wolves resign Randle, and Rob can replace what NAW has done next year AND they can bring back NAz, then I think Wolves won the trade given they were able to maintain their depth and cap number during the sale of the team.

NYK have had the dream season so far, with everyone being healthy, and roll players like Payne and McBride being consistent. Geting their wings to play the entire season with heavy minutes was a dream, and idk if they will be able to duplicate their health luck next year. They had a legit 9 man rotation, and still look the same as last year, even with more talent. We'll see how they do in the playoffs with Mitch and Jalen back, but right now it's looking like a lateral move, and that they might need a new coach going forward if they can't figure out how to optimize this team.

One of the rare trades that was equal for both teams, with the potential for the Wolves to win it if Rob turns into a good player (i'm aware this wasn't part of the trade), and Randle stays the course and signs for a lower number.

[Sealab2024]

Unless or until Towns misses time with another injury, NYK won the trade for talent.

I mean, you really can't judge the talent until the wolves make the pick in this years draft. What if the pick turns out to be a multiple time all star or something?

[shrink]

Unless or until Towns misses time with another injury, NYK won the trade for talent.

I mean, you really can't judge the talent until the wolves make the pick in this years draft. What if the pick turns out to be a multiple time all star or something?

That’s true, but if we are trying to make an assessment for today, we need to put realistic expectations on the pick.

It’s that same time dilemma we face when we evaluate any trade at any moment, before the years a player is under contract expires. If KAT wins NYK a ring this year, it’s clearly worth it. If he has another injury where he misses a great deal of time, the trade is a horrible mistake. Looking at it now, we are forced to only make realistic expectations for what the trade will be over the lifetime of the deal.

[Doctor MJ]

The early returns were certainly one sided as KAT fit in perfectly with the Knicks offense and teams hadn't figured out how to attack them defensively. Meanwhile Randle looked like a terrible fit, DDV seemed either uninterested and the wolves were worse on both offense and defense.

Fast forward to April and it seems the Knicks have plateaued, they can't beat top teams and they're having the same problems defensively that Minny had for years with Towns at the 5 and the fans are batting around trading KAT for Giannis or even KD. Meanwhile since the all star break Julius has completely switched up his game into a full on facilitator and secondary scoring option so well that there's now serious talk of a 2-3 year extension, DDV has got into his role off the bench and is back to his dawg days, The wolves are red Hot and on top of that the Pistons 1st round pick that pretty much nobody thought would convey is almost certain to do so. In a year the wolves don't own their own #1 pick due to the Gobert trade.

I'm calling it a draw. If the wolves resign Randle to a friendly extension I might give it to the Wolves.

So, I'm afraid that plateau thing is precisely why I've said previously I wouldn't want KAT on my team if I were trying to win a chip. I'd rather have KAT than Randle to be clear, but if acquiring KAT meant I was painting myself into a corner, I'd not want to do that.

So my feeling right now is that Minny's logic remains sound, but NY's bet isn't working out.

[tmorgan]

Unless or until Towns misses time with another injury, NYK won the trade for talent.

I mean, you really can't judge the talent until the wolves make the pick in this years draft. What if the pick turns out to be a multiple time all star or something?

If the goal is “finding an eventual winner”, then retrospectively judging a trade after picks turn into players, after players re-sign or don’t, after guys get hurt or don’t, after chemistry forms or it doesn’t, you can do that if you want to.

But the GMs and owners that make these deals can’t afford to look at things that way. There are WAY too many variables when extrapolating out into the future, and they’d drive themselves insane trying to predict and control all of them.

You can still judge a trade the day it was made — does it address needs, is the value reasonably fair, are there extenuating circumstances (typically financial) that have to be considered? Some trades are bad instantly (*cough*, Luka, *cough*), because the return just isn’t high enough. Minnesota still overpaid for Gobert, even though it has worked out reasonably well in terms of results. For this one, the KAT deal, I think the whole thing was reasonable at the time and has worked out pretty much as expected, except maybe the Pistons pick conveying so quickly. KAT is expensive, great on offense, ok on defense, but not really a center — as expected. Randle is talented in a lot of ways but sometimes a clunky fit — as expected. DDV can shoot, defend, and is an elite role player — as expected. If either team won this deal, they both did, by getting what they wanted.

Or to put it another way — if the pick Minnesota has from Detroit thru this deal somehow turns into a Hall of Famer that stays with the T-Wolves and wins multiple championships, people will bring up this deal and how trading KAT was the key to the dynasty. That’s just dumb. If they make a great pick and get lucky with it, that’s a huge win for Minnesota, but the pick they traded for was a lottery-protected selection from one of the worst teams in modern history last year. That was its value. It was the third and smallest bit of the deal they received. What happens from there is not the way to judge a trade, unless you’re back to what I mentioned at the beginning of this rant.

Anyway, good trade both ways. Made sense.

[cgf]

The early returns were certainly one sided as KAT fit in perfectly with the Knicks offense and teams hadn't figured out how to attack them defensively. Meanwhile Randle looked like a terrible fit, DDV seemed either uninterested and the wolves were worse on both offense and defense.

Fast forward to April and it seems the Knicks have plateaued, they can't beat top teams and they're having the same problems defensively that Minny had for years with Towns at the 5 and the fans are batting around trading KAT for Giannis or even KD. Meanwhile since the all star break Julius has completely switched up his game into a full on facilitator and secondary scoring option so well that there's now serious talk of a 2-3 year extension, DDV has got into his role off the bench and is back to his dawg days, The wolves are red Hot and on top of that the Pistons 1st round pick that pretty much nobody thought would convey is almost certain to do so. In a year the wolves don't own their own #1 pick due to the Gobert trade.

I'm calling it a draw. If the wolves resign Randle to a friendly extension I might give it to the Wolves.

So, I'm afraid that plateau thing is precisely why I've said previously I wouldn't want KAT on my team if I were trying to win a chip. I'd rather have KAT than Randle to be clear, but if acquiring KAT meant I was painting myself into a corner, I'd not want to do that.

So my feeling right now is that Minny's logic remains sound, but NY's bet isn't working out.

How is "plateauing" when you lose your best player instead of falling apart anything other than encouraging?

[littlerock2277]

Hard to tell with the Knicks, they still have a chance to contend in the playoffs I wouldn’t write them off if they are healthy. Brunson and KAT are definitely going to have to carry offensively to stand a chance against either the Cavs or Celtics.