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I personally think they should but somehow I doubt Dolan will have the stones to do it and Thibs is pretty close with GM Leon Rose.

He has been the longest tenured Knicks coach for quite a while now (IIRC since Pat Riley) but I get the impression Thibs can't take this Knicks team any further.

Having said that, not all of it is on the coach, their lack of quality bench and depth to cover Indy's perimeter shooters is a massive problem.

They have to do something drastic over Summer if they bomb out in the ECF, their chip window may not be as open as they think, with the Pacers, Pistons, Cavs and Magic all mostly rising young team with great kids set to dominate the East for the next 5-1]0 years.

doogie_hauser wrote:their lack of quality bench and depth

The bench sucks because he won't give the bench minutes even in mega blowouts. Take Game 5 and 6 vs Boston, both huge blowouts:

In G5 he only brought the bench in with 2:30 to go.
In G6 he only brought the bench in with 4 to go.

It has been like this his entire career. He doesn't give the bench minutes on the court and then he says he doesn't have a bench. If he actually gave them playing time maybe he would have one.

Watching Rick Brunson pull him aside and tell him to bring in the bench during the Boston series was telling. The guy didn't want to listen. He needed to hear it from like 3 people including Jalen Brunson.

Thibs just straight up hates making substitutions. It isn't just about the bench. He could have given KAT another go in Game 2. I mean hell you may as well see if KAT had made any adjustments but instead he was glued to the bench until fouls forced Thibs' hand.

they should. especially when you consider how many coaches are available right now, including ones that have won championships.

Mk0 wrote:Watching Rick Brunson pull him aside and tell him to bring in the bench during the Boston series was telling. The guy didn't want to listen. He needed to hear it from like 3 people including Jalen Brunson.

Thibs just straight up hates making substitutions. It isn't just about the bench. He could have given KAT another go in Game 2. I mean hell you may as well see if KAT had made any adjustments but instead he was glued to the bench until fouls forced Thibs' hand.

His refusal to use the bench creates several issues:

A. Proven bench players are less likely to want to play for his teams. Who wants to play for a guy who doesn't want to play you?
B. The bench players you have develop slower and are less likely to reach their full abilities.
C. You create fatigue issues.

I think it's time if they lose. He's brought them as far as he can.

Mk0 wrote:Watching Rick Brunson pull him aside and tell him to bring in the bench during the Boston series was telling. The guy didn't want to listen. He needed to hear it from like 3 people including Jalen Brunson.

Thibs just straight up hates making substitutions. It isn't just about the bench. He could have given KAT another go in Game 2. I mean hell you may as well see if KAT had made any adjustments but instead he was glued to the bench until fouls forced Thibs' hand.

Thibs logic chain with 5 minutes left in the 4th:

Close game: Keep the starters in.
Knicks up 20: The starters deserve a reward for their heady play and steady execution. I will leave them in.
Knicks down 20: The starters deserve PUNISHMENT for their lazy and inconsistent play. I will leave them in.

Capn'O wrote:I think it's time if they lose. He's brought them as far as he can.

Mk0 wrote:Watching Rick Brunson pull him aside and tell him to bring in the bench during the Boston series was telling. The guy didn't want to listen. He needed to hear it from like 3 people including Jalen Brunson.

Thibs just straight up hates making substitutions. It isn't just about the bench. He could have given KAT another go in Game 2. I mean hell you may as well see if KAT had made any adjustments but instead he was glued to the bench until fouls forced Thibs' hand.

Thibs logic chain with 5 minutes left in the 4th:

Close game: Keep the starters in.
Knicks up 20: The starters deserve a reward for their heady play and steady execution. I will leave them in.
Knicks down 20: The starters deserve PUNISHMENT for their lazy and inconsistent play. I will leave them in.

Thibs is the only American who doesn't understand why the Baatan Death March was a war crime.

The Pacers aren’t going to sweep the Knicks.

On the off chance they do, the issues go far beyond Thibs.

I think continuity would help the Knicks a lot. So I would be reluctant to fire him. The risk is not that the bench never develops enough to contribute, but that instead next year everyone is hurt.

sp6r=underrated wrote:The bench sucks because he won't give the bench minutes even in mega blowouts. Take Game 5 and 6 vs Boston, both huge blowouts:

In G5 he only brought the bench in with 2:30 to go.
In G6 he only brought the bench in with 4 to go.

It has been like this his entire career. He doesn't give the bench minutes on the court and then he says he doesn't have a bench. If he actually gave them playing time maybe he would have one.

Mk0 wrote:Watching Rick Brunson pull him aside and tell him to bring in the bench during the Boston series was telling. The guy didn't want to listen. He needed to hear it from like 3 people including Jalen Brunson.

Thibs just straight up hates making substitutions. It isn't just about the bench. He could have given KAT another go in Game 2. I mean hell you may as well see if KAT had made any adjustments but instead he was glued to the bench until fouls forced Thibs' hand.

sp6r=underrated wrote:His refusal to use the bench creates several issues:

A. Proven bench players are less likely to want to play for his teams. Who wants to play for a guy who doesn't want to play you?
B. The bench players you have develop slower and are less likely to reach their full abilities.
C. You create fatigue issues.

Capn'O wrote:Thibs logic chain with 5 minutes left in the 4th:

Close game: Keep the starters in.
Knicks up 20: The starters deserve a reward for their heady play and steady execution. I will leave them in.
Knicks down 20: The starters deserve PUNISHMENT for their lazy and inconsistent play. I will leave them in.

I'm gonna push back on this a little. It is true that Thibs has a tendency to run his guys into the ground, and his refusal to pull his starters at the end of that last Celtics game was particularly egregious. Like, I was shouting at the TV about it. But it's also true that the Knicks' bench isn't very good.

Mainly my push-back is because there is clear proof that Thibs will play a bench if the bench is good. Back when he coached the Bulls, in 2010-11 and 2011-12, one of our big assets was our deep bench. We were 10-11 deep. I think the term "bench mob" was coined in reference to those teams. And Thibs played those guys - Taj Gibson, Kyle Korver, Ronnie Brewer, Omer Asik, CJ Watson, old man Kurt Thomas - a healthy amount of minutes. In the 2011 playoffs when the Bulls went to the ECF, ten guys played 10+mpg(ok, one was 9.9mpg), and an eleventh played 8.5mpg.

For w/e reason it seems like the Knicks' f/o is completely infatuated with Thibs. I can't even imagine them really firing him. I think they must figure that they are incapable of actually hiring someone better for some reason.

They sold their depth for their starting 5. Simple as that. The one guy they could use off the bench, Pacome Dadiet, due to his size and shooting, is* still a couple years away.

This is the team they have for the next two years. It is what it is. Doesn't matter who the coach is, they will only get this far.

*Edit for misspell.

sp6r=underrated wrote:

doogie_hauser wrote:their lack of quality bench and depth

The bench sucks because he won't give the bench minutes even in mega blowouts. Take Game 5 and 6 vs Boston, both huge blowouts:

In G5 he only brought the bench in with 2:30 to go.
In G6 he only brought the bench in with 4 to go.

It has been like this his entire career. He doesn't give the bench minutes on the court and then he says he doesn't have a bench. If he actually gave them playing time maybe he would have one.

It has not been like that his entire career. He has an awesome bench mob in Chicago in 2011.

CJ Watson
Ronnie Brewer
Kyle Korver
Taj Gibson
Omer Asik

12-22 minutes per game across those 5 guys.

In 2015 his 5 bench guys got 19.6-27.3 MPG.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:For w/e reason it seems like the Knicks' f/o is completely infatuated with Thibs. I can't even imagine them really firing him. I think they must figure that they are incapable of actually hiring someone better for some reason.

As a Bulls fan I can tell you, his replacement may not be better.

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:I'm gonna push back on this a little. It is true that Thibs has a tendency to run his guys into the ground, and his refusal to pull his starters at the end of that last Celtics game was particularly egregious. Like, I was shouting at the TV about it. But it's also true that the Knicks' bench isn't very good.

Mainly my push-back is because there is clear proof that Thibs will play a bench if the bench is good. Back when he coached the Bulls, in 2010-11 and 2011-12, one of our big assets was our deep bench. We were 10-11 deep. I think the term "bench mob" was coined in reference to those teams. And Thibs played those guys - Taj Gibson, Kyle Korver, Ronnie Brewer, Omer Asik, CJ Watson, old man Kurt Thomas - a healthy amount of minutes. In the 2011 playoffs when the Bulls went to the ECF, ten guys played 10+mpg(ok, one was 9.9mpg), and an eleventh played 8.5mpg.

We've been yelling at our TVs all year.

Notably, the guys you mention are all vets or Taj Gibson, whose name will likely be spoken by Thibs' dying breath. He was very reluctant to include any of the rookies in meaningful minutes even when they showed promise. He seemingly has certain benchmarks for young players and has been wholly inflexible about them. While guys like Deuce were probably better for it we ironically, given his reputation, lose out in the short term by not playing these guys to preserve our core. More inexplicably, he keeps playing Payne over Delon Wright who actually played some great minutes for us in Brunson's absence towards the end of the season. If you don't develop your bench you end up here where you can't trust them.

The Knicks have one guy who can create shots on his own. They have a roster construction problem. Neither of their two main wings can create shots.

NZB2323 wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:

doogie_hauser wrote:their lack of quality bench and depth

The bench sucks because he won't give the bench minutes even in mega blowouts. Take Game 5 and 6 vs Boston, both huge blowouts:

In G5 he only brought the bench in with 2:30 to go.
In G6 he only brought the bench in with 4 to go.

It has been like this his entire career. He doesn't give the bench minutes on the court and then he says he doesn't have a bench. If he actually gave them playing time maybe he would have one.

It has not been like that his entire career. He has an awesome bench mob in Chicago in 2011.

CJ Watson
Ronnie Brewer
Kyle Korver
Taj Gibson
Omer Asik

12-22 minutes per game across those 5 guys.

In 2015 his 5 bench guys got 19.6-27.3 MPG.

A lot of people overlook the Knicks when they had IQ and Obi Toppin coming off the bench. While not a strong playoff team, he was playing 9-strong and that was the blueprint for the vision they front office initially had. Once they saw how top-heavy the contenders were, they shifted towards making sure they had a starting 5 that could compete.

Against Indiana, it's a simple "styles make fights" type of series. They simply don't match up well with the Pacers.

magee wrote:They sold their depth for their starting 5. Simple as that. The one guy they could use off the bench, Pacome Dadiet, due to his size and shooting, is* still a couple years away.

This is the team they have for the next two years. It is what it is. Doesn't matter who the coach is, they will only get this far.

*Edit for misspell.

I'm pretty optimistic on Dadiet but the other two rookies were more NBA ready. Wright, as somebody who could provide secondary playmaking duties and guard wings, would be very useful imo.

Against Indiana, it's a simple "styles make fights" type of series. They simply don't match up well with the Pacers.

This, I agree with 100%.

No! lol

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Mainly my push-back is because there is clear proof that Thibs will play a bench if the bench is good. Back when he coached the Bulls, in 2010-11 and 2011-12, one of our big assets was our deep bench. We were 10-11 deep. I think the term "bench mob" was coined in reference to those teams. And Thibs played those guys - Taj Gibson, Kyle Korver, Ronnie Brewer, Omer Asik, CJ Watson, old man Kurt Thomas - a healthy amount of minutes. In the 2011 playoffs when the Bulls went to the ECF, ten guys played 10+mpg(ok, one was 9.9mpg), and an eleventh played 8.5mpg.

Gibson and Korver were arguably better players than the guys starting at their positions. I to this day have no idea why Bogans was the SG starter, he was signed a month after Korver so it's not like he had more time in the system, and after Korver left the Bulls he turned into an all time great shooter. Asik was also a defensive wall who started all 82 games the first season after Houston signed him to that poison pill deal.

Thibs will play anybody who gives 100% effort on defense, if you're stuck on his bench its because you're slacking off.