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Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"?

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Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#1 » by Rubios » Wed Jun 11, 2025 8:25 am

Actual question, doesn't have a strong opinion on it.

Meaning Point Guard/Center with a case for best passer ever, a shot menace from anywhere and a unique way of playmaking touching the ball more times than any other player in history but keeping his usage% surprisingly low.

And a 3-4-5 that can cover half court with 4 strides, jump over anyone AND has a great eurostep.


*Important: being great or even the best has nothing to do with changing the game. KD has a case for the best scorer ever. Kawhi was the best player in the league for a small window of time. Kobe. As great as they were, they didn't bring any riddle to the opponent's team HC, anything unique or unseen. They were "just" insanely good.

Curry, LeBron (a guy that size moving that way and developing god-like playmaking skills), Harden did and most likely Wemby will do.

Do you consider Jokic and/or Giannis to shift any paradigm/s of basketball?

Thks!
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#2 » by UcanUwill » Wed Jun 11, 2025 8:34 am

Well, to a point maybe, they popularized inverted pick and roll far more. But overall, I would not say they changed the game, not like some rules were changed Shaq style or smth, I think Jokic in particular changed the way we look at some of these suspect looking international prospects, so there is that. Giannis probably changed the way scouts look at these semi pro leagues overseas and now there is greater belief that a teen from semi pro league could actually be something special.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#3 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Jun 11, 2025 10:07 am

Jokic popularized offences (after decades) run through the center in the high post, DHO, delayed actions. Now you can see those concepts used more and more even when less talented guys are available. Even Jaylin Williams at the end of the season, for the Thunder.
Giannis I am not sure, because you can't really be a lesser version of him and still be effective. I remember when people were seeing his potential, but couldn't imagine how he could develop his offensive game without a shot. This thing of using the space as a runway to then attack the basket and finish in traffic can work only for very few guys (Giannis and Zion). Get down a tier and you are Ben Simmons that becomes a negative on on half court offense, even before his injuries.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#4 » by Optms » Wed Jun 11, 2025 10:24 am

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Jokic popularized offences (after decades) run through the center in the high post, DHO, delayed actions. Now you can see those concepts used more and more even when less talented guys are available. Even Jaylin Williams at the end of the season, for the Thunder.
Giannis I am not sure, because you can't really be a lesser version of him and still be effective. I remember when people were seeing his potential, but couldn't imagine how he could develop his offensive game without a shot. This thing of using the space as a runway to then attack the basket and finish in traffic can work only for very few guys (Giannis and Zion). Get down a tier and you are Ben Simmons that becomes a negative on on half court offense, even before his injuries.


I hate to break it to you but that's always been around. Divac, Miller, Gasol brothers, Webber, Blake, Joakim, I can go on and on with centers passing from the high post. That isn't a new concept.

I am not saying he was better but James Harden had more of an impact on changing the game.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#5 » by art_tatum » Wed Jun 11, 2025 11:11 am

joker a little bit, i think youll see it more in the years to come with some clone centers bringing back the talented passing big man again.

but out of all the guys you mentioned only curry and harden changed the game.

lebron did technically change the game but outside of the court via player empowerment + superteam collusion.

harden for his stepback 3, and foul baiting in general did change how many star players played. also the rockets philosophy of 3 or layups along with gsw further affected the league.

curry obviously changed it the most, with the majority of players developing their 3 point shot, their range to 25+ feet, off the dribble, and off ball following his and the warriors success/media attention. look at how many 3s the warriors shot in 2015 vs now in boston. crazy.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#6 » by Saints14 » Wed Jun 11, 2025 11:27 am

Passing ability is definitely something that is evaluated in center prospects in a way that it wasn’t a decade ago, and you do see more offense run from the 5 in guys like Sabonis and Sengun so I would say that Jokic left his mark on the game. Giannis probably not…if a nearly 7 foot, long, uber athletic prospect with some feel came around I doubt he’d be any less coveted if Giannis didn’t exist
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#7 » by nomansland » Wed Jun 11, 2025 12:48 pm

Not really. To some degree you can mimic their styles, but those two guys a very unique players who are impossible to replicate.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#8 » by UglyBugBall » Wed Jun 11, 2025 1:02 pm

No, definitely not Giannis. I don’t think Jokic changed the game itself, but he did shift the idea of what a center can be. He’s not the first great passing big, but he’s the first to win an MVP and a title while playing like a point center. You could argue that’s changing the game, but I’d say it’s more about changing how we evaluate the center position than the game as a whole.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#9 » by JustBuzzin » Wed Jun 11, 2025 1:34 pm

Yeah they changed the game with their combined 2 championships. :roll:


LeBron changed the game.
Curry changed the game.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#10 » by Effigy » Wed Jun 11, 2025 2:07 pm

JustBuzzin wrote:Yeah they changed the game with their combined 2 championships. :roll:


LeBron changed the game.
Curry changed the game.


Curry for sure. How did Lebron change the game?
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#11 » by JustBuzzin » Wed Jun 11, 2025 2:22 pm

Effigy wrote:
JustBuzzin wrote:Yeah they changed the game with their combined 2 championships. :roll:


LeBron changed the game.
Curry changed the game.


Curry for sure. How did Lebron change the game?

If you don't understand how LeBron changed the game as the face of the NBA the past 2 decades then you must be new to basketball.

I suggest Google LeBron James and his resume will speak on how he changed the game sir. 8-)
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#12 » by Effigy » Wed Jun 11, 2025 2:49 pm

JustBuzzin wrote:
Effigy wrote:
JustBuzzin wrote:Yeah they changed the game with their combined 2 championships. :roll:


LeBron changed the game.
Curry changed the game.


Curry for sure. How did Lebron change the game?

If you don't understand how LeBron changed the game as the face of the NBA the past 2 decades then you must be new to basketball.

I suggest Google LeBron James and his resume will speak on how he changed the game sir. 8-)


Ah got it. He's a big star so he must have changed the game. You yourself have no idea how he actually did it so you can't give me any examples and are just telling me to figure it out :lol:
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#13 » by LePeekaboo » Wed Jun 11, 2025 2:59 pm

NO.

Ball in hoop is still the same (and best) way to win game for the past 100 years.

Giannis + drive to rim with vicious force = bucket
Jokic + fancy pass to open man = bucket

End goal is bucket. Game has not changed.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#14 » by playoffs » Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:01 pm

JustBuzzin wrote:
Effigy wrote:
JustBuzzin wrote:Yeah they changed the game with their combined 2 championships. :roll:


LeBron changed the game.
Curry changed the game.


Curry for sure. How did Lebron change the game?

If you don't understand how LeBron changed the game as the face of the NBA the past 2 decades then you must be new to basketball.

I suggest Google LeBron James and his resume will speak on how he changed the game sir. 8-)

Being the face of the NBA and changing the game are two different things. The only area I can think of in which LeBron had significant influence in how the game is conceptualized was that his joining Wade and Bosh in Miami created the idea that teams need a Big 3 in order to have a shot at winning a championship. Otherwise, he hasn't really ushered in an era of "mini LeBrons" or created a trend of championship teams centered around one big super-athletic wing who dominates the ball and is surrounded by shooters. There also haven't been any rule changes or even talk of changing the rules to either accommodate or inhibit the LeBron archetype.

All of this is not to add or take away from his legacy. Changing the game is not necessarily a measure of greatness. It's just harder to emulate being 6'9" and extraordinarily athletic than it is to (at least try to) emulate being 6'3" and a great shooter. Wemby won't change the game either, even if he becomes the GOAT.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#15 » by TheNG » Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:05 pm

Did Jokic change the game? Absolutely, but maybe not how you think. Forget fancy dunks or new plays. Jokic changed it by showing you can be the best in the world without even acting like you love the sport.

He's the only one who's truly open about basketball just being his job, not his whole life. He'd rather be with his horses, and he wins MVPs and championships while basically shrugging about it.

So, yeah, he changed the game. He gives hope to every fat kid who's good at basketball but doesn't actually like it. Now they know they can make millions in the NBA and still just want to go home to their actual hobbies.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#16 » by Effigy » Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:10 pm

playoffs wrote:
JustBuzzin wrote:
Effigy wrote:
Curry for sure. How did Lebron change the game?

If you don't understand how LeBron changed the game as the face of the NBA the past 2 decades then you must be new to basketball.

I suggest Google LeBron James and his resume will speak on how he changed the game sir. 8-)

Being the face of the NBA and changing the game are two different things. The only area I can think of in which LeBron had significant influence in how the game is conceptualized was that his joining Wade and Bosh in Miami created the idea that teams need a Big 3 in order to have a shot at winning a championship. Otherwise, he hasn't really ushered in an era of "mini LeBrons" or created a trend of championship teams centered around one big super-athletic wing who dominates the ball and is surrounded by shooters. There also haven't been any rule changes or even talk of changing the rules to either accommodate or inhibit the LeBron archetype.

All of this is not to add or take away from his legacy. Changing the game is not necessarily a measure of greatness. It's just harder to emulate being 6'9" and extraordinarily athletic than it is to (at least try to) emulate being 6'3" and a great shooter. Wemby won't change the game either, even if he becomes the GOAT.


Right. It doesn't take away from Lebron that he didn't change the game. He's still the second greatest player ever and a better player than other guys who did change it like Curry, Magic, Isiah, etc.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#17 » by HotelVitale » Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:14 pm

LePeekaboo wrote:NO.

Ball in hoop is still the same (and best) way to win game for the past 100 years.

Giannis + drive to rim with vicious force = bucket
Jokic + fancy pass to open man = bucket

End goal is bucket. Game has not changed.


The game has massively changed with the 3s, spacing, and pn'r strategy completely taking over. No one did that in 2002, and now literally every team designs all of their line-ups and sets for that strategy and runs most of their plays through it. There's still plenty of iso scoring here and there, and occasionally a straight-up post-up, but the game is definitely very different from 25 years ago when it was mostly post-ups, long 2s off curls, and isos.

Within that general shift, Jokic and Giannis have found new ways to use spacing to be volume creators, but I don't know that they've really changed much for the league as a whole. Teams use the best lead creators they can find, and most of those guys use pn'r to create space for their own shots or for others. Teams in like 2010 definitely used passing big men creators like Jokic, Jokic obviously took thing to a different level but that's mostly about him and can't be replicated. And tall big slashers like Giannis have always been a thing too (think like Dr J or Barkley), Giannis updated that for the spaced-out floor but again I'm not sure what he does can be replicated so I'd tend to think he hasn't really shifted the overall style of play much.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#18 » by Optms » Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:19 pm

Effigy wrote:
JustBuzzin wrote:Yeah they changed the game with their combined 2 championships. :roll:


LeBron changed the game.
Curry changed the game.


Curry for sure. How did Lebron change the game?


Before Lebron, the idea of a wing player was based around the Jordan/Kobe mold. Lebron made passing a thing. Then you have the all around game. Then you have the superteam era.

Which do you prefer?
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#19 » by Optms » Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:21 pm

TheNG wrote:Did Jokic change the game? Absolutely, but maybe not how you think. Forget fancy dunks or new plays. Jokic changed it by showing you can be the best in the world without even acting like you love the sport.

He's the only one who's truly open about basketball just being his job, not his whole life. He'd rather be with his horses, and he wins MVPs and championships while basically shrugging about it.

So, yeah, he changed the game. He gives hope to every fat kid who's good at basketball but doesn't actually like it. Now they know they can make millions in the NBA and still just want to go home to their actual hobbies.


Tim Duncan didn't exist? I swear people just want to give all these new stars fake trophies.

Call me when we actually see something new. Like Wemby. That I can get behind. Shai, Giannis, Tatum, Jokic, all great in their own right. But no, I am not seeing anything game changing. When we do, we will all know it.
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Re: Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"? 

Post#20 » by TheNG » Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:28 pm

Optms wrote:
TheNG wrote:Did Jokic change the game? Absolutely, but maybe not how you think. Forget fancy dunks or new plays. Jokic changed it by showing you can be the best in the world without even acting like you love the sport.

He's the only one who's truly open about basketball just being his job, not his whole life. He'd rather be with his horses, and he wins MVPs and championships while basically shrugging about it.

So, yeah, he changed the game. He gives hope to every fat kid who's good at basketball but doesn't actually like it. Now they know they can make millions in the NBA and still just want to go home to their actual hobbies.


Tim Duncan didn't exist? I swear people just want to give all these new stars fake trophies.

Call me when we actually see something new. Like Wemby. That I can get behind. Shai, Giannis, Tatum, Jokic, all great in their own right. But no, I am not seeing anything game changing. When we do, we will all know it.

Can you enlight us what Duncan had said that made him similar to Jokic regarding the aspect I mentioned?
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