Two-way players are overrated
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Two-way players are overrated
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Two-way players are overrated
This is probably more of an off-season topic and I'll lay out more of an argument then but I'll start it now anyway.
I see so many people make very simplistic assessments based mainly on the idea that since something is more balanced in a number of areas it is better. Not just in basketball but many aspects of life. People are seduced into thinking the all-in-one or jack-of-all-trades is better than the specialist and a lot of the time it just isn't. Indeed modern society is so more advanced due to specialization. But whenever posters around here talk about players they go into very reductive talk. There seems to be a default assumption that good at offense and good at defense is the same as great at offense/defense and average on the other. It's too simplistic a framework of looking at things.
I see so many people make very simplistic assessments based mainly on the idea that since something is more balanced in a number of areas it is better. Not just in basketball but many aspects of life. People are seduced into thinking the all-in-one or jack-of-all-trades is better than the specialist and a lot of the time it just isn't. Indeed modern society is so more advanced due to specialization. But whenever posters around here talk about players they go into very reductive talk. There seems to be a default assumption that good at offense and good at defense is the same as great at offense/defense and average on the other. It's too simplistic a framework of looking at things.
Re: Two-way players are overrated
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
Two-way players can more reliably impact the game. Meaning, if they are having an off night on one side of the ball, they can still provide value on the other side.
I actually think we need to shift the basketball value conversation more towards consistency and not as exclusively on efficiency.
I actually think we need to shift the basketball value conversation more towards consistency and not as exclusively on efficiency.
Re: Two-way players are overrated
- Dominator83
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
Its alot easier to build a scheme with guys that can play both ends of the floor, than it is to build a scheme with guys that are sieves on one end
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
A generalist can have a specialization.
Michael Jordan was a two way player but specialized in efficient volume scoring.
Hakeem was a two way player but specialized in dominanting defense.
Modern society isn't advanced due to specialization. It has advanced due to everyone being forced to have a common foundation in generalized skills that enables skill specialization in specific fields.
The people at the top of their field, if you look deeply, are generalists within their field.
Michael Jordan was a two way player but specialized in efficient volume scoring.
Hakeem was a two way player but specialized in dominanting defense.
Modern society isn't advanced due to specialization. It has advanced due to everyone being forced to have a common foundation in generalized skills that enables skill specialization in specific fields.
The people at the top of their field, if you look deeply, are generalists within their field.
Re: Two-way players are overrated
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
Ol Roy wrote:Two-way players can more reliably impact the game. Meaning, if they are having an off night on one side of the ball, they can still provide value on the other side.
I actually think we need to shift the basketball value conversation more towards consistency and not as exclusively on efficiency.
I think you are conflating two ideas of consistency and in basketball in particular you are limiting the field of view too much into the kind of artificial dichotomy of offense and defense that seems to prevail. Your argument seems to be in the line of if your shot is not falling you can still do things on the defensive end. However there is also driving to the basket more and getting points through drawing more fouls.
Re: Two-way players are overrated
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
threethehardway wrote:A generalist can have a specialization.
Michael Jordan was a two way player but specialized in efficient volume scoring.
Hakeem was a two way player but specialized in dominanting defense.
Modern society isn't advanced due to specialization. It has advanced due to everyone being forced to have a common foundation in generalized skills that enables skill specialization in specific fields.
The people at the top of their field, if you look deeply, are generalists within their field.
I'm not sure of that last line. To a certain extent they may have a general foundation but you seem to imply those at the top of their field are primarily generalists and that would seem false. If you consider an ER doctor a doctor at the top of their field I guess but I don't think that would be the case if you consider a surgeon as a doctor at the top of their field.
Re: Two-way players are overrated
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
I think the love of 2-way players is more on the complementary starter & roleplayer level. I don't know anyone who would rather have a random 2-way player like Josh Hart over say, Joker or Luka.
Re: Two-way players are overrated
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
Society and basketball are a bit different but OP is 100% right about this.
99.999999% of people don’t advance society. We just show up to wtv version of society is in place and live our lives. We don’t invent anything or change how things are done. We’re the muscle.
The .000001% - the Albert Einsteins, the etc are the ones that disproportionately advance us. They create the new technology or knowledge that jumps us to the next level. They see beyond what is there now and see what is not there. It’s actually amazing how disproportionate it is.
The .0000001% psychopaths from the “bad” side also have this impact. They create the necessity of a safety first sort of world approach to try and stop the carnage they wreak on the mentality and warm and fuzzy feeling of society.
In basketball it’s different though. This difference is far less pronounced but the same concept applies. Successful teams have players that specialize in skills. Having them be well rounded helps. But the other way around never works. You can’t have a team full of Luke Waltons or Draymond Greens. You need these guys as the muscle to the specialists.
99.999999% of people don’t advance society. We just show up to wtv version of society is in place and live our lives. We don’t invent anything or change how things are done. We’re the muscle.
The .000001% - the Albert Einsteins, the etc are the ones that disproportionately advance us. They create the new technology or knowledge that jumps us to the next level. They see beyond what is there now and see what is not there. It’s actually amazing how disproportionate it is.
The .0000001% psychopaths from the “bad” side also have this impact. They create the necessity of a safety first sort of world approach to try and stop the carnage they wreak on the mentality and warm and fuzzy feeling of society.
In basketball it’s different though. This difference is far less pronounced but the same concept applies. Successful teams have players that specialize in skills. Having them be well rounded helps. But the other way around never works. You can’t have a team full of Luke Waltons or Draymond Greens. You need these guys as the muscle to the specialists.
Re: Two-way players are overrated
- Texas Chuck
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
This is a false dichotomy built on a flimsy premise with an effort to appear to be the smartest guy in the room. And your responses only solidify that.
This isn't 1950's Iowa high school girl's games that were literally 2 separate 3 v 3 games where 3 girls from each team only played offense and only played defense.
And low turnovers appears to be an offensive stat, but it also really helps your defense. Good spacing -- also helps your defense. Good defensive rebounding guards also help your offense because you start in transition --- see Kidd, Westbrook, Luka as great examples.
All we have to do is look at the Finals and who is getting minutes to see that having guys who play both ways is super valuable. Doesn't mean Rudy Gobert and Luka Doncic don't have so much impact at their specialty to be valuable, but we saw last year how effective Luka could be defensively in the playoffs even while hurt and Rudy Gobert played a huge role in all those great Jazz offenses so even guys who seem one way, really aren't.
This is literally nothing.
This isn't 1950's Iowa high school girl's games that were literally 2 separate 3 v 3 games where 3 girls from each team only played offense and only played defense.
And low turnovers appears to be an offensive stat, but it also really helps your defense. Good spacing -- also helps your defense. Good defensive rebounding guards also help your offense because you start in transition --- see Kidd, Westbrook, Luka as great examples.
All we have to do is look at the Finals and who is getting minutes to see that having guys who play both ways is super valuable. Doesn't mean Rudy Gobert and Luka Doncic don't have so much impact at their specialty to be valuable, but we saw last year how effective Luka could be defensively in the playoffs even while hurt and Rudy Gobert played a huge role in all those great Jazz offenses so even guys who seem one way, really aren't.
This is literally nothing.
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
Weird time to post this when Siakam just won ECFMVP and the Pacers are up 2-1 in the NBA Finals.
How many “offense only” players would we rank over Siakam? Jokic and Luka for sure, but after that I’m not positive.
How many “offense only” players would we rank over Siakam? Jokic and Luka for sure, but after that I’m not positive.
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
WarriorGM wrote:I'm not sure of that last line. To a certain extent they may have a general foundation but you seem to imply those at the top of their field are primarily generalists and that would seem false. If you consider an ER doctor a doctor at the top of their field I guess but I don't think that would be the case if you consider a surgeon as a doctor at the top of their field.
They are generalists with a specialization.
A surgeon is a doctor that is trained to specialize in surgery. And within surgery, there are different types of surgery, which they know about and probably can perform but not at the level which someone that specializes in that particular brand on surgery.
Take for example of a top brain surgeon.
Not only would they know foundational medical and surgerical practices but also neurology, neuroscience, and cognitive science.
When we talk about two way players, we are talking about players that have mastered the basics of being a high level NBA starter on both sides of the ball.
They can pass, shoot, defend and rebound at a starter level for their position. Then they have a specialization which puts them over the top.
That's the difference between Steve Kerr and Nembhard.Steve Kerr is a better pure shooter than Nembhard but he Nembhard can do so much more.
People take for granted what it actually takes to be the best in their field and assume the baseline skills is a given.
Most people at the bottom of a field are specialists. They only know how to do one thing and don't want to learn the foundations of related fields they are not actively engaged in.
A top software developer at Meta should be able to build distributed systems, UI and full-stack development on top of specializing in an area that complements a broad skill set for their role.
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
NZB2323 wrote:Weird time to post this when Siakam just won ECFMVP and the Pacers are up 2-1 in the NBA Finals.
How many “offense only” players would we rank over Siakam? Jokic and Luka for sure, but after that I’m not positive.
Tyrese Haliburton?
Re: Two-way players are overrated
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
Two way players as role players are 1000% not overrated. I do agree that when debating two superstars/ATG's, simply saying one is a two-way player and that automatically gives them the edge over the other is a lazy way to analyze basketball, things are certainly more nuanced than that.
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
Disagree, I feel that they are even more valuable today
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
WarriorGM wrote:This is probably more of an off-season topic and I'll lay out more of an argument then but I'll start it now anyway.
I see so many people make very simplistic assessments based mainly on the idea that since something is more balanced in a number of areas it is better. Not just in basketball but many aspects of life. People are seduced into thinking the all-in-one or jack-of-all-trades is better than the specialist and a lot of the time it just isn't. Indeed modern society is so more advanced due to specialization. But whenever posters around here talk about players they go into very reductive talk. There seems to be a default assumption that good at offense and good at defense is the same as great at offense/defense and average on the other. It's too simplistic a framework of looking at things.
Mixing up societal level and the NBA level.
There are five players per team on the floor, they play two ways. Using math that’s ten. Everyone of those ten you go below your opponent in is a problem. Obviously there is variation in how far up or down in any one of the ten segments but the reality remains…every one of those ten a team gives to their opponent is problematic and a negative.
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
I lol’d at the title and then I opened and saw who the OP is and LOLd again without reading what I’m sure is a bunch of nonsense gibberish. Thanks for the effortless laughs G!!
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
kodo wrote:I think the love of 2-way players is more on the complementary starter & roleplayer level. I don't know anyone who would rather have a random 2-way player like Josh Hart over say, Joker or Luka.
I think it’s more important to have highly paid stars who aren’t significantly weak on one end. Guys like Towns and Gobert are tough to win with because they’re absolutely useless on one end. Your top guys playing 40 minutes in the playoffs need to be at least functional on both ends. Not everyone offensive star needs to be a top defender but they can’t be a total sieve like Towns. Likewise Gobert is so bad on offense his teams play 4 vs 5.
Re: Two-way players are overrated
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
One-way defensive players are overrated.
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
WarriorGM wrote:NZB2323 wrote:Weird time to post this when Siakam just won ECFMVP and the Pacers are up 2-1 in the NBA Finals.
How many “offense only” players would we rank over Siakam? Jokic and Luka for sure, but after that I’m not positive.
Tyrese Haliburton?
I feel like his defense has been pretty good.
I guess we would also rank Curry above Siakam?
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Re: Two-way players are overrated
Stan wrote:Two way players as role players are 1000% not overrated. I do agree that when debating two superstars/ATG's, simply saying one is a two-way player and that automatically gives them the edge over the other is a lazy way to analyze basketball, things are certainly more nuanced than that.
Very hard to hide an offensive specialist who gives no effort on defence in the play/offs.
However there have been players who were less elite defensively than offensively who have won multiple titles with appropriate teams built around them, Steph Curry and probably Magic and Jokic among them.