Is it possible to be called for a push off while not extending your arm?

[sikma42]

You can generate a lot of force without “extending your arm.” I’m sure I could knock someone out with that range of motion and severely hurt someone.


Does it matter if you displace the defender? Does it matter if it’s enough force to break a rib?

Honestly asking for those in the know about the rule and current interpretation. Can someone let me know.


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[sikma42]

Here an example posted by the NBA re the current interpretation of the push off. Oddly enough they use Jokic in the video.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/offensive-foul-dribbler-pushes-off-on-step-back/

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[Myth]

If you use an excessive amount of force with any part of the body, they will call a foul.

[sikma42]

If you use an excessive amount of force with any part of the body, they will call a foul.

Enough force to knock someone to the ground. That seems excessive and they don’t call it.


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[BelgradeNugget]

Here an example posted by the NBA re the current interpretation of the push off. Oddly enough they use Jokic in the video.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/offensive-foul-dribbler-pushes-off-on-step-back/

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If this is example of push off foul, I don't know how SGA or Tatum can finish any game without 6 fouls.

[SA37]

Apparently not, at least if you are SGA

Obviously he isn't the only one who does it, but it's just been so flagrant in the Finals you wonder why there's a rule book at all. If the refs are letting that go because they're letting more physicality from defenders, then sure, I guess.

[Myth]

If you use an excessive amount of force with any part of the body, they will call a foul.

Enough force to knock someone to the ground. That seems excessive and they don’t call it.


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Refs are definitely inconsistent.

[ImmortalD24]

Bron been getting away with excessive offensive contact his whole career. Get on with it.

[og15]

Here an example posted by the NBA re the current interpretation of the push off. Oddly enough they use Jokic in the video.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/offensive-foul-dribbler-pushes-off-on-step-back/

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If this is example of push off foul, I don't know how SGA or Tatum can finish any game without 6 fouls.

Jokic himself has adjusted and uses his off arm without extending to trigger a call. He's another super physical offensive player to go against.

What I definitely learned as I played better competition when I was younger was that pushing off was a skill for a lot of guys. I didn't realize how many guys did it until the level of comp increased and I was like, "isn't this a foul?".

SGA does the chicken wing, if you see that example of Jokic, he extends the arm past that chicken wing position. From what I've seen, if you put out the arm like an armbar like you're protecting the ball and avoid extending your forearm, even if you lean into the defender with that chicken wing, you can really get away with push offs quite consistently.

I think there needs to be a look into this, but the refs have also allowed an increased level of "handiness" by defenses, so question is whether it balances in a sense.

[BelgradeNugget]

Here an example posted by the NBA re the current interpretation of the push off. Oddly enough they use Jokic in the video.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/offensive-foul-dribbler-pushes-off-on-step-back/

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If this is example of push off foul, I don't know how SGA or Tatum can finish any game without 6 fouls.

Jokic himself has adjusted and uses his off arm without extending to trigger a call. He's another super physical offensive player to go against.

What I definitely learned as I played better competition when I was younger was that pushing off was a skill for a lot of guys. I didn't realize how many guys did it until the level of comp increased and I was like, "isn't this a foul?".

SGA does the chicken wing, if you see that example of Jokic, he extends the arm past that chicken wing position. From what I've seen, if you put out the arm like an armbar like you're protecting the ball and avoid extending your forearm, even if you lean into the defender with that chicken wing, you can really get away with push offs quite consistently.

I think there needs to be a look into this, but the refs have also allowed an increased level of "handiness" by defenses, so question is whether it balances in a sense.

I'm not sure what extended arm is but in these highlights push offs are at 0:29 (with extended arm), 0:40, 1:01. At 2:18 and 3:00 you have some marshal art hits with elbows. It is some UFC s*it

Watch on YouTube

[FarBeyondDriven]

it's moronic that they allow ANY type of push off. This is a huge advantage for offensive players and they started ignoring this b.s. a decade ago and along with the other things they ignore, it's ruined the game. "chicken-wing" push offs are just as blatant and should be called as much as arm extended push offs. But if they did this, the "stars" would become ordinary players. Can't have that can we?

[Mavrelous]

Here an example posted by the NBA re the current interpretation of the push off. Oddly enough they use Jokic in the video.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/offensive-foul-dribbler-pushes-off-on-step-back/

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If this is example of push off foul, I don't know how SGA or Tatum can finish any game without 6 fouls.

Jokic himself has adjusted and uses his off arm without extending to trigger a call. He's another super physical offensive player to go against.

What I definitely learned as I played better competition when I was younger was that pushing off was a skill for a lot of guys. I didn't realize how many guys did it until the level of comp increased and I was like, "isn't this a foul?".

SGA does the chicken wing, if you see that example of Jokic, he extends the arm past that chicken wing position. From what I've seen, if you put out the arm like an armbar like you're protecting the ball and avoid extending your forearm, even if you lean into the defender with that chicken wing, you can really get away with push offs quite consistently.

I think there needs to be a look into this, but the refs have also allowed an increased level of "handiness" by defenses, so question is whether it balances in a sense.

You can't be serious...

[manlisten]

Apparently not, at least if you are SGA

Obviously he isn't the only one who does it, but it's just been so flagrant in the Finals you wonder why there's a rule book at all. If the refs are letting that go because they're letting more physicality from defenders, then sure, I guess.

That was my interpretation. Nesmith was clearly holding SGA, SGA pushed him off. Fair game imo.

[BelgradeNugget]

...and all NBA had to do is not to promote this as one of 60 greatest playoff moments, but clear, uncalled foul as it was

Watch on YouTube

[og15]

If this is example of push off foul, I don't know how SGA or Tatum can finish any game without 6 fouls.

Jokic himself has adjusted and uses his off arm without extending to trigger a call. He's another super physical offensive player to go against.

What I definitely learned as I played better competition when I was younger was that pushing off was a skill for a lot of guys. I didn't realize how many guys did it until the level of comp increased and I was like, "isn't this a foul?".

SGA does the chicken wing, if you see that example of Jokic, he extends the arm past that chicken wing position. From what I've seen, if you put out the arm like an armbar like you're protecting the ball and avoid extending your forearm, even if you lean into the defender with that chicken wing, you can really get away with push offs quite consistently.

I think there needs to be a look into this, but the refs have also allowed an increased level of "handiness" by defenses, so question is whether it balances in a sense.

You can't be serious...

The trainers teach the push off, they teach how to push off without getting offensive fouls. I never got the training, but the better level I went back 10-15 years ago, guys were using little push offs and I'm asking, wth, and you weren't getting an offensive unless they fully extended.

No, I'm serious, they don't call them as often on those chicken wings. You really have to do something crazy with the chicken wing for the refs to call an offensive. You can be in denial about it, but it's been that way for quite some time as far as I can remember.

Also the league has allowed more hand fighting and handiness through the season, more so through the playoffs and then certainly this series.

[SA37]

...and all NBA had to do is not to promote this as one of 60 greatest playoff moments, but clear, uncalled foul as it was

Watch on YouTube

c'mon, bruh. Russell tripped over the greatness and fumbled the moment

[Mavrelous]

Jokic himself has adjusted and uses his off arm without extending to trigger a call. He's another super physical offensive player to go against.

What I definitely learned as I played better competition when I was younger was that pushing off was a skill for a lot of guys. I didn't realize how many guys did it until the level of comp increased and I was like, "isn't this a foul?".

SGA does the chicken wing, if you see that example of Jokic, he extends the arm past that chicken wing position. From what I've seen, if you put out the arm like an armbar like you're protecting the ball and avoid extending your forearm, even if you lean into the defender with that chicken wing, you can really get away with push offs quite consistently.

I think there needs to be a look into this, but the refs have also allowed an increased level of "handiness" by defenses, so question is whether it balances in a sense.

You can't be serious...

The trainers teach the push off, they teach how to push off without getting offensive fouls. I never got the training, but the better level I went back 10-15 years ago, guys were using little push offs and I'm asking, wth, and you weren't getting an offensive unless they fully extended.

No, I'm serious, they don't call them as often on those chicken wings. You really have to do something crazy with the chicken wing for the refs to call an offensive. You can be in denial about it, but it's been that way for quite some time as far as I can remember.

Everyone pushes off, but what Jokic is doing in the video is benign compared to SGA, Tatum or Luka, the controversial push off SGA got away with is way worse than this.
More importantly, we can't comcede that SGA fouls are legit because they are technically fouls and then turn around and say push off isn't a foul because no one calls it.

[og15]

If this is example of push off foul, I don't know how SGA or Tatum can finish any game without 6 fouls.

Jokic himself has adjusted and uses his off arm without extending to trigger a call. He's another super physical offensive player to go against.

What I definitely learned as I played better competition when I was younger was that pushing off was a skill for a lot of guys. I didn't realize how many guys did it until the level of comp increased and I was like, "isn't this a foul?".

SGA does the chicken wing, if you see that example of Jokic, he extends the arm past that chicken wing position. From what I've seen, if you put out the arm like an armbar like you're protecting the ball and avoid extending your forearm, even if you lean into the defender with that chicken wing, you can really get away with push offs quite consistently.

I think there needs to be a look into this, but the refs have also allowed an increased level of "handiness" by defenses, so question is whether it balances in a sense.

I'm not sure what extended arm is but in these highlights push offs are at 0:29 (with extended arm), 0:40, 1:01. At 2:18 and 3:00 you have some marshal art hits with elbows. It is some UFC s*it

Watch on YouTube

If they keep the arm in like a chicken wing, even if guys push or lean into the defender, as long as it's of course not excessive (and none of those are), they get away with push offs more often than if they extend the forearm at the elbow joint.

I'm simply explaining what I've seen over time. I'm not suggesting this is how it should be, but guys are always figuring out things that they can use to get away with stuff.

[lambchop]

Jokic himself has adjusted and uses his off arm without extending to trigger a call. He's another super physical offensive player to go against.

What I definitely learned as I played better competition when I was younger was that pushing off was a skill for a lot of guys. I didn't realize how many guys did it until the level of comp increased and I was like, "isn't this a foul?".

SGA does the chicken wing, if you see that example of Jokic, he extends the arm past that chicken wing position. From what I've seen, if you put out the arm like an armbar like you're protecting the ball and avoid extending your forearm, even if you lean into the defender with that chicken wing, you can really get away with push offs quite consistently.

I think there needs to be a look into this, but the refs have also allowed an increased level of "handiness" by defenses, so question is whether it balances in a sense.

I'm not sure what extended arm is but in these highlights push offs are at 0:29 (with extended arm), 0:40, 1:01. At 2:18 and 3:00 you have some marshal art hits with elbows. It is some UFC s*it

Watch on YouTube

If they keep the arm in like a chicken wing, even if guys push or lean into the defender, as long as it's of course not excessive (and none of those are), they get away with push offs more often than if they extend the forearm at the elbow joint.

I'm simply explaining what I've seen over time. I'm not suggesting this is how it should be, but guys are always figuring out things that they can use to get away with stuff.

Yep, good observation. When I lived and played in Spain, the skills trainers we worked with would teach us how to use the off arm. It makes a huge difference and is the right way to be physical against physical defenders. It's legal in FIBA play too, but, similarly to the gather step, many FIBA and NBA fans aren't aware of it.

Here is a whole video tutorial on how to grab and push off legally.

Watch on YouTube

I was looking for more FIBA examples, but the issue is that we don't really have prolific physical off the dribble mid range scorers over here, like SGA or Kawhi, which is a key area where the use of that arm is vital. Kevin Punter is money from mid range, but he tends to dribble forward or laterally into space before rising up. TJ Shorts is very similar in that regard.

[durden_tyler]

Tough defenders are penalized because they won’t fall, and even try to get back in play. Maybe players should start flopping too just to get the ref’s attention.


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