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If we're looking for team building lessons from the 2025 playoffs and the finals in particular, the one that stands out to me is that both OKC and Indiana invested heavily on guards even when they already had a deep rotation (the return of the more traditional PF/C combo is another but that's a separate topic). Not just any guards, but specifically the big, long, 6'4" - 6'6" types with on ball skills and tenacious defense.

The Thunder, despite already having SGA (6'6") and Lu Dort (6'4") at the beginning of their rebuild, have drafted a guard in the lottery every year since 2021. Not only that, but last offseason they extended Aaron Wiggins (6'5") and Isaiah Joe (6'3"), traded for Alex Caruso (6'5"), and drafted Dillon Jones (more of a F, but 6'6") and Ajay Mitchell (6'5") outside of the lottery. I remember questioning why they drafted Cason Wallace when Lu Dort was on the team (maybe Wallace is Dort's successor?), and then after trading for Caruso it became clear that they were purposefully loading up on those types of players to play together.

The Pacers have also invested in these types of guards when it didn't look like an immediate need, drafting Chris Duarte and Bennedict Mathurin (both 6'6") in 2021 and 2022, using a high 2nd round pick on Andrew Nembhard (6'5") when they already had Haliburton and McConnell and trading for Aaron Nesmith (6'6"). For a few years the criticism with the Pacers was that they had a bunch of shooting guards but no wings, and interestingly the guy they invested a lottery pick in that is wing sized (Jarace Walker - 6'8") is not in their playoff rotation.

It's not just OKC and Indiana, in recent years this player type has been critical for Boston (Derrick White and Jrue Holiday), Denver (Bruce Brown and Christian Braun), and other high level playoff contributors (Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Josh Hart, Brandin Podziemski).

The commonality with these players other than their height and wingspan is that they generally came into the league having played PG in college or internationally, but weren't necessarily projected as PG prospects. But their on-ball experience gave them a baseline level of skill and IQ to act as secondary creators when called upon, their quick instincts translate on defense, and their size gave them enough positional versatility to be able to stack those skills together in lineups with at least 3 of these big guard types playing together. For years the "Big Wing", the 6'8" all-around versatile forward with shooting and some ball skills was seen as the ideal player archetype and that teams would want to hoard as many as possible. But I wonder if in the current NBA these slightly smaller but more skilled, more tenacious big guards are the new ideal.

Didn't a wing just score 40 last night?

Most of these guys have longer wingspans than your typical nba point guard. But they have the quickness of a guard.

So what you're really saying is draft smaller wings vs taller wings...if you can't get great taller wings? Cause...6'4-6'7 guys are traditionally wings and I wouldn't call anyone on OKC a true point guard....

OldeBoy wrote:Didn't a wing just score 40 last night?

J Dub was drafted as a SG prospect that played PG in college

Saints14 wrote:

OldeBoy wrote:Didn't a wing just score 40 last night?

J Dub was drafted as a SG prospect that played PG in college

SG is a wing...wings traditionally were the 2's and 3's. And yes in the modern game the 4 has become a wing often, but not always

dhsilv2 wrote:So what you're really saying is draft smaller wings vs taller wings...if you can't get great taller wings? Cause...6'4-6'7 guys are traditionally wings and I wouldn't call anyone on OKC a true point guard....

To use this years draft as an example, I'd argue that VJ Edgecome's player type is more in vogue than Ace Bailey's, which is something you wouldn't have said for the past decade

I'd say wings worked pretty well for Boston last season.

Saints14 wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:So what you're really saying is draft smaller wings vs taller wings...if you can't get great taller wings? Cause...6'4-6'7 guys are traditionally wings and I wouldn't call anyone on OKC a true point guard....

To use this years draft as an example, I'd argue that VJ Edgecome's player type is more in vogue than Ace Bailey's, which is something you wouldn't have said for the past decade

OK, just pointing out. Edgecome is like the definition of a wing. A SG/SF hybrid at 6'5. Bailey is...I don't really know what to call these 6'10 skinny dudes anymore, but he's not a wing as I'd think of it traditionally.

I'd say it's more important the archetypes of the guards that have dominated the Finals the past two years.

Boston: Brown, Jrue, D. White
Pacers: Hali, Nembhart, McConnell, Mathurin
OKC: SGA, Dort, Caruso, Wallace

All these guys contribute offensively and can defend their position.

dhsilv2 wrote:

Saints14 wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:So what you're really saying is draft smaller wings vs taller wings...if you can't get great taller wings? Cause...6'4-6'7 guys are traditionally wings and I wouldn't call anyone on OKC a true point guard....

To use this years draft as an example, I'd argue that VJ Edgecome's player type is more in vogue than Ace Bailey's, which is something you wouldn't have said for the past decade

OK, just pointing out. Edgecome is like the definition of a wing. A SG/SF hybrid at 6'5. Bailey is...I don't really know what to call these 6'10 skinny dudes anymore, but he's not a wing as I'd think of it traditionally.

Yeah I really should have specified big wings no longer being the ideal because "wing" can be very broad", though I'd classify a lot of those players mentioned in the OP as big guards who play the 2 or 3 because they're playing next to other guards. To use another example: Carter Bryant is gaining steam as a lotto pick, and he fits what we think of as an ideal big wing prospect. My argument here is that teams like OKC and Indiana would pass on Bryant in favor of taking a swing on a guy like Traore

dhsilv2 wrote:So what you're really saying is draft smaller wings vs taller wings...

Yep, the guys OKC picked up are mostly wings. Guard-type wings rather than forward-type wings, but wings -- as with, say, MJ and Harp on those '96 to '98 Bulls teams.

Saints14 wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

Saints14 wrote:
To use this years draft as an example, I'd argue that VJ Edgecome's player type is more in vogue than Ace Bailey's, which is something you wouldn't have said for the past decade

OK, just pointing out. Edgecome is like the definition of a wing. A SG/SF hybrid at 6'5. Bailey is...I don't really know what to call these 6'10 skinny dudes anymore, but he's not a wing as I'd think of it traditionally.

Yeah I really should have specified big wings no longer being the ideal because "wing" can be very broad", though I'd classify a lot of those players mentioned in the OP as big guards who play the 2 or 3 because they're playing next to other guards. To use another example: Carter Bryant is gaining steam as a lotto pick, and he fits what we think of as an ideal big wing prospect. My argument here is that teams like OKC and Indiana would pass on Bryant in favor of taking a swing on a guy like Traore

This is kinda the historical and traditional view of basketball. Shooting guard while yes, we call them a guard. They are a wing.

Big guards with guard skills and wing size/length, I'm not sure this is a lesson lol

What I mean is that technically a lot of people know this, the problem is that actually getting a lot of these players who are good on your team is the hard part.

I agree, get good players. I hope Dallas tries to get more good players as well.

From what I've gathered of Presti's values:

1. How many positions can you guard?
2. How fast can you process information and make decisions on the court?
3. How good of a fit will you be culturally with the current group?

Lessons as always:

1) have MVP level player

2) have other all-star

3) have floor spacing C. If not available, can substitute with Steph Curry

So are we talking specifically about 6-7 to 6-9 players who can play SF?

Pacers have Siakam.

og15 wrote:Big guards with guard skills and wing size/length, I'm not sure this is a lesson lol

What I mean is that technically a lot of people know this, the problem is that actually getting a lot of these players who are good on your team is the hard part.

Is it really that obvious? For years the 6'4"/6'5" off-ball guard was overlooked unless they were an elite shooter - undersized for a wing, not good enough on-ball to be a lead guard. Plenty of people have been clamoring for these two teams in particular to invest in a bigger, 6'7"-6'8" forward type. Instead they just kept loading up on this player type, and across the league this specific type of guard has been making a significant impact on title teams

More than one way to build a contender